I wouldn't want a touchscreen MBP even if it was free, anyone else feel similar?
I don't get the draw - we already optimize for keyboard commands to avoid living our fingers over to a touchpad. Why would I want to start clicking on my screen?
If you're using your computer for tasks (rather than entertainment) and you're not a visual designer, I don't get why Apple are apparently going to be putting them into the new MBP line later this year.
I wouldn't want a touch screen to become the primary input device, but I think it would be useful on occasion. Not entirely unlike how we still have touchpads even though we try to use keyboard commands.
Sometimes, if I’ve been using my iPad for awhile and switch over to my MBP, I might reach out and touch the screen out of habit. I can’t be the only one.
I had the opposite problem when work issued me a ThinkPad - I would accidentally brush my screen with my caveman knuckles once a day and somehow nuke a dozen lines of code.
Macs are definitely not optimized for keyboard commands. If you feel the software you use is keyboard optimized, odds are it's not really Mac software.
It just feels ancient and weird now that I can tap every screen I own, except my Mac. I don't want to replace the Mac's keyboard & mouse with a touchscreen, I would simply like it to support touch.
(This also made me realize the impending obsolescence of the Studio Monitor XDR: no touch support.)
> Based on current internal deliberations, the company could launch its first touch-screen Mac in 2025
It looks like those leaks aren't too far off what I'm saying. Deadlines slipping by 1-2 years isn't way off especially for such a new/different product direction. And the rumor also said "could" which means even internally, it wasn't a strong claim.
Yes and it's an article about a leak 3 years ago. And there were more "leaks" before that. I just can't be bothered to research and link the obvious to argument against an "opinion".
All my Windows laptops have touch screens and I love it. What is the problem with having another input method available? You only use it when it’s appropriate.
As other people mentioned this is obviously not something I would want in my notebook... but I can still appreciate the cool tech!
I can also definitely see this kind of thing being used in things budget outdoor displays, specially if the UI is made to accommodate the lack of accuracy, and the camera is positioned on the side (since these displays are usually vertical).
It's actually quite pleasant user experience for scrolling. Some interactions are better with a pointer, others are better with touch.
You can try it on an iPad with Magic Keyboard attached, it's very good to be able to do precision through the trackpad and then casually move large things on the screen with your fingers.
Honestly I just hate having fingerprints on a screen. And I use pageup/pagedown mostly which to me is better than scrolling.
Trackpad is nice for a device you can lay flat on a table or keep on one hand while sitting on the sofa, not too much when the device has a keyboard permanently attached to it and it cannot fold. I know I have a thinkpad like that and I never use the touchscreen.
Yesterday someone online told me I'm a boomer because (among the many other issues I mentioned) I said that apple computers lack page up/down keys which is annoying.
Two keys rather than one, but makes up for it by not being way off in some oddball part of the keyboard. You can one-hand it pretty easily, since there's an "option" right next to the arrow keys.
As long as there's a way to maintain the current display density, that would be just fine.
However, like on Windows, I suspect macOS would increase the tap target size on lots of the touchable elements. Even if I don't use the touchscreen, I would still have to pay the touch target real estate tax in my applications.
That's a fair ask. My dream would be a simple toggle in something like control center for macOS that can flip between "touch mode" and "desktop mode" with most of the under the hood stuff being the same and just UI changes for the task. No doubt this would create new hurdles for software devs but again I'm dreaming here. Windows 10 actually had this with "tablet mode" in the notification center but I think they already soured people on the touch Windows thing by this point. I think Apple could reasonable do it better if they had the will but they'd much rather you buy and iPad for touch and a mac for desktop and everyone who doesn't want an extra device for certain use cases is left out in the rain.
Love it! I appreciate the ethos of doing more with existing hardware. Adding an actual touchscreen would add real COGs to a macbook, and many potential failure points. Using the existing camera hardware + software seems to produce a "good enough" result for most people for casual use. I'm sure with some time and eng, Apple could make the "hack" shippable. But it doesn't earn product managers the big big bonuses, so it'll never happen.
Oleophobic coating is standard on phones and tablets, which is part of why they don’t pick up fingerprints as easily.
Some brands offer coating you can DIY yourself (eg ProofTech OLEOPEL) but these seem mostly designed for phone screens. I don’t know whether they’d be as effective on laptop screens
Using an external webcam is that not more than $1? cool project though; reminds me of how you could use a Wii remote to create a interactive whiteboard.
I think I could do this for less than 15 cents: four small peices of double sided tape, and the tiny mirror, and two hair pins... but the software? Priceless.
> why would I ever choose to put fingers on that beautful screen ... I don't get it!
