The thing that has been bothering me for a while is that the USB spec allows for software detection of capabilities. You can read the emarker data and see the supported protocols, speeds, voltages, etc.
But there is not standard for usb controllers to present this data to the OS. So it’s stuck in the low level firmware and never passed up. In theory we could have a popup box that tells you that both your computer and other device support higher speeds/more power, but your cable is limiting it.
Apple seems best able to do this since they control the hardware and OS, yet they aren’t doing it either. Users are just left to be confused about why things are slow.
> In theory we could have a popup box that tells you that both your computer and other device support higher speeds/more power, but your cable is limiting it.
I'm pretty sure my old Dell XPS laptop with Windows 10 had pop-ups just like this.
I wonder if it's possible for a regular machine with two high speed ports to do a cable test by itself. Maybe it can't test all the attributes but could it at least verify speed claims in software?
There would be too many factors involved for a proper test. Many laptop USB controllers would probably not even have the capacity to run two ports at full speed simultaneously.
> But there is not standard for usb controllers to present this data to the OS. So it’s stuck in the low level firmware and never passed up. In theory we could have a popup box that tells you that both your computer and other device support higher speeds/more power, but your cable is limiting it.
There is. I used to use a KVM with USB 2 ports connected to my PC's USB 3 port, to which I connected a monitor with integrated USB 3 hub to drive my keyboard and mouse. Windows would show a popup every time telling me that I should use a faster cable.
There are also popups telling me that my laptop is connected to a "slow" usb-c charger.
Oh, they very much do. But like with everything in technology, they can do fuck all about it, so they resign and maybe complain to you occasionally if you're the designated (in)voluntary tech support person for your family and friends.
Regular people hate technology, both for how magical and how badly broken it is, but they've long learned they're powerless to change it - nobody listens to their complaints, and the whole market is supply-driven, i.e. you get to choose from what vendors graciously put on the market, not from what the space of possible devices.
I think you are right, but I think what I said is also true.
People will notice some things. For example, with USB if they are using it for local backup they might notice, but with a lot of devices they will not. When they do notice, they will feel powerless.
Even if we had a wider choice, they are not well placed to pick products. There is no way they will know about details of things such as USB issues (a cable is slow, the device will not tell you if it is) at the time of purchase.
This is true of basically everything. Even trivial home maintenance people will just put up with things being broken most of the time over learning how to fix them.
I wasn't surprised to learn that when Linus Tech Tips released those new usb-c cables, that they all sold out almost instantly. They put their entire reputation on the line to claim (and label) the exact capabilities of their usb cables. Isn't that all we really want?
As someone who really doesn't care about learning the details, and just want one USB-C cable that does it ALL to put in my backpack what should I buy ?
You don’t really want that. A thunderbolt cable is both stiff and expensive. They only really make sense to leave attached to the back of a monitor or dock.
What would work better is a flexible 100w+ usb3 cable. You can’t do thunderbolt on it but it’s a tiny fraction of the cost and does everything you’d actually need on the go.
And to be precise, a nice, high quality thunderbolt cable from a reputable manufacturer like Apple or OWC. Protect the cable as it will have been expensive, but it will work very well.
One thing to realize is that especially for high resolution video cables these cheap testers can't really deliver. The way to test them is a eye diagram (see: https://incompliancemag.com/eye-diagram-part2/ ) and testers with that capsbility cost upwards of 10.000 Eurodollars.
No. What it can affect though is the bandwidth of the cable, meaning e.g. for HDMI cables, they might not support higher resolutions or framerates. If it's on the border you might see random disconnects or screen blanks.
The quality degrading is not something you will see, as it's a digital protocol.
"Audiophile grade" HDMI cables are likely to just be a Shenzhen bargain-bin special with some fancy looking sheathing and connectors. I would trust them less than an Amazon Basics cable.
Indeed. If I want super high quality cables, I get them from Blue Jeans Cables, who tell you exactly what Belsen or Can are cable stock and what connectors, as well as the assembly methodology.
These two statements aren't mutually exclusive. The link is looking at the analog signal through an oscilloscope. The person you replied to is pointing out that after decoding and applying error correction, you can still end up with the same digital signal output. So the eye diagram charts are useful for detecting the quality of the cable, but as long as the quality is past a certain threshold, it does not matter.
Correct. But especially if you're using long cables a cable with more "headroom" in the eye diagram will perform more reliable than one that is just at the edge of breakup.
For home use that doesn't matter usually, but I for example run events where I need the cable to work also after 10 people stepped on it and then this can become a significant thing.
No. What I am saying is that it is hard to test the quality of a 8K 240Hz 4444 video cable without having a device that can send and receive this or even higher.
If you send bits across a line fast enough you're grtting into the territory of RF electronics, with wrong connector or conductor geometry you will get echos on the line and all kind of signal loss. A good digital protocol should keep this at bay with error correction and similar mechanisms, but if you want to know what the good cable is on a better than binary scale of works/does not, you need to look at these things.
