We are told that we are in a state of preparing for war. When we will start restricting luxury items, unnecessary private jet travel, energy waste in crypto-currencies, etc.?
Because it seems that for being so obsessed to be prepared for war the only ones affected are the working class. The rich are just wasting resources away like if there was no tomorrow.
I just see austerity 2.0 to cut citizens rights, cut services to the working class and transfer as much wealth and power to the super-rich as possible.
I am all for Europe being prepared for war. That is a necessity. So, I am all for better health care, better education, less dependency on foreign gas and oil, better funding for goverment programs ... real measures to be prepare for the worst and less bending over to rich foreign interests.
The only thing we can do is refuse to participate.
Europe no longer needs its people, our governments have demonstrated clearly that the average person is irrelevant and replaceable. Our industries have been sold off and outsourced, we no longer make anything except spreadsheets to enable globalists and asset stripping private equity parasites. Our history and diversity has been deemed non-sacrosanct, if some other country in the world can provide infinite cheaper labour then they are invited to replace us.
In a decade there will be no jobs even for the Uber imported class - we will all just be a burden on the super-rich who want to enjoy the European land in peace without so many people. Do not let them have this. Refuse to fight.
I fully understand not standing behind politicians and the likes. But I don’t get this stance. If the Russians come, you would hand over the country to them? And then what, emigrate?
I mean, fighting to protect the people of a country is also a thing, it doesn’t have to be for the politicians.
Invasions have historically destroyed elites that haven't or can't flee.
Which means business/scientific/... elites that see things coming far enough out are fine, or get out with a large loss. And yes, I'm sure there's the occasional one that's really smart that gets out with a small profit, but I'm sure a large loss is the more normal experience.
Political elites, which is the large majority: people who are rich because they have a role in government, directly or indirectly are fucked.
Don't know about cryptocurrencies, but private jets are a powerful symbol, and them not being the first thing paused when in an oil shortage sends a strong message to the rest of the population.
> I am all for Europe being prepared for war. That is a necessity.
Why? Name one scenario where EU needs a bigger army and masses of barely-trained conscripts.
If you say "Ukraine loses", why not spend all effort on helping Ukraine instead?
> So, I am all for better health care, better education, less dependency on foreign gas and oil, better funding for goverment programs ...
You do realize that preparing for war is insanely expensive and can only be funded by cutting all those other nice things? Also, what do we need education for if we actually expect many people to die in World War style ground warfare?
How about: Let's build some nukes, spend the rest of the money on Ukraine support, and forget about ground war conscription lunacy?
> If you say "Ukraine loses", why not spend all the effort into helping Ukraine instead?
It can't be allowed to cost any real amount of money. In case you're about to say that's a contradiction with Ukraine support: 96% of all EU support to Ukraine is a loan that has to be repaid (and the "90 billion" package will be that, as well). If Ukraine wins, the current tally is that 15% of all Ukrainian tax will go to, well, effectively Germany. Still better than living under Putin, I get it, but ...
As for Germany's own wars: the German state sees Germans as both expendable and cheap. As you point out, these wars are pretty much planned in at the moment.
Oh and making these weapons, whether that means nukes or the other weapon that has worked really well in Ukraine (killbots), is going to be massively unpopular. (What are these killbots? Think the terminator T-1-8, except with realistic tires that will actually work and only one gun [1], or in the air [2]) Especially once AI is built into them.
Why? Every soldier, every person, that sees those drones is going to realize exactly what the German state wants of them: the areal ones are suicide drones: the German military will use the Zap Brannigan technique. After all, 1 German corpse = 1 disabled drone. Or get shredded to pieces by an AI machine gun that never misses in hopes that your corpse ties up it's tires afterwards. Odds are not good, so there will need to be a lot of you doing that.
I'm sure they'll give you a gun and be very happy if you disable a drone with a shot instead of your corpse, but the only guns that kind of work are shotgun net-launchers, which we all know right now: the military will never approve.