I'm not sure, but bare in mind that the iPad is almost as large of a market as the Mac at this point, and the iPhone has long surpassed Mac revenue. Touching your computer is a very popular sentiment among the grimy-handed public.
Still an amazing hack today and I love it. However, I heard Apple are developing a touch screen MacBook this year, and I simply don't get why they're doing that. I don't know what's worse, the ergonomics or the fingerprints.
I have been around touch screen Windows laptops for I don’t know how many years now, and I have never felt even the slightest compulsion to touch the screen.
It might be a generational thing; my kids get touchscreen laptops from their school, and they interact with them almost exclusively by touching the screen. I agree, I'd much rather use a mouse (or even better, a trackball; i wish most laptops still had those)
I wouldn't want a touchscreen MBP even if it was free, anyone else feel similar?
I don't get the draw - we already optimize for keyboard commands to avoid living our fingers over to a touchpad. Why would I want to start clicking on my screen?
If you're using your computer for tasks (rather than entertainment) and you're not a visual designer, I don't get why Apple are apparently going to be putting them into the new MBP line later this year.
I don’t understand touchscreens on laptops that aren’t designed to fold flat. It’s got the feel of finger painting an unconstrained birthday balloon.
I wouldn't want a touch screen to become the primary input device, but I think it would be useful on occasion. Not entirely unlike how we still have touchpads even though we try to use keyboard commands.
Sometimes, if I’ve been using my iPad for awhile and switch over to my MBP, I might reach out and touch the screen out of habit. I can’t be the only one.
I had the opposite problem when work issued me a ThinkPad - I would accidentally brush my screen with my caveman knuckles once a day and somehow nuke a dozen lines of code.
Macs are definitely not optimized for keyboard commands. If you feel the software you use is keyboard optimized, odds are it's not really Mac software.
Huh? Of all the wonky shit about my Mac, the flawless keyboard navigation is really none of that
“Flawless” is absolutely the opposite of how I’d describe the third class keyboard navigation in MacOS.
It’s actually more intuitive to use a magic keyboard on the iPad than on the desktop OS.
What do you find missing from macOS keyboard navigation?
I've been using macs since the 90s so I'm quite used to it, so I'd love to know what I've been missing out on.
It just feels ancient and weird now that I can tap every screen I own, except my Mac. I don't want to replace the Mac's keyboard & mouse with a touchscreen, I would simply like it to support touch.
(This also made me realize the impending obsolescence of the Studio Monitor XDR: no touch support.)
> I don't get why Apple are apparently going to be putting them into the new MBP line later this year.
Apple has apparently being going to put a touchscreen in a laptop every year since the iPad came out, and it's never materialized.
Previously, those were rumors from enthusiasts who wanted to see it. Now it's an internal leak so there's a lot more credibility to those rumors.
No, there were internal "leaks" in the past as well.
https://archive.ph/xOgtp
> Based on current internal deliberations, the company could launch its first touch-screen Mac in 2025
It looks like those leaks aren't too far off what I'm saying. Deadlines slipping by 1-2 years isn't way off especially for such a new/different product direction. And the rumor also said "could" which means even internally, it wasn't a strong claim.
> January 11, 2023
> Based on current internal deliberations, the company could launch its first touch-screen Mac in 2025
Even if it didn't come to pass, just a few years ago is a more relevant leak than the every-year-since-the-iPad-released "rumors."
Yes and it's an article about a leak 3 years ago. And there were more "leaks" before that. I just can't be bothered to research and link the obvious to argument against an "opinion".
I very much would want a touchscreen for my use cases.
as long as it works well, would rather have it than not (but don't want to pay extra, so yeah... leave it out)
The benefit of a touchscreen MBP is that Apple will be forced to make their screens more protective.
The ergonomic aspects are horrible. I believe there's actual research on this from the 70s/80s/90s.
All my Windows laptops have touch screens and I love it. What is the problem with having another input method available? You only use it when it’s appropriate.
As other people mentioned this is obviously not something I would want in my notebook... but I can still appreciate the cool tech!
I can also definitely see this kind of thing being used in things budget outdoor displays, specially if the UI is made to accommodate the lack of accuracy, and the camera is positioned on the side (since these displays are usually vertical).
Touch screens are not pleasant for laptops. I prefer not to have them.
It's actually quite pleasant user experience for scrolling. Some interactions are better with a pointer, others are better with touch.
You can try it on an iPad with Magic Keyboard attached, it's very good to be able to do precision through the trackpad and then casually move large things on the screen with your fingers.