Well the thing is better doesn't mean better quality here. Better means you can use a longer cable or abuse the cable for longer till it dies.
This is a big part of what makes any pro gear expensive: reliability. If you just connect your home hifi to your speakers in an acoustically untreated space, you could also just use a bunch of steel wire coathangers and get an indistinguishable result. Even a el-cheapo store brand music shop cable will do the trick for years if you don't habitually change your setup four times a week (most people don't).
But if you need reliability and predictability in a studio or live context giving a damn about cable quality is mandatory since a broken cable in the wrong place can ruin your day and reputation. But it is an absolute myth that they will affect the sound in any meaningful way.
Exeption: guitar cables. The capacitance of guitar cables can shift the resonance frequency of the pickup up or down leading to audibly different results. But that id no magic either, you could just take a low capacitance cable and add in arbitrary capacitor for 10 cents as needed.
I wanted to have a model which tells me the modes which are supported and which is actually selected for a reasonable price and which I can order at a reasonable trader. this model seems to do the trick
The thing that has been bothering me for a while is that the USB spec allows for software detection of capabilities. You can read the emarker data and see the supported protocols, speeds, voltages, etc.
But there is not standard for usb controllers to present this data to the OS. So it’s stuck in the low level firmware and never passed up. In theory we could have a popup box that tells you that both your computer and other device support higher speeds/more power, but your cable is limiting it.
Apple seems best able to do this since they control the hardware and OS, yet they aren’t doing it either. Users are just left to be confused about why things are slow.
> In theory we could have a popup box that tells you that both your computer and other device support higher speeds/more power, but your cable is limiting it.
I'm pretty sure my old Dell XPS laptop with Windows 10 had pop-ups just like this.
"This device can run faster" or something.
I wonder if it's possible for a regular machine with two high speed ports to do a cable test by itself. Maybe it can't test all the attributes but could it at least verify speed claims in software?
There would be too many factors involved for a proper test. Many laptop USB controllers would probably not even have the capacity to run two ports at full speed simultaneously.
AFAIK that's just when plugging in a USB 3 device into a USB 2 port or using a USB 2 cable.
Even Apple now has one of those, when you plug something into the USB 2 port on the MacBook Neo.
There’s still nothing when you plug a usb3 device in using a usb2 cable.
> But there is not standard for usb controllers to present this data to the OS. So it’s stuck in the low level firmware and never passed up. In theory we could have a popup box that tells you that both your computer and other device support higher speeds/more power, but your cable is limiting it.
There is. I used to use a KVM with USB 2 ports connected to my PC's USB 3 port, to which I connected a monitor with integrated USB 3 hub to drive my keyboard and mouse. Windows would show a popup every time telling me that I should use a faster cable.
There are also popups telling me that my laptop is connected to a "slow" usb-c charger.
On iPhone, when connecting an external MIDI device via USB, the phone told me that the device was drawing too much power and would be disabled.
I don’t know if they check that via USB protocol, or if they are measuring the actual power draw on the USB port.
In order to use the device, I had to connect it via an externally powered USB hub.
I suspect most users do not even realise things are slow.
Oh, they very much do. But like with everything in technology, they can do fuck all about it, so they resign and maybe complain to you occasionally if you're the designated (in)voluntary tech support person for your family and friends.
Regular people hate technology, both for how magical and how badly broken it is, but they've long learned they're powerless to change it - nobody listens to their complaints, and the whole market is supply-driven, i.e. you get to choose from what vendors graciously put on the market, not from what the space of possible devices.
I think you are right, but I think what I said is also true.
People will notice some things. For example, with USB if they are using it for local backup they might notice, but with a lot of devices they will not. When they do notice, they will feel powerless.
Even if we had a wider choice, they are not well placed to pick products. There is no way they will know about details of things such as USB issues (a cable is slow, the device will not tell you if it is) at the time of purchase.
They also tend to hate technology, because us nerds are often unbearable.
They hate having to go through people that get them upset, in order to use their kit.
Not just tech (although it’s more prevalent). People who are “handy” can also be that way (but, for some reason, techies tend to be more abrasive).
I’ve learned the utility of being patient, and not showing the exasperation that is often boiling inside of me.
This is true of basically everything. Even trivial home maintenance people will just put up with things being broken most of the time over learning how to fix them.
I wasn't surprised to learn that when Linus Tech Tips released those new usb-c cables, that they all sold out almost instantly. They put their entire reputation on the line to claim (and label) the exact capabilities of their usb cables. Isn't that all we really want?
> Linus Tech Tips
> their entire reputation
So... nothing?
LTT are fine. I would strongly consider their products if they had any warehousing in Europe to make shipping here cheaper.
I want one that sends a pseudorandom data stream and tells me the bit error rate.
This isn't a Beagle. When I first read the headline, I was hoping that it would be more than a smart continuity tester.
It seems to be a more comprehensive "Make sure the lines go where they are supposed to" tester. Looks pretty good.
