I think a lot of it has to do with mental status, which can be concluded with one sentence -- "Are you happy with your life, and if not do you have a clear path to reach that?".
People who say no probably has a lot of trouble to get fit, get enough sleep -- sometimes NOT because they do not have the resources, but because they are not happy. They hate life, so why makes it better? I have observed this in myself so I wonder whether it is universally true.
I have observed that whenever I have a clear target in my life (e.g. I need to pursue this girl I like, or, I need to figure out Linux 1.0 VFS and I have a clear path before me), I immediately take care to do exercises, eat more healthy food, and try to get good sleep -- but if I cannot find an objective, or I have lost interests and are in the middle of finding a new one, I find myself a lot more obnoxious, and sometimes I "proactively" destroy my health because I don't care about it. Unfortunately I rarely find a clear path before me so the later status is more or less permanent while the former one is rare, maybe once per year -- but when I reach the first status it usually grabbed me for 2-3 months.
Mental stability is probably one of the reasons different people have vastly different productivity or achievements. It is mental stability that brings focus, not the other way around.
The older I get the more sensitive to a single poor night's sleep I become.
The most frustrating effect is that even a few drinks in the evening (maybe over 2-3 units). Unsettles my sleep that if I'm in the process of learning something feels like it sets me back several days.
That's not even counting the slowed processing I feel, and lower productivity the next day.
I genuinely have to revisit old information.
A genuine hangover from a heavy night can put me out of action for half a week!
When I was younger I'm not sure I had many good nights sleep let alone noticed a bad one!
I've heard that small amounts of alcohol can actually improve learning interestingly by preventing interference from events later in the day.
>The older I get the more sensitive to a single poor night's sleep I become.
Back when I was 20 I had a drinking problem. One time I drank so much that I passed out sitting on a table. Woke up with friends having stripped my clothes and washed them.
I woke up at 9AM, feeling 100% sober, just anxious about my 20 missed calls from my mom.
I got a bit drunk at about 33 and next day I thought I was dying.
That's how I learnt what hangovers were.
Again, at around 25, I helped my brother in-law move bee hives all night, including some 8 hours of driving.
Went straight to work and in the evening I had dinner with my wife at a restaurant.
Now I crash in bed at 9PM and if I'm lucky, I also sleep (but quite often I wake up at 2AM).
Getting old(er) sucks, and I'm only 42 and I miss so much how nice being in my 20 something body felt all the time.
I’m 49 and have all but given up on drinking. It does nothing for me except make me tired and then, ironically, mess up my sleep. On fridays I grill cheeseburgers for the family and usually have one Half-Life tall boy from Manhattan Brewery because it’s my favorite of all time but that’s about it. Otherwise, I don’t drink at all. Being tired and not sleeping well is handled perfectly adequately by my job hah.
I'm pretty much the same as you. I really like beer and wine and cocktails, but the bad sleep and feeling shitty the next day after even one drink isn't worth it. Thirty years ago hangovers were rare and could usually be ended with a cup of coffee, tylenol, and lots of water.
The next thing I have to back off on is sugar. It doesn't seem to mess up my sleep like booze, but I definitely notice it the day after I have that big bowl of ice cream or giant slice of cake. A big enough sugar binge feels pretty close to a hangover for me now.
> The older I get the more sensitive to a single poor night's sleep I become.
Can relate.
> The most frustrating effect is that even a few drinks in the evening (maybe over 2-3 units). Unsettles my sleep that if I'm in the process of learning something feels like it sets me back several days.
I'm not noticing it unsettles my learning but can relate to a few drinks already upsetting my sleep. I wouldn't be surprised if my learning would be impaired by at least a bit.
> When I was younger I'm not sure I had many good nights sleep let alone noticed a bad one!
Being young is a blessing that way.
I'm +35 years old by the way.
> I've heard that small amounts of alcohol can actually improve learning interestingly by preventing interference from events later in the day.
Do you have a source? Would be curious to look some of it up.
Here is some research around the alcohol effect. What I found most surprising is the mean consumption was over 80g, since 8g of ethanol is a unit that's an astonishing mean of 10units.
I was of the impression that the effect was around 1 unit.
While there's no consistent standard, most countries appear to be using something in the 10-14g range for what they call a "standard drink"/"unit" of alcohol. (UK is 8g, but the rest of the EU typically uses 10g or 12g, US uses 14g).
I actually hadn't realized until I went looking that the "standard drink" isn't much of an international standard unit at all. Will have to keep that in mind when reading papers/recommendations from different health authorities in the future.
-----
Anyway, it's pretty interesting. I'm not sure I'm going to believe the effect just on one noisy study, but even if the reality is something lesser - like it just not harming memory formation of things you'd learned earlier in the day, the implications are still a bit interesting.
It certainly adds a bit to some of the historical social biases against "day drinking", and also does a bit to explain how plenty of high-performing young people seem to use alcohol pretty heavily after they're done learning (college students partying, etc) with limited direct impacts on their educational performance.
Those responses are very much valid responses to a topic that some share as a valid conversational topic on a thread about getting good sleep and learning, myself included.
Even better, the topic is visited on part 6.2[1] of the article you're replying to.
Mentioning drinking three times (effects of drinks in the evening, hangover, effects on learning) in a single response might give an impression you like to drink.
I mean, they sell alcohol in shops for money, and not force it on you in some government-mandated way. Which kinda tells that people in general like to drink.
The topic is drinking so they mentioned drinking, and usually people do what they like to do, and in other news water is wet - but do we judge water for being wet? So let's stop virtue signaling because it's definitely not a show of virtue. I see where religious fundamentalism is taking the world and damn if I like it.