Don't worry, I'm sure the higher ups will get medals. Not for actually going on the frontlines.
Oh and the news from the frontline: those drones themselves are pretty good against bullets. Even hitting them does not often disable them. And hitting them is very hard to begin with.
Oh and, of course, it's not "the state" demanding this, it's the current German population not wanting to give up, well anything, to improve the future. By the way: the only thing worth discussing to be (partially) given up, really, is social security (41% of expenditures). The next 4 biggest costs are healthcare (16%), government jobs (17%), transportation (12%) and (least important) education (9%).
So it boils down to the same thing it always boils down to: the population must work more. In the sense that a decent chunk of Germans who either don't work, or work in government, must get themselves private sector jobs.
Alternatives? Well ... I have someone here: Wait! Comrade! Just say No! We'll just eat the rich instead! As for your question which party put Putin in power ... we don't talk about that. How rich is Putin? We don't talk about that either. Aren't most of the German rich "clients" of the state even now? And won't state control make that worse? I said: We DO NOT talk about that! Eat the rich! And don't build defenses at all! That's the solution.
> 96% of all EU support to Ukraine is a loan that has to be repaid (and the "90 billion" package will be that, as well). If Ukraine wins, the current tally is that 15% of all Ukrainian tax will go to, well, effectively Germany.
EU expects to use Russia's frozen assets as collateral/reparations for repayment when Russia gives up/Ukraine wins. Everybody knows that Ukraine cannot repay themselves.
> whether that means nukes or the other weapon that has worked really well in Ukraine (killbots), is going to be massively unpopular.
This thinking dominates the current discourse and it is shockingly stupid. Making nukes and drones is bad and unpopular, alright.
So instead we "prepare for war" and "get ready for hard times" because it sounds so brave, so heroic and abstract. Politicians are suddenly allowed to spend staggering amounts of money on defense companies - people love it - and nobody wants to ask what exactly is the scenario we are preparing for.
> Because it seems that for being so obsessed to be prepared for war the only ones affected are the working class. The rich are just wasting resources away like if there was no tomorrow
In the US it was very fascinating to see the reaction to the Iran conflict. A bunch of geriatric pedowood actors and actual Epstein associates were seething that young men in general across the political spectrum who do not want to die in a pointless war of nothing in some god forsaken desert again.
I can recommend you to visit Michaelibad in Munich and check how the new reality in Germany looks like. Spoiler: it’s different than in movies from 90s.
If it was not enough of sight seeing in modern Germany next destination would be Alter Botanischer Garten in Munich. Fun fact: it was absolutely normal place two decades ago. I used to have a beer there since it’s close to the university.
you really did not explain what changed, what happens now there that isn't "normal" anymore. Treating you as a racist is the easy part, the problem is how you, as a racist, are treating people.
I guess we're living in two different areas of Europe. And regarding the last point:
> And the EU regime plans what? To send European military age men to die in a faraway foreign country fighting for foreign interests while their homes and way of living are under attack.
First of all, there is no "EU regime", only countries threatened by Russia daily, which decided they need to increase their defence spending to deter Russia. Europe collectively decided NOT to send people "to die in a faraway foreign country fighting for foreign interests" in spite of Trump's pressure to do so.
I cannot understand how German men can be expected to fight while women are exempt. It's pure sexism against men and also very insulting to women.
I'm opposed to conscription in general, but I live in Sweden with gender-neutral conscription laws, and I would do my best to defend my country if it became necessary. If I were a man in an alternate version of Sweden with male-only conscription, I would feel so disrespected and devalued by the state that I couldn't imagine myself defending it, so I would either join a non-state-affiliated resistance group or flee the country.
If I lived in Germany right now (even as a woman, but especially as a man), I would seriously consider emigrating to a more egalitarian country as soon as possible.
