I have an acquaintance with children that grew up thinking they were European and having options for education and later work in Europe, or the UK if they wanted. Their opportunities and perspective are much smaller now. It was a huge change in perspective for them.
"The number of UK students moving abroad for the whole of a degree did not change in the same way – remaining relatively stable over the past decade. This is perhaps unsurprising given that very few UK students study abroad for the entirety of a degree anyway (particularly in Europe), and those that do so are unlikely to have been severely disadvantaged by the financial changes wrought by Brexit: although they now have to pay ‘international’ fees in Europe, these are typically less than the ‘home’ fees they would have paid in the UK." [1]
There is also the issue of speaking a foreign language well enough to follow an university course as they are usually taught in the local language. Same goes for work.
Same works the other way. English is a de facto lingua franca. Migrating between different countries within Europe comes with challenges because many countries still stubbornly implicitly require immigrants to know the native language. With the UK in the EU it was the path of least resistance when migration was considered temporary.
Calling people's preference for their own language "stubborn" is a puzzlingly entitled take. Do you expect every country in Europe to change their language to English? If not, how do you propose immigrants be fully functional in a country without speaking the local language?
Well, let's take the Netherlands or Scandinavian countries as example. Their languages are alive and well, yet temporary work immigrants can live fully functional lives with speaking only English. Europe will be held back economically as long as there are communication obstacles.
Anecdotally, English is the only foreign language I know well enough to communicate fluently. Suppose I received a job offer from Germany and decided to migrate. Should I start learning German along with learning at a new job and other obligations, keeping in mind I will probably switch jobs again in a few years? What's next - French or Italian?
Language should serve the people, not the other way around.
I'm glad you bring that example, because I was in fact an immigrant in the Netherlands for several years. Do people speak English? Many do. Will they speak English by default? No. They are obviously more comfortable in Dutch than they are in English, and anything not directly addressed to me was said in Dutch, at work and with local friends. Many people do, in fact, not speak enough English to communicate effectively. Official documents are in Dutch. That made not knowing Dutch very difficult.
I didn't think it was them being stubborn, just me being ignorant, because I don't think I am the center of the universe. Yes, am immigrant to Germany should absolutely learn German. Countries and their people are not the backdrop for someone's main character complex.
Most of the time for bureaucratic legalese you would need a local specialist either way, even if the documents were written in English because you need to know local laws (or where to look them up) also. Going back to the Netherlands example, I think that's a totally reasonable behavior on their part, yet never has been an issue to me not knowing Dutch, nor has been an issue to me not knowing Danish in Denmark. But for regular daily activities - Uber, restaurant, healthcare - communication is fluent and that's what matters for those living there temporary.
Entirely agree with you but... Europe not having a common language is one of the things that holds it back from being a stronger competitor against the US and CN. It's just one of the myriad of other things holding EU back.
It is useless to think that we always "have to compete" head to head. We don't have to be bigger than the bull. Frankly the argument is mostly a way to justify EU federalisation and the death of individual countries and cultures for the sake of "uniformisation" like if that was something unavoidable.
I agree that competition between peoples is counterproductive. But this is the world we live in. I also think that in large part international competition is pushed by the US as part of their culture and because they are the leading world power. In this world order, Europeans should be able to sit at the table as equals with other major powers.
Also, why does federalization have to mean the death of cultures? Can't we come up with ideas how to have both?
It is changing slowly, but the dynamics is so complex that it might as well reverse its course. In the mean time they are still dominating and will probably continue to do so over the coming decades (so for a generation or two more).
If you were an EU citizen settled in the UK before Brexit then Brexit hasn't changed anything at all.
> From the 2021/22 academic year, EU nationals became subject to the same rules as non-EU citizens. Those include needing to apply for a study visa and pay higher international student tuition fees, without entitlement to government-subsidised loans.
This is key because with Brexit, and the UK leaving Erasmus as well, EU students are indeed charged much higher tuition fees than UK students. Tuition fees are alreay high in England for British students, but for internationa students it can be £30k+ a year...
I have an acquaintance with children that grew up thinking they were European and having options for education and later work in Europe, or the UK if they wanted. Their opportunities and perspective are much smaller now. It was a huge change in perspective for them.
I think this is more psychological than factual.