I’m not religious at all, and it’s not religious fundamentalism to point out that alcohol disrupts sleep, and that this likely is the primary factor affecting the poster’s sleep.
Also not religious fundamentalism to point out that alcohol is a known carcinogen (: that’s just science. It’s a Group 1 carcinogen, the same group as tobacco and asbestos.
But sunlight is essential for the cutaneous conversion of 7-dehydrocholesterol to vitamin D3, whereas ethanol serves no essential purpose, irrespective of whether one enjoys it or not.
Personally I don’t consume ethanol; but I don’t care if others do or not so long as they stay off the roads and are not piloting my flight.
I will say that when I did consume ethanol even in small quantities, my sleep was much worse than it is at baseline; and that effect only worsened as I got older.
The most important thing about sleep I learned is to fall asleep at the same moment of every day. Make it 22:00 or 23:00 or 00:00. Whatever is comfortable for you. But you have to stick to the chosen hour as hard as you can. Every day from now on it has to be that hour. After you get used to that you will notice a much better effect of the sleep.
A few years ago, I started having trouble sleeping through the night. I began making incremental changes in lifestyle, one at a time in order to test each variable. This experiment continued for several months without much success. (I had already quit drinking, so that was not a factor). Finally I found two lifestyle changes that seem to help: (1) I reduced stress in my life by working from home most days, and (2) I eliminated refined sugar and excess sodium from my diet. Since then, I am usually able to get about seven or eight hours of sleep most nights.
Stress is an obvious factor that disrupts sleep, and the article has a lot to say about stress. The article also briefly mentions diet and glucose metabolism: "Sleep deprivation research tells us that adequate sleep is particularly important for healthy glucose metabolism." For me, the causality also runs the other way: avoiding excessive sugar and sodium is essential to get adequate sleep.
How can I explain to my 6 months old girl that we all need to sleep :D
This is a bug in the universe! We need to sleep so that the levels of dopamine, and hormones of hunger and not hunger are at good levels, so that we can be healthy and strong, so that the immune system is stable and strong... And we need to get good sleep so that we can protect our children and be sane....
BUT the nature decided that the kids will wake up 3-4 times per night, and you need to wake up and take care of them.
You sleep in best case, on pauses, not more than 4-6 hours, you feel miserable, and at the same time you are THE HAPPIEST PERSON IN THIS WORLD! :)
In my area there is a saying like "it takes a village to raise a child".
i believe that a good social network is not only important for the kid, but for the parents too.
it helps so much to have a partner, grandparents, aunts/uncles, who can look over the kid just for a hour or 2, so you can get your rest. And its usually fun for the kids too.
Now that i have 2 kids, a loving wife and 2 families around me, i have the highest respect for all the single moms/dads out there.
As immigrants with no local network, having kids is basically putting yourself under house arrest for a decade or so. You can post bail (pay a babysitter) for occasional reprieve. I mean sure you can go do outings with kids, but for most of them, do you really want to? I know mine aren't particularly enthralled by trips to the Rijksmuseum.
I don't think this is how humans usually raised kids...
We're in the same boat. Feels like mostly our society doesn't value having children - it's by and large not a very well supported activity. Even more so if you don't have immediate family to help support you.
If you go to the third world kids are all running in the streets while both parents work and grandparents not doing fuck all to watch them either. The most practical answer is to relax negligence laws back to a sane level where as long as you're not torturing them and they are fed, "society" stays the fuck out of the punishment process.
This is why people critique the nuclear family—the degenerate village around the children that just consists of the parents, maybe grandparents at holidays. It’s a recipe for overworked adults.
I've got a Mexican American friend that lives multi-generationally and loves it. He's a few years out of high school with a good job in management and a nice car, money in the bank. His older brother gets help parenting from Tio and the grandparents, and generally everyone gets along well. He's almost kept up with me in savings for property and I'm married (our pay is pretty similar, but I have dual income). American culture optimizes for wastefulness and puts too much of an emphasis on independence, especially when arrangements like this exist that actually can lead to greater individual freedom in the long run.
Part of this is also our culture that somehow decided kids need their own bed, and it's easy to get baby formula.
So the kids are not sleeping in our beds, where they feel 100% secure, getting to the breast whenever they want (and they quickly will want it at a lesser frequency). The woman will feel this, but hardly has to wake up, me... I slept right through all that.
In our time everybody advised us: Give the bady a load of milk at 23:00 just before you go to bed! We never did, just stuck to about did 20:00, or just when baby cried, both babies took about 2 months to sleep for about 12 hours straight.
Anyway, not saying everybody is that lucky, just saying sometimes it's good to questions things that are given in one's culture. Worst advice imho is "let the baby cry" which was common on our days. How nice to let a baby cry alone in a room, not understanding anything about what happens...
FWIW, and understanding that individual babies do differ, most babies can sleep through the night (10-12 hours) by 3-4 months old. Check out the books "Twelve Hours' Sleep by Twelve Weeks Old" or "Precious Little Sleep" for guidance.
In my case where n=2, naps during the day are/were not all that consistent but at night (unless they are very sick or something) the kids sleep.
Last month there was a heartbreaking news about a < 6 month old baby being snatched away by a leopard while the baby was sleeping next to the parent and the parent realized her baby was missing only much later.
I imagine the predator situation would have been much worse during the early human evolution years. I don't know if that was a beneficial trait or not in that environment.