But the devices that test things like transmission speed, are a lot more expensive.
I think that many of the issues that this device tests, can be mitigated by simply buying cables from reputable sources.
As someone who really doesn't care about learning the details, and just want one USB-C cable that does it ALL to put in my backpack what should I buy ?
You don’t really want that. A thunderbolt cable is both stiff and expensive. They only really make sense to leave attached to the back of a monitor or dock.
What would work better is a flexible 100w+ usb3 cable. You can’t do thunderbolt on it but it’s a tiny fraction of the cost and does everything you’d actually need on the go.
If you actually do want it, this is the do everything cable https://www.apple.com/au/xc/product/MW5H3ZA/A
A thunderbolt cable
And to be precise, a nice, high quality thunderbolt cable from a reputable manufacturer like Apple or OWC. Protect the cable as it will have been expensive, but it will work very well.
This is the solution, but it is 1) expensive and 2) Thunderbolt cables are quite short compared to regular USB-C.
Apple sells a 3m one, It’s just $250AUD.
I imagine at that length and speed, signal integrity becomes difficult.
Would it work with USB-C screens and projectors ?
One thing to realize is that especially for high resolution video cables these cheap testers can't really deliver. The way to test them is a eye diagram (see: https://incompliancemag.com/eye-diagram-part2/ ) and testers with that capsbility cost upwards of 10.000 Eurodollars.
So you're saying there is something to audiophile grade HDMI cables?
No. What it can affect though is the bandwidth of the cable, meaning e.g. for HDMI cables, they might not support higher resolutions or framerates. If it's on the border you might see random disconnects or screen blanks.
The quality degrading is not something you will see, as it's a digital protocol.
"Audiophile grade" HDMI cables are likely to just be a Shenzhen bargain-bin special with some fancy looking sheathing and connectors. I would trust them less than an Amazon Basics cable.
Indeed. If I want super high quality cables, I get them from Blue Jeans Cables, who tell you exactly what Belsen or Can are cable stock and what connectors, as well as the assembly methodology.
With digital signals and ECC, the cable need only be "good enough" to get perfect data transfer through the system.
His link made very clear the issues of jitter and flickering.
These two statements aren't mutually exclusive. The link is looking at the analog signal through an oscilloscope. The person you replied to is pointing out that after decoding and applying error correction, you can still end up with the same digital signal output. So the eye diagram charts are useful for detecting the quality of the cable, but as long as the quality is past a certain threshold, it does not matter.
Correct. But especially if you're using long cables a cable with more "headroom" in the eye diagram will perform more reliable than one that is just at the edge of breakup.
For home use that doesn't matter usually, but I for example run events where I need the cable to work also after 10 people stepped on it and then this can become a significant thing.
Not in terms of quality, but reliability.
No. What I am saying is that it is hard to test the quality of a 8K 240Hz 4444 video cable without having a device that can send and receive this or even higher.
If you send bits across a line fast enough you're grtting into the territory of RF electronics, with wrong connector or conductor geometry you will get echos on the line and all kind of signal loss. A good digital protocol should keep this at bay with error correction and similar mechanisms, but if you want to know what the good cable is on a better than binary scale of works/does not, you need to look at these things.
I just need to make a cable with better eye diagrams so I can market it to AV enthusiasts with "golden eyes"!
Our cables are so good that their eye diagrams look like a photograph of a cross-section a gold analog AV connector. That is not a coincidence!
Well the thing is better doesn't mean better quality here. Better means you can use a longer cable or abuse the cable for longer till it dies.
This is a big part of what makes any pro gear expensive: reliability. If you just connect your home hifi to your speakers in an acoustically untreated space, you could also just use a bunch of steel wire coathangers and get an indistinguishable result. Even a el-cheapo store brand music shop cable will do the trick for years if you don't habitually change your setup four times a week (most people don't).
But if you need reliability and predictability in a studio or live context giving a damn about cable quality is mandatory since a broken cable in the wrong place can ruin your day and reputation. But it is an absolute myth that they will affect the sound in any meaningful way.
Exeption: guitar cables. The capacitance of guitar cables can shift the resonance frequency of the pickup up or down leading to audibly different results. But that id no magic either, you could just take a low capacitance cable and add in arbitrary capacitor for 10 cents as needed.
I have seen shielding and gauge make quite a difference for cables carrying analog signals!
I just want one that tells me the maximum voltage and current supported by a USB C cable.
The Treedix will tell you that, as it is a feature of the eMarker chip (no chip means 60W).
Got this recently for USD$3 on sale: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006848187940.html
there are several: one that is moderately priced and which I consider myself to buy is the JOY-IT UM120
Thanks, why do you prefer that particular model?
I wanted to have a model which tells me the modes which are supported and which is actually selected for a reasonable price and which I can order at a reasonable trader. this model seems to do the trick
Hopefully they used connectors with a high mating cycle rating.
I’ve had one for a while as well. I don’t use it often, but frankly I couldn’t sort my cables without it.