I think you ask the question wrong. There can be endless debates about whether woman should fight or not. The _real_ question is why only German men are restricted by the law. Even if women do not fight they should be subjected to the same restrictions as they'd have country-bound functions in a war scenario as well - be it fighting or not. And I'd even go a step further and argue that the rule should apply to each and everybody in Germany. It's kind of ridiculous that German men have their movement restricted because of a hypothetical defense situation while Ukrainian men are not just invited by Germany to avoid being drafted and they can come and go as they like.
Having said that. The real problem with that law is not even the law itself but how it came to being, which unveils a completely messed up and incompetent legislative procedure in the German government and parliament.
Women can help the front line fighters but if I was running a country I would not want to put a large number of women on the front, especially young women.
Sure they can fight and kill.
But a country that loses its ability to make more people won't last longer than a generation.
Two things a country needs from which all other needs derive: people and a border that can be defended.
Men historically get sacrificed to protect the border. And women "sacrificed" to make more people.
Food, entertainment, religion, government, taxes, education, etc... it's all to serve those two fundamental requirements.
I guess it depends on what you are used to and what you have grown to expect.
Life is not fair, but you can learn to accept what is expected from you by the circumstances of your birth. I had to serve in the military, because I was born a man and a Finnish citizen. I accepted that, because it was my lot in life. My rights and duties would have been different, had I been a woman or a Swedish or US citizen.
On the other hand, I would have found it extremely unfair if conscription had been based on a random lot. Regardless of if it would have covered only men or women as well. It would be unfair to condemn someone to serve due to bad luck, when another person like them is allowed to walk free.
Universality is the fundamental justification for conscription. Conscripts should only have to fight in a war that is serious enough that the country is willing to send all its sons (and daughters, if you prefer that) to risk their lives. If the country does not believe in the war enough to justify that, it should send volunteers, not conscripts.
The vast majority of men in my grandparents' generation served in WW2. Most of them saw combat. That was always the expectation what conscription is supposed to be for. My parents' generation saw their peers in the US conscripted and sent to fight in Vietnam. But only some men were conscripted, and only some conscripts were sent to Vietnam. It's not inherently wrong to use conscripts in a foreign war, but it's wrong to use them in a war that's too unpopular and too irrelevant to justify mobilizing the entire generation.
At the risk of feeding this troll, I'll go for it here.
Men and women are essentially different in real biological ways, as well as emotional and socialization.
For millennia, women and children have been held innocent and protected. This is why Christian societies don't throw them on the frontlines as cannon fodder, but rather, the men go in front and the men fight, as expendables, while the woman and children can be protected far behind the front lines of any conflict.
Women can bear children, feed their infants, and care for families even while men are occupied or absent. Women are much more capable of restarting a civilization even when the men are decimated. It is a very logical and pragmatic decision to protect women and children from warfare and violence.
Conversely, armies of female warriors have enjoyed legendary status as especially fierce and undefeated. How many of us have enjoyed "Wonder Woman", "Calafia", Amazons, and the rest?
Furthermore, a soldier may be victimized by rape. SA of a male has different consequences than SA of a mature woman. You can imagine that a woman who becomes pregnant faces difficult decisions for the rest of her life. Again, the expendable nature of men makes us less susceptible to SA and ransom plots and other manipulation by the enemy.
So the trouble today, is that women are "empowered by equality" and demand every right and privilege that is due to men, and that extends to dirty horrible jobs, and fighting in combat. Women who are empowered by equality are also going to be subjected to responsibilities and duties that they didn't have before. Societies are simply coming up with no other choice but to put women in combat, because the women are doing every other job and it seems absurd to hold back.
Naturally, putting women in harm's way, and even conscripting them, eventually seems necessary if the adversary is doing it too. I am not sure that our Islamic or East Asian adversaries are doing this, but perhaps Westerners believe that we can thus gain the upper hand. I propose that it will disadvantage and disgrace us instead.
> Men and women are essentially different in real biological ways, as well as emotional and socialization.
I fully agree, now, larger society doesn't and if all of my schooling is proof of it, feminism is the dominant discourse in Western Europe. So we can'be having women be fully equal in all spheres of society when it benefits women, but then remove them from every obligation those rights come with.