Is it? Couldn't it be a bug in our society/economy instead? What if nature wanted us to take some naps through the day and not just one period of sleep in the night? Waking up multiple times at night wouldn't hurt too much then.
> There is only one formula for healthy and refreshing sleep: Go to sleep only when you are very tired. Not earlier. Not later. Wake up naturally without an alarm clock.
This is very easy to say when you're not suffering from insomnia and other sleep disorders.
The classic symptoms were unknown to me until this point when I researched them.
I had previously blamed psych medications for the symptoms, and while they may have exacerbated them, I guess diabetes was the real root cause.
One of the symptoms is frequent urination. And so, every night I wake up every 2 hours or so and crawl into the bathroom. It’s legitimately a huge curse.
I don’t get enough deep R.E.M. and I remain exhausted just from the physical effort of get-up-and-go.
It’s very frustrating and sad to think that even after I’ve got my blood glucose under control, I still have these lingering symptoms that impact my QoL.
IMO Type 2 diabetes is manageable. My father struggled with it for decades and his last few years were not great. Having those same genes, I've spent a lot of time reading and following the data. My take is that T2 is quite manageable. Even reversible, if you focus on it. "Reversible" doesn't mean a lifelong cure, but you can push out your health days by a decade.
There are all kinds of solutions that work. High Protein, Mediterranean, Atkins, or even High Carb (the "good" kind). The breakdown usually happens in the "cocktail" of foods. Our bodies are not hybrid engines; we can not switch fuels mid-stream and expect optimal health. You have to pick a poison, let's say, a protein-based diet—and stick to it. Then exercise and intermittent fasting (IF) are force multipliers. I did strict IF for a year, but I have fallen off the wagon lately, only manage 3-4 days of IF a week. The difference in how I feel is stark.
What worked for me was something called "Lalit Kapoor" diet — basically a WFPB/vegan approach with heavy green juicing and fasting. My failure was primarily due to social friction. My family eats very differently. Making a special effort for every single meal eventually made me start taking the easy way. I still follow it but I wish I could be 100% rather than 80% and which is where all diets fail.
As a Spaniard I am trying to honor my ancestors and nap when I can, but man, it feels almost impossible most of the days. It could be that I am having too much anxiety/stress, too much coffee in the mornings, lack of practice, or maybe all of them. Any experiences related to learning to nap or what worked for you over here?
Fellow Spaniard here. Our ancestors were definitely onto something! I think the most important thing when it comes to napping is to show up: find a comfortable spot, use an eye mask, and set a timer for whatever time you have (I typically do something between 10 to 30 minutes). Just close your eyes and don’t open them until the alarm goes off.
I don’t always nap, but I make sure to do so if I haven’t had enough sleep or when I’m stressed or overworked. The more work I have, the more naps I take. Three back to back meetings? 15 minutes nap for your brain to organize and process the information dump. You get the gist. Doesn’t have to be after lunch, just a few minutes when you need/have them.
I used to do the Dali nap: find a comfortable spot, hold a spoon in your hand, and close your eyes. Once you fall asleep the spoon will fall from your hand and wake you up. That makes sure you go into hypnagogic state, great for problem solving as the brain is in a creativity sweet spot.
The technique I use now is not strictly a nap but a relaxation technique called NSDR: Non-Sleep Deep Rest. It’s kind of a guided meditation that deeply relaxes your body and nervous system. Just 10 minutes can feel as restorative as hours of sleep. You can check Andrew Huberman's scripts or Youtube videos for a more body-hacking, science-backed vive, or channels like are Ally Boothroyd's [0] for a more spiritual take on the concept, also known as Yoga Nidra.
I hope that helps. And best of luck with your napping, honor the ancestors!
Thank you so much for your detailed answer! I definitely try to show up, but I am an anxious person and sometimes trying to nap makes me even more anxious. However, it is true that even when I don't manage to sleep it helps relaxing me and giving me some extra energy.
I've also read about NSDR and wanted to try it, so having some sources is really helpful. Do you always practice it with some guided meditation or can you do it on your own? I kind of not like guided meditation. (No reason, it's just that kind of feel wrong. Probably I should just open my mind and try it more.) Thank you so much!
Practice makes perfect! Keep on showing up and it will most likely get easier :)
I currently do not do guided NSDR that much, but it helped a lot at the time learning how to calm my thoughts and become deeply relaxed, especially the Ally guided sessions (as everything else, takes practice) so I would recommend to try the guided ones even if it feels awkward, until you learn how to stop your mind from wandering. I find it helps both with quick reset/recharge naps and falling back asleep if I wake up in the middle of the night (happens often for me).
Set a timer for 20 minutes, lie down (or at least close your eyes) and force yourself to stay motionless until the timer rings. Try to let your thoughts float freely... Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but you should try at least a few times. (And yes, maybe limit yourself to just one coffee in the morning.)
I try, but apart from the coffee (I usually take two, probably the second one interferes with my nap), I think it's the lack of consistency/practice what's making my napping difficult.
I think nearly everyone should be screened for sleep apnea. The at-home test you wear on your finger is so cheap - it doesn't make sense not to do it for anyone who has any issues with sleep or tiredness in the day.
I always thought that due to being female and a healthy weight, it wasn't something I needed to think about. I also didn't think I snored more than anyone else, so it took me years of poor sleep before a Doctor finally recommended I get tested.
Turns out OSA also can be caused or aggravated by: the size and shape of your mouth, the position you sleep in (I have twice as many events on my back vs side), and whether you tuck your chin in near your test (soft cervical collar helped for that). There are devices that alter how your mouth rests when sleeping (easier to breathe if your front teeth are forward) but they're possibly not good for your bite. CPAP/APAP is still the gold standard for a reason.