Honestly I just hate having fingerprints on a screen. And I use pageup/pagedown mostly which to me is better than scrolling.
Trackpad is nice for a device you can lay flat on a table or keep on one hand while sitting on the sofa, not too much when the device has a keyboard permanently attached to it and it cannot fold. I know I have a thinkpad like that and I never use the touchscreen.
Yesterday someone online told me I'm a boomer because (among the many other issues I mentioned) I said that apple computers lack page up/down keys which is annoying.
Option-up/option-down?
Two keys rather than one, but makes up for it by not being way off in some oddball part of the keyboard. You can one-hand it pretty easily, since there's an "option" right next to the arrow keys.
Agree for iPad. But for a laptop trackpads ftw!
You don't have to use it.
As long as there's a way to maintain the current display density, that would be just fine.
However, like on Windows, I suspect macOS would increase the tap target size on lots of the touchable elements. Even if I don't use the touchscreen, I would still have to pay the touch target real estate tax in my applications.
That's a fair ask. My dream would be a simple toggle in something like control center for macOS that can flip between "touch mode" and "desktop mode" with most of the under the hood stuff being the same and just UI changes for the task. No doubt this would create new hurdles for software devs but again I'm dreaming here. Windows 10 actually had this with "tablet mode" in the notification center but I think they already soured people on the touch Windows thing by this point. I think Apple could reasonable do it better if they had the will but they'd much rather you buy and iPad for touch and a mac for desktop and everyone who doesn't want an extra device for certain use cases is left out in the rain.
Note on Windows you can disable the touch device and it goes back to the old density. Don't know if Macs support it.
you will accidentally touch the screen more often that you think.
What a super neat application of computer vision. Cool writeup. Thanks for sharing the code and making it open source too!
I was laughing so much. Thank you. Unexpected tech!
This is amazing. They should start to install upward looking cameras to implement this officially.
Love it! I appreciate the ethos of doing more with existing hardware. Adding an actual touchscreen would add real COGs to a macbook, and many potential failure points. Using the existing camera hardware + software seems to produce a "good enough" result for most people for casual use. I'm sure with some time and eng, Apple could make the "hack" shippable. But it doesn't earn product managers the big big bonuses, so it'll never happen.
The reason we buy macbooks is because they aren't touchscreens.
It feels real because of the dirty touchscreen.
Is there a coating you can apply to the glass to help with smudge marks?
Oleophobic coating is standard on phones and tablets, which is part of why they don’t pick up fingerprints as easily.
Some brands offer coating you can DIY yourself (eg ProofTech OLEOPEL) but these seem mostly designed for phone screens. I don’t know whether they’d be as effective on laptop screens
And this is why modern screens (and eyeglasses) should be cleaned with a damp microfiber cloth and no aggressive cleaners. These coatings are fragile.
I do carefully clean the nosepads with soapy water, however.
Using an external webcam is that not more than $1? cool project though; reminds me of how you could use a Wii remote to create a interactive whiteboard.
Internal with a small mirror
I wonder how well this would work with my bright blue fingernails that are about .5" longer than my finger.
I then wonder how much recalibration I would have to do when one of them broke and I was poking directly at the screen.
You could still use the keyboard and track pad
Checking this profile of a random hacker in 2018, of course they are now working on AI.
I was working on AI in 2018 too :)
At that time, I was quite interested in adversarial examples and ML security.
I think I could do this for less than 15 cents: four small peices of double sided tape, and the tiny mirror, and two hair pins... but the software? Priceless.
Brilliant!
Neeeeveeeer!!! please let macbooks be as they are .. why would I ever choose to put fingers on that beautful screen ... I don't get it!
> why would I ever choose to put fingers on that beautful screen ... I don't get it!
I'm not sure, but bare in mind that the iPad is almost as large of a market as the Mac at this point, and the iPhone has long surpassed Mac revenue. Touching your computer is a very popular sentiment among the grimy-handed public.
Still an amazing hack today and I love it. However, I heard Apple are developing a touch screen MacBook this year, and I simply don't get why they're doing that. I don't know what's worse, the ergonomics or the fingerprints.
i used to have a bad touch screen laptop like 7 years ago and back then it made the mobile development more pleasant (both native and web based)
So you mean they're developing the iPad, an insanely popular device, and you're not sure why they would make such a device?
I have been around touch screen Windows laptops for I don’t know how many years now, and I have never felt even the slightest compulsion to touch the screen.
It might be a generational thing; my kids get touchscreen laptops from their school, and they interact with them almost exclusively by touching the screen. I agree, I'd much rather use a mouse (or even better, a trackball; i wish most laptops still had those)