The full consequence of your ideas is that men and women are different people meaning it affects every sphere of life, and leads you to ask some unsavory questions, which doesn't mean curtailing women's rights necessarily but it does mean that the the way we model society and genders is opposite to reality, because when reality, like war, asks hard questions we default to the old order of men in the front and women in the factories.
The US military does not do combat, look at real engaged armies like the Ukranian/Russian one which are the closest examples to modern warfare between nation states.
I agree, I meant that armies engaged in conflicts are male like all armies have been in history, save the Soviets who had female battalions for propaganda purposes
Just curious – what privileges do you feel you've had to give up on the path to a slightly more equitable society?
Because as a man myself I honestly wouldn't be able to say which privileges I've lost that my forefathers enjoyed, besides sexism with impunity. In fact, I have it easier, for the time being at least. No military conscription for one. And with the recognition that the patriarchy hurts all I've been able to actualize myself in a way that is more authentic to myself than the constraints of past generations would have allowed.
Like being paid more (because they work in more dangerous or risky jobs) or having higher suicide rate or being able to wear clothes repeatedly without being judged. Not being forced to wear makeup
I don't get it. People who take dangerous or risky jobs nobody else wants do get paid more. Higher suicide rate has nothing to do with some privileges being taken away. As for clothes, it depends on your social circle - in mine people couldn't care less. As for make up, I have no idea what you mean.
> I would do my best to defend my country if it became necessary
I still don't understand this in my 40s and after serving in military (conscription) - why would you defend any country?
I can't imagine scenario when I am defending any country just because some other management wanna take over, I mean, what's the point risking your life for having different politicians maybe speaking different language.
If you fight people are gonna get killed, so unless it is some evil taking over who wanna do genocide, if it's just about gaining area/resources whar's the point in fighting?
I'd sure protect my own family if it would be in danger, but if I don't fight other soldiers why would they care about my family?
Btw. while I agree the conscription should be equal, you need much more women to repopulate the country than you need the men, since men don't give a birth.
You defend yourself, your family, your relatives and your friends.
You are not strong enough to defend these by yourself, so you can do this only by joining the army of the country in such cases.
It would be great if these kinds of actions would have become unnecessary in the modern society, but wars are still started by despicable humans like Putin, Trump and their associates, and there are even hundreds of millions of people who appear to approve such actions.
In the distant past there have existed a few "civilized" wars, where for much of the population it did not matter who won the war, because that just meant that they would pay the same taxes as before to a different authority, but they would just go on with their lives.
However, this has never happened again in modern wars.
In modern wars, the winners do not really have any use for the inhabitants of the occupied territory, so even when they avoid to kill them, they will just steal in one form or another most of what they own and they will discriminate them in various ways.
Especially the Russians have a long history of stealing everything they could from their neighbors after winning any war against them and making any conquered people 2nd class citizens, who had to give up their language, culture and history, and replace that with praising their Russian conquerors, rebranded as "liberators".
So when faced with something like a Russian invasion, which is a real risk for any neighbor of Russia, there is only one way of survival, which is "defending the country".
This is not some theory devoid of content, like the propaganda that American soldiers should invade for instance Cuba, because this "defends the interests of their country" (which is code for defending the interests of a few ultra-rich people).
When you are in Europe, there is a non-null risk that you might be forced in the future to "defend your country", as the only means for your own survival.
still fail to see how would fighting in organized army help my family instead of staying home, taking care of them and protect them from whoever wants to attack them directly
my family is not some dumb country, I have no allegiance to any country, heck I dont even live in country where I was born, but even if I was I cant imagine fighting whoever just to please local politicians
you are talking about some politicians wars, if people ignored politicians and everyone minded their own family there would be nobody to fight against
so once again, unless someone attacking plans to do genocide on us (like Israel vs Palestine), I dont see point in fighting (like Ukrainians should do with Russians, especially since they are basically brothers sharing same language, same recent past and it was really just about change of management)
Russia occupied my country for decades, people lived their lives, it was certainly better than if they died fighting them
"(1) Men may be called up for service in the armed forces, the Federal Border Guard, or a civil defence unit upon reaching the age of eighteen."