The coolest thing about CPAP though, is a lot of them have amazing metrics recorded if you pop in an SD card. And there's a big community built around open source software to analyze those metrics and tune the settings to minimize apnea events overnight.
Also, a cpap with a humidifier is amazing if you're prone to nose pain / nose bleeds due to dry air.
My comment is more of a complaint than a discussion so apologies, but I was disappointed recently because I did at an at home test and scored borderline. I was hopeful that it would be sleep apnea so I could go about solving my bad sleep, but a lab test showed conclusively that I didn’t have it.
I got checked out initially because I mentioned to my sister that I didn’t recall the last time I’d woken up and felt refreshed all day, even with 8+ hours, and she said “…that’s not good, get that checked out.”
Has someone found that they have better alcohol "recovery" if they are pursuing intense or at least regular(at least 3x a week) stamina building exercise like running/swimming?
I'm extremely sensitive to poor sleep. I also have nothing in my schedule that really prevents me from going to sleep early and sleeping late most of the time, and generally I at least achieve the former. The problem is that I have unbearable horrible nightmares every time I sleep. To the point where going to sleep is akin to going to hell itself, and I generally choose to forcibly wake myself up around like 6 a.m. just to get away from it all. I haven't really figured out a way around this.
I have as a kid. It might help you. As a kid, I instinctively (and later also consciously) have trained myself to become lucid while dreaming. When I become lucid, I gain some power. Then I trained myself to be more powerful in dreams.
For example, I can't fly, but I can (apparently) move the whole universe by a specific offset. I can also change the specific offset at a specific motion. So basically, I don't have flying powers, but I do have the powers of treating my dream like a Unity3D scene. And in that way, I can mimic flight.
I can also turn into a monster myself, usually into a worse monster than whatever I'm facing. I have become my nightmare's nightmare at certain points.
Nowadays though, whenever a nightmare hit I'm just unfazed. What also helps is that I let my nightmare and the creatures within it know that I am immortal. No matter what they do to me. In my dreams I am The Beginning and The End. I am all that will be there. They are there because of me. I'm essentially the only god that there is (I'm not religious but as far as my dreams are concerned, I am a god).
That throws off quite a lot of nightmares. The ones that persist, it's fine. They can test my immortality.
Is the author suggesting people to have to live with going through a phase of being nocturnal? In the free running algorithm, we're supposed to sleep 15 minutes later each day until we're falling asleep at like 9AM?
I once tried an extreme version of this. I became single and I already didn't have a fixed work schedule, so other than societal convention there was no reason for me to adhere to any regular day-night cycle.
So I tried sleeping when I was really tired, waking up without an alarm, eating when I was hungry, etc. I ignored watches, daylight and society. For context, my internal days have always been much longer than 24 hours, often finding myself going to sleep at sunrise; so I thought this was gonna be great, not having to spend an hour awake in bed.
It was horrible. And I mean HORRIBLE. I became a zombie, even though I was sleeping more than ever. I felt deeply depressed within two days. I lost all concept of the passage of time, and could never tell how long ago something had happened. I couldn't think properly or comunicate with other people. It affected me physically too, my weight, my stomach.
The experiment didn't last long. But I couldn't tell you how long.
That part didn't make any sense to me either. Yes, the natural circadian cycle in a vacuum is slightly over 24 hours, but exposure to light keeps it synced to the normal 24-hour day. If you free run sleep your cycle should stay locked to 24 hours, just like it has always been with our ancestors who lived without artificial light.
I believe Mathew Walker writes in 'Why we sleep' that people's natural circadian cycle varies but on average is 24h and 15 minutes. But yeah sounds pretty inconvenient for most people.
The explanation of the memory consolidation process during sleep was surprising and made me rethink my habit of using alarms and cutting back on sleep for overtime work.
I really liked the idea of "Free running sleep". Not sure how feasable would be to make it part of my routine TBH. I need to adhere to external schedules (job, family). Maybe someday I'll give it a honest try!
Biphasic/polyphasic sleeper here (not by choice). Makes the work week a lot trickier. I will be reading through this article for insight on how to get the most out of my situation.
I think a lot of it has to do with mental status, which can be concluded with one sentence -- "Are you happy with your life, and if not do you have a clear path to reach that?".
People who say no probably has a lot of trouble to get fit, get enough sleep -- sometimes NOT because they do not have the resources, but because they are not happy. They hate life, so why makes it better? I have observed this in myself so I wonder whether it is universally true.
I have observed that whenever I have a clear target in my life (e.g. I need to pursue this girl I like, or, I need to figure out Linux 1.0 VFS and I have a clear path before me), I immediately take care to do exercises, eat more healthy food, and try to get good sleep -- but if I cannot find an objective, or I have lost interests and are in the middle of finding a new one, I find myself a lot more obnoxious, and sometimes I "proactively" destroy my health because I don't care about it. Unfortunately I rarely find a clear path before me so the later status is more or less permanent while the former one is rare, maybe once per year -- but when I reach the first status it usually grabbed me for 2-3 months.
Mental stability is probably one of the reasons different people have vastly different productivity or achievements. It is mental stability that brings focus, not the other way around.
The older I get the more sensitive to a single poor night's sleep I become.
The most frustrating effect is that even a few drinks in the evening (maybe over 2-3 units). Unsettles my sleep that if I'm in the process of learning something feels like it sets me back several days.
That's not even counting the slowed processing I feel, and lower productivity the next day.