"The number of UK students moving abroad for the whole of a degree did not change in the same way – remaining relatively stable over the past decade. This is perhaps unsurprising given that very few UK students study abroad for the entirety of a degree anyway (particularly in Europe), and those that do so are unlikely to have been severely disadvantaged by the financial changes wrought by Brexit: although they now have to pay ‘international’ fees in Europe, these are typically less than the ‘home’ fees they would have paid in the UK." [1]
There is also the issue of speaking a foreign language well enough to follow an university course as they are usually taught in the local language. Same goes for work.
[1] https://ukandeu.ac.uk/student-mobility-post-brexit/
Same works the other way. English is a de facto lingua franca. Migrating between different countries within Europe comes with challenges because many countries still stubbornly implicitly require immigrants to know the native language. With the UK in the EU it was the path of least resistance when migration was considered temporary.
Calling people's preference for their own language "stubborn" is a puzzlingly entitled take. Do you expect every country in Europe to change their language to English? If not, how do you propose immigrants be fully functional in a country without speaking the local language?
Well, let's take the Netherlands or Scandinavian countries as example. Their languages are alive and well, yet temporary work immigrants can live fully functional lives with speaking only English. Europe will be held back economically as long as there are communication obstacles.
Anecdotally, English is the only foreign language I know well enough to communicate fluently. Suppose I received a job offer from Germany and decided to migrate. Should I start learning German along with learning at a new job and other obligations, keeping in mind I will probably switch jobs again in a few years? What's next - French or Italian?
Language should serve the people, not the other way around.
I'm glad you bring that example, because I was in fact an immigrant in the Netherlands for several years. Do people speak English? Many do. Will they speak English by default? No. They are obviously more comfortable in Dutch than they are in English, and anything not directly addressed to me was said in Dutch, at work and with local friends. Many people do, in fact, not speak enough English to communicate effectively. Official documents are in Dutch. That made not knowing Dutch very difficult.
I didn't think it was them being stubborn, just me being ignorant, because I don't think I am the center of the universe. Yes, am immigrant to Germany should absolutely learn German. Countries and their people are not the backdrop for someone's main character complex.
Most of the time for bureaucratic legalese you would need a local specialist either way, even if the documents were written in English because you need to know local laws (or where to look them up) also. Going back to the Netherlands example, I think that's a totally reasonable behavior on their part, yet never has been an issue to me not knowing Dutch, nor has been an issue to me not knowing Danish in Denmark. But for regular daily activities - Uber, restaurant, healthcare - communication is fluent and that's what matters for those living there temporary.
Entirely agree with you but... Europe not having a common language is one of the things that holds it back from being a stronger competitor against the US and CN. It's just one of the myriad of other things holding EU back.
Holding the EU back from the role models of two fascistic societies is an excellent thing.
Fantastic! I propose we should have a common language, you conclude it must be because of fascism. Brilliant take.
I was referring to the myriad of things.
It is useless to think that we always "have to compete" head to head. We don't have to be bigger than the bull. Frankly the argument is mostly a way to justify EU federalisation and the death of individual countries and cultures for the sake of "uniformisation" like if that was something unavoidable.
I agree that competition between peoples is counterproductive. But this is the world we live in. I also think that in large part international competition is pushed by the US as part of their culture and because they are the leading world power. In this world order, Europeans should be able to sit at the table as equals with other major powers.
Also, why does federalization have to mean the death of cultures? Can't we come up with ideas how to have both?
> because they are the leading world power
Since this has now started to slowly change, it's probably not a very good idea to pay too much attention to what they're culturally pushing anymore.
It is changing slowly, but the dynamics is so complex that it might as well reverse its course. In the mean time they are still dominating and will probably continue to do so over the coming decades (so for a generation or two more).
If you were an EU citizen settled in the UK before Brexit then Brexit hasn't changed anything at all.
> From the 2021/22 academic year, EU nationals became subject to the same rules as non-EU citizens. Those include needing to apply for a study visa and pay higher international student tuition fees, without entitlement to government-subsidised loans.
This is key because with Brexit, and the UK leaving Erasmus as well, EU students are indeed charged much higher tuition fees than UK students. Tuition fees are alreay high in England for British students, but for internationa students it can be £30k+ a year...