I genuinely have to revisit old information.
A genuine hangover from a heavy night can put me out of action for half a week!
When I was younger I'm not sure I had many good nights sleep let alone noticed a bad one!
I've heard that small amounts of alcohol can actually improve learning interestingly by preventing interference from events later in the day.
>The older I get the more sensitive to a single poor night's sleep I become.
Back when I was 20 I had a drinking problem. One time I drank so much that I passed out sitting on a table. Woke up with friends having stripped my clothes and washed them. I woke up at 9AM, feeling 100% sober, just anxious about my 20 missed calls from my mom. I got a bit drunk at about 33 and next day I thought I was dying.
That's how I learnt what hangovers were.
Again, at around 25, I helped my brother in-law move bee hives all night, including some 8 hours of driving.
Went straight to work and in the evening I had dinner with my wife at a restaurant.
Now I crash in bed at 9PM and if I'm lucky, I also sleep (but quite often I wake up at 2AM).
Getting old(er) sucks, and I'm only 42 and I miss so much how nice being in my 20 something body felt all the time.
I’m 49 and have all but given up on drinking. It does nothing for me except make me tired and then, ironically, mess up my sleep. On fridays I grill cheeseburgers for the family and usually have one Half-Life tall boy from Manhattan Brewery because it’s my favorite of all time but that’s about it. Otherwise, I don’t drink at all. Being tired and not sleeping well is handled perfectly adequately by my job hah.
I'm pretty much the same as you. I really like beer and wine and cocktails, but the bad sleep and feeling shitty the next day after even one drink isn't worth it. Thirty years ago hangovers were rare and could usually be ended with a cup of coffee, tylenol, and lots of water.
The next thing I have to back off on is sugar. It doesn't seem to mess up my sleep like booze, but I definitely notice it the day after I have that big bowl of ice cream or giant slice of cake. A big enough sugar binge feels pretty close to a hangover for me now.
This must be a marketing campaign bit
For a long time with sleep studies they would give participants a single unit of alcohol. Alcohol has always trashed sleep, even when younger.
> The older I get the more sensitive to a single poor night's sleep I become.
Can relate.
> The most frustrating effect is that even a few drinks in the evening (maybe over 2-3 units). Unsettles my sleep that if I'm in the process of learning something feels like it sets me back several days.
I'm not noticing it unsettles my learning but can relate to a few drinks already upsetting my sleep. I wouldn't be surprised if my learning would be impaired by at least a bit.
> When I was younger I'm not sure I had many good nights sleep let alone noticed a bad one!
Being young is a blessing that way.
I'm +35 years old by the way.
> I've heard that small amounts of alcohol can actually improve learning interestingly by preventing interference from events later in the day.
Do you have a source? Would be curious to look some of it up.
I'm in a similar age bracket.
Here is some research around the alcohol effect. What I found most surprising is the mean consumption was over 80g, since 8g of ethanol is a unit that's an astonishing mean of 10units.
I was of the impression that the effect was around 1 unit.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5524957/
While there's no consistent standard, most countries appear to be using something in the 10-14g range for what they call a "standard drink"/"unit" of alcohol. (UK is 8g, but the rest of the EU typically uses 10g or 12g, US uses 14g).
I actually hadn't realized until I went looking that the "standard drink" isn't much of an international standard unit at all. Will have to keep that in mind when reading papers/recommendations from different health authorities in the future.
-----
Anyway, it's pretty interesting. I'm not sure I'm going to believe the effect just on one noisy study, but even if the reality is something lesser - like it just not harming memory formation of things you'd learned earlier in the day, the implications are still a bit interesting.
It certainly adds a bit to some of the historical social biases against "day drinking", and also does a bit to explain how plenty of high-performing young people seem to use alcohol pretty heavily after they're done learning (college students partying, etc) with limited direct impacts on their educational performance.
Weird responses from those two users. Ignore them
Those responses are very much valid responses to a topic that some share as a valid conversational topic on a thread about getting good sleep and learning, myself included.
Even better, the topic is visited on part 6.2[1] of the article you're replying to.
1 https://super-memory.com/articles/sleep.htm#Alcohol
This type of response on the other hand, is not helpful at all and for a 14 day old account with this only post...Some might say you are the one worth ignoring.
Sounds like you have a problem with alcohol, not with sleeping.
What makes you say that?
Mentioning drinking three times (effects of drinks in the evening, hangover, effects on learning) in a single response might give an impression you like to drink.
I mean, they sell alcohol in shops for money, and not force it on you in some government-mandated way. Which kinda tells that people in general like to drink.
> Which kinda tells that people in general like to drink.
No, it just tells you there is enough demand for alcohol selling to be a profitable business, not that people in general like to drink.
There are bars everywhere
There are also gambling machines everywhere around me yet I don't know a single person who uses them.
I looked up numbers for the USA and 2025 54% said they consume alcohol. So it's most people but millions don't.
The topic is drinking so they mentioned drinking, and usually people do what they like to do, and in other news water is wet - but do we judge water for being wet? So let's stop virtue signaling because it's definitely not a show of virtue. I see where religious fundamentalism is taking the world and damn if I like it.
I’m not religious at all, and it’s not religious fundamentalism to point out that alcohol disrupts sleep, and that this likely is the primary factor affecting the poster’s sleep.
Also not religious fundamentalism to point out that alcohol is a known carcinogen (: that’s just science. It’s a Group 1 carcinogen, the same group as tobacco and asbestos.
Sunlight is a carcinogen
> Sunlight is a carcinogen
But sunlight is essential for the cutaneous conversion of 7-dehydrocholesterol to vitamin D3, whereas ethanol serves no essential purpose, irrespective of whether one enjoys it or not.
Personally I don’t consume ethanol; but I don’t care if others do or not so long as they stay off the roads and are not piloting my flight.
I will say that when I did consume ethanol even in small quantities, my sleep was much worse than it is at baseline; and that effect only worsened as I got older.
> "The topic is drinking"
The topic is sleeping.
The most important thing about sleep I learned is to fall asleep at the same moment of every day. Make it 22:00 or 23:00 or 00:00. Whatever is comfortable for you. But you have to stick to the chosen hour as hard as you can. Every day from now on it has to be that hour. After you get used to that you will notice a much better effect of the sleep.
A few years ago, I started having trouble sleeping through the night. I began making incremental changes in lifestyle, one at a time in order to test each variable. This experiment continued for several months without much success. (I had already quit drinking, so that was not a factor). Finally I found two lifestyle changes that seem to help: (1) I reduced stress in my life by working from home most days, and (2) I eliminated refined sugar and excess sodium from my diet. Since then, I am usually able to get about seven or eight hours of sleep most nights.
Stress is an obvious factor that disrupts sleep, and the article has a lot to say about stress. The article also briefly mentions diet and glucose metabolism: "Sleep deprivation research tells us that adequate sleep is particularly important for healthy glucose metabolism." For me, the causality also runs the other way: avoiding excessive sugar and sodium is essential to get adequate sleep.
How can I explain to my 6 months old girl that we all need to sleep :D
This is a bug in the universe! We need to sleep so that the levels of dopamine, and hormones of hunger and not hunger are at good levels, so that we can be healthy and strong, so that the immune system is stable and strong... And we need to get good sleep so that we can protect our children and be sane....
BUT the nature decided that the kids will wake up 3-4 times per night, and you need to wake up and take care of them.
You sleep in best case, on pauses, not more than 4-6 hours, you feel miserable, and at the same time you are THE HAPPIEST PERSON IN THIS WORLD! :)
In my area there is a saying like "it takes a village to raise a child". i believe that a good social network is not only important for the kid, but for the parents too. it helps so much to have a partner, grandparents, aunts/uncles, who can look over the kid just for a hour or 2, so you can get your rest. And its usually fun for the kids too. Now that i have 2 kids, a loving wife and 2 families around me, i have the highest respect for all the single moms/dads out there.
As immigrants with no local network, having kids is basically putting yourself under house arrest for a decade or so. You can post bail (pay a babysitter) for occasional reprieve. I mean sure you can go do outings with kids, but for most of them, do you really want to? I know mine aren't particularly enthralled by trips to the Rijksmuseum.
I don't think this is how humans usually raised kids...
We're in the same boat. Feels like mostly our society doesn't value having children - it's by and large not a very well supported activity. Even more so if you don't have immediate family to help support you.
Where’d you go? We were told Ireland values children but that didn’t match our experience (we moved to the Netherlands which has been better at least)
If you go to the third world kids are all running in the streets while both parents work and grandparents not doing fuck all to watch them either. The most practical answer is to relax negligence laws back to a sane level where as long as you're not torturing them and they are fed, "society" stays the fuck out of the punishment process.
I’d rather they not get run over… but generally agree with you
There is no nuclear family required anymore,
My parents are the village, and the village is the law.
https://youtu.be/skUUVejxDZc?si=unPgT-01QLAQ-lZB
This is why people critique the nuclear family—the degenerate village around the children that just consists of the parents, maybe grandparents at holidays. It’s a recipe for overworked adults.
I've got a Mexican American friend that lives multi-generationally and loves it. He's a few years out of high school with a good job in management and a nice car, money in the bank. His older brother gets help parenting from Tio and the grandparents, and generally everyone gets along well. He's almost kept up with me in savings for property and I'm married (our pay is pretty similar, but I have dual income). American culture optimizes for wastefulness and puts too much of an emphasis on independence, especially when arrangements like this exist that actually can lead to greater individual freedom in the long run.
Part of this is also our culture that somehow decided kids need their own bed, and it's easy to get baby formula.
So the kids are not sleeping in our beds, where they feel 100% secure, getting to the breast whenever they want (and they quickly will want it at a lesser frequency). The woman will feel this, but hardly has to wake up, me... I slept right through all that.
In our time everybody advised us: Give the bady a load of milk at 23:00 just before you go to bed! We never did, just stuck to about did 20:00, or just when baby cried, both babies took about 2 months to sleep for about 12 hours straight.
Anyway, not saying everybody is that lucky, just saying sometimes it's good to questions things that are given in one's culture. Worst advice imho is "let the baby cry" which was common on our days. How nice to let a baby cry alone in a room, not understanding anything about what happens...
FWIW, and understanding that individual babies do differ, most babies can sleep through the night (10-12 hours) by 3-4 months old. Check out the books "Twelve Hours' Sleep by Twelve Weeks Old" or "Precious Little Sleep" for guidance.
In my case where n=2, naps during the day are/were not all that consistent but at night (unless they are very sick or something) the kids sleep.
Yeah. My wife was breastfeeding and she could do that half-asleep. Barely any sleep was lost.
Last month there was a heartbreaking news about a < 6 month old baby being snatched away by a leopard while the baby was sleeping next to the parent and the parent realized her baby was missing only much later.
I imagine the predator situation would have been much worse during the early human evolution years. I don't know if that was a beneficial trait or not in that environment.
As a parent, I just wonder what-if.
> This is a bug in the universe!
Is it? Couldn't it be a bug in our society/economy instead? What if nature wanted us to take some naps through the day and not just one period of sleep in the night? Waking up multiple times at night wouldn't hurt too much then.
I can relate to this. Got two kids and I must say if someone told me that it will be this hard I wouldn't believe it.
Raising kids is the hardest and most fulfilling job.
How do I explain this to 15yo teenager?..
> There is only one formula for healthy and refreshing sleep: Go to sleep only when you are very tired. Not earlier. Not later. Wake up naturally without an alarm clock.
This is very easy to say when you're not suffering from insomnia and other sleep disorders.
>> sleep only when you are very tired
This flies in the face of all sleep research done at the Stanford Health Care’s Sleep Medicine Center.
You're confusing treatment for insomnia with recommendations for general sleep hygiene.
Wake up without an alarm clock is surely beneficial regardless of when you go to sleep?
or have even a single obligation in the morning
I am recently diagnosed with Type II Diabetes.
The classic symptoms were unknown to me until this point when I researched them.
I had previously blamed psych medications for the symptoms, and while they may have exacerbated them, I guess diabetes was the real root cause.
One of the symptoms is frequent urination. And so, every night I wake up every 2 hours or so and crawl into the bathroom. It’s legitimately a huge curse.
I don’t get enough deep R.E.M. and I remain exhausted just from the physical effort of get-up-and-go.
It’s very frustrating and sad to think that even after I’ve got my blood glucose under control, I still have these lingering symptoms that impact my QoL.
Eat right, kids; eat well or be cursed for life!
IMO Type 2 diabetes is manageable. My father struggled with it for decades and his last few years were not great. Having those same genes, I've spent a lot of time reading and following the data. My take is that T2 is quite manageable. Even reversible, if you focus on it. "Reversible" doesn't mean a lifelong cure, but you can push out your health days by a decade.
There are all kinds of solutions that work. High Protein, Mediterranean, Atkins, or even High Carb (the "good" kind). The breakdown usually happens in the "cocktail" of foods. Our bodies are not hybrid engines; we can not switch fuels mid-stream and expect optimal health. You have to pick a poison, let's say, a protein-based diet—and stick to it. Then exercise and intermittent fasting (IF) are force multipliers. I did strict IF for a year, but I have fallen off the wagon lately, only manage 3-4 days of IF a week. The difference in how I feel is stark.
What worked for me was something called "Lalit Kapoor" diet — basically a WFPB/vegan approach with heavy green juicing and fasting. My failure was primarily due to social friction. My family eats very differently. Making a special effort for every single meal eventually made me start taking the easy way. I still follow it but I wish I could be 100% rather than 80% and which is where all diets fail.
As a Spaniard I am trying to honor my ancestors and nap when I can, but man, it feels almost impossible most of the days. It could be that I am having too much anxiety/stress, too much coffee in the mornings, lack of practice, or maybe all of them. Any experiences related to learning to nap or what worked for you over here?
Fellow Spaniard here. Our ancestors were definitely onto something! I think the most important thing when it comes to napping is to show up: find a comfortable spot, use an eye mask, and set a timer for whatever time you have (I typically do something between 10 to 30 minutes). Just close your eyes and don’t open them until the alarm goes off.
I don’t always nap, but I make sure to do so if I haven’t had enough sleep or when I’m stressed or overworked. The more work I have, the more naps I take. Three back to back meetings? 15 minutes nap for your brain to organize and process the information dump. You get the gist. Doesn’t have to be after lunch, just a few minutes when you need/have them.
I used to do the Dali nap: find a comfortable spot, hold a spoon in your hand, and close your eyes. Once you fall asleep the spoon will fall from your hand and wake you up. That makes sure you go into hypnagogic state, great for problem solving as the brain is in a creativity sweet spot.
The technique I use now is not strictly a nap but a relaxation technique called NSDR: Non-Sleep Deep Rest. It’s kind of a guided meditation that deeply relaxes your body and nervous system. Just 10 minutes can feel as restorative as hours of sleep. You can check Andrew Huberman's scripts or Youtube videos for a more body-hacking, science-backed vive, or channels like are Ally Boothroyd's [0] for a more spiritual take on the concept, also known as Yoga Nidra.
I hope that helps. And best of luck with your napping, honor the ancestors!
[0] https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL19-3B-OVYoc1sdjBBKLB...
Thank you so much for your detailed answer! I definitely try to show up, but I am an anxious person and sometimes trying to nap makes me even more anxious. However, it is true that even when I don't manage to sleep it helps relaxing me and giving me some extra energy.
I've also read about NSDR and wanted to try it, so having some sources is really helpful. Do you always practice it with some guided meditation or can you do it on your own? I kind of not like guided meditation. (No reason, it's just that kind of feel wrong. Probably I should just open my mind and try it more.) Thank you so much!
Practice makes perfect! Keep on showing up and it will most likely get easier :)
I currently do not do guided NSDR that much, but it helped a lot at the time learning how to calm my thoughts and become deeply relaxed, especially the Ally guided sessions (as everything else, takes practice) so I would recommend to try the guided ones even if it feels awkward, until you learn how to stop your mind from wandering. I find it helps both with quick reset/recharge naps and falling back asleep if I wake up in the middle of the night (happens often for me).
Set a timer for 20 minutes, lie down (or at least close your eyes) and force yourself to stay motionless until the timer rings. Try to let your thoughts float freely... Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but you should try at least a few times. (And yes, maybe limit yourself to just one coffee in the morning.)
I try, but apart from the coffee (I usually take two, probably the second one interferes with my nap), I think it's the lack of consistency/practice what's making my napping difficult.
I think nearly everyone should be screened for sleep apnea. The at-home test you wear on your finger is so cheap - it doesn't make sense not to do it for anyone who has any issues with sleep or tiredness in the day.
I always thought that due to being female and a healthy weight, it wasn't something I needed to think about. I also didn't think I snored more than anyone else, so it took me years of poor sleep before a Doctor finally recommended I get tested.
Turns out OSA also can be caused or aggravated by: the size and shape of your mouth, the position you sleep in (I have twice as many events on my back vs side), and whether you tuck your chin in near your test (soft cervical collar helped for that). There are devices that alter how your mouth rests when sleeping (easier to breathe if your front teeth are forward) but they're possibly not good for your bite. CPAP/APAP is still the gold standard for a reason.
The coolest thing about CPAP though, is a lot of them have amazing metrics recorded if you pop in an SD card. And there's a big community built around open source software to analyze those metrics and tune the settings to minimize apnea events overnight.
Also, a cpap with a humidifier is amazing if you're prone to nose pain / nose bleeds due to dry air.
My comment is more of a complaint than a discussion so apologies, but I was disappointed recently because I did at an at home test and scored borderline. I was hopeful that it would be sleep apnea so I could go about solving my bad sleep, but a lab test showed conclusively that I didn’t have it.
I got checked out initially because I mentioned to my sister that I didn’t recall the last time I’d woken up and felt refreshed all day, even with 8+ hours, and she said “…that’s not good, get that checked out.”
Back to the drawing board :(
Has someone found that they have better alcohol "recovery" if they are pursuing intense or at least regular(at least 3x a week) stamina building exercise like running/swimming?
Unfortunately not in my case. I wouldn't be surprised if hangovers are worse if you're fit.
But what I've found is that forcing a run when hung over does help me move past it. Maybe it helps expel the metabolites from my body.
I'm extremely sensitive to poor sleep. I also have nothing in my schedule that really prevents me from going to sleep early and sleeping late most of the time, and generally I at least achieve the former. The problem is that I have unbearable horrible nightmares every time I sleep. To the point where going to sleep is akin to going to hell itself, and I generally choose to forcibly wake myself up around like 6 a.m. just to get away from it all. I haven't really figured out a way around this.
I have as a kid. It might help you. As a kid, I instinctively (and later also consciously) have trained myself to become lucid while dreaming. When I become lucid, I gain some power. Then I trained myself to be more powerful in dreams.
For example, I can't fly, but I can (apparently) move the whole universe by a specific offset. I can also change the specific offset at a specific motion. So basically, I don't have flying powers, but I do have the powers of treating my dream like a Unity3D scene. And in that way, I can mimic flight.
I can also turn into a monster myself, usually into a worse monster than whatever I'm facing. I have become my nightmare's nightmare at certain points.
Nowadays though, whenever a nightmare hit I'm just unfazed. What also helps is that I let my nightmare and the creatures within it know that I am immortal. No matter what they do to me. In my dreams I am The Beginning and The End. I am all that will be there. They are there because of me. I'm essentially the only god that there is (I'm not religious but as far as my dreams are concerned, I am a god).
That throws off quite a lot of nightmares. The ones that persist, it's fine. They can test my immortality.
I've trained myself to have powers in the dream, but I rarely, fully know that it's a dream, so it doesn't really help when it's all psychological.
Putting my laptop to sleep unfortunately didn't increase its memory
Is the author suggesting people to have to live with going through a phase of being nocturnal? In the free running algorithm, we're supposed to sleep 15 minutes later each day until we're falling asleep at like 9AM?
That's just incompatible with modern life right?
I once tried an extreme version of this. I became single and I already didn't have a fixed work schedule, so other than societal convention there was no reason for me to adhere to any regular day-night cycle.
So I tried sleeping when I was really tired, waking up without an alarm, eating when I was hungry, etc. I ignored watches, daylight and society. For context, my internal days have always been much longer than 24 hours, often finding myself going to sleep at sunrise; so I thought this was gonna be great, not having to spend an hour awake in bed.
It was horrible. And I mean HORRIBLE. I became a zombie, even though I was sleeping more than ever. I felt deeply depressed within two days. I lost all concept of the passage of time, and could never tell how long ago something had happened. I couldn't think properly or comunicate with other people. It affected me physically too, my weight, my stomach.
The experiment didn't last long. But I couldn't tell you how long.
That part didn't make any sense to me either. Yes, the natural circadian cycle in a vacuum is slightly over 24 hours, but exposure to light keeps it synced to the normal 24-hour day. If you free run sleep your cycle should stay locked to 24 hours, just like it has always been with our ancestors who lived without artificial light.
I believe Mathew Walker writes in 'Why we sleep' that people's natural circadian cycle varies but on average is 24h and 15 minutes. But yeah sounds pretty inconvenient for most people.
The explanation of the memory consolidation process during sleep was surprising and made me rethink my habit of using alarms and cutting back on sleep for overtime work.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10782443
I really liked the idea of "Free running sleep". Not sure how feasable would be to make it part of my routine TBH. I need to adhere to external schedules (job, family). Maybe someday I'll give it a honest try!
Biphasic/polyphasic sleeper here (not by choice). Makes the work week a lot trickier. I will be reading through this article for insight on how to get the most out of my situation.
justgetflux.com
Helped me start going to bed at 10pm
is this jesus of sleep