The current administration has a majority, I think three votes (excuse my inaccuracy), to change the constitution. Women can fight as well, and they do. But there is currently no legal, constitutional way to officially draft them.
Some of the toughest soldiers I trained were women. I got put on my back on international cqc training exchanges by Israeli women more often than by anyone else.
Also, most of the high-profile politicians only have daughters, take the German Chancellor (two daughters) or the Prime Minister of Bavaria (1 1/2 daughters). They don’t have any personal interest that their daughters might get drafted. That’s another dimension to the problem.
Women in general are a great military asset, as they provide a non-male perspective you won’t get only working with testosterone-dominated brains.
It’s not like women don’t want to protect their fellow citizens.
It’s that the German military has huge structural problems to include them into the force properly, and the people in charge also know that, for a lot of men serving, they are still not equal, and a lot of men in the service don’t want to fight alongside a woman and trust them to have their back.
It’s a mix of toxic masculinity bred inside the military and a lack of combat experience alongside women. If you ask any American or Israeli soldier who fought alongside women in actual combat, it will be tough to find anyone to critique their value as soldiers or questioning their equality in the service.
I also appreciate your female perspective on this very much. But Sweden, in terms of gender equality, is miles ahead of Germany in many places. And to be fair, Swedish women live a more independent and less male-reliant model of relationships and live than most people on this planet.
The German defence minister acknowledges this, btw, by often talking about how implementing the "Swedish model" would raise a next generation of soldiers with a more modern view of freedom and responsibility that is more balanced between the genders than the current conservative societal model in Germany that is the man goes to work, the woman stays at home and takes care of the kids and the man fights to protect them if necessary.
Probably. But it’s actually nice to see that my comment gets downvoted.
A lot of our modern human rights today come from the anti-war movement. This is a highly controversial topic, and I read a lot of interesting opinions in this thread. It’s hard to argue for combat readiness for both genders if most people right now witness the abuse of military superpower like in Ukraine by the Russians or in Iran, causing a lot of loss of life and hardship.
I have been through all this before. Young students shouting murderers at the airport, peace signs everywhere. Most of my colleagues were angry, I was happy so many people showed up and made their voice heard without fear or repression. That’s the kind of freedom you fight for. It’s not always pretty if you’re on the receiving end but I considered that part of the job.
We are too far away from the last real war in Europe, which was WWII, and forgot how massive thing it is. Let's start saying that a war or a preparation for it is an experience that cannot be expressed wholly by words. Our current life doesn't seem to be anything like that. That's because, IMHO, the war shenanigan is a forced artificial thing, imposed by background global forces just to sell some more weapons and spread some fear and worry. Not much more will happen.
I live in Greece, technically under a continuous more or less hot war with all our neighbours since the last 5 f.. centuries. Coping with aggressivity at group level needs deep historical experience, delicate balance above words and lines and knowing that "the best defense is the attack". Ideally, "the supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting", Sun Tzu, but it's difficult, even locally.
Leaders like the POTUS, the Chancellor or the "Czar" exert immense influence over the global stuff. Let's press all of them to behave sanely and throw out of their bed the weapon companies. In the 60's the USA had 60000 nuclear warheads, now 5000. Let's make them 60000 again so to stop all conventional wars overnight.
Agreed on all of this, they suck, especially the lobbyists pushing weapons. But shouldn’t we start we the likes of Putin? That would significantly lower the demand for weapons.
I feel it’s more realistic than getting rid of lobbyists unfortunately. (Still no clue as to how to achieve it though)
Russia is a very volatile region, politically and financially.
I believe Putin's aggressiveness is not real but due to pressure from Western dark powers. EVERY war Russia fought outside it's borders was lost. They don't need more land or a silly warm water port. It's the huge sum of power of global weaponry. If we fight them in the USA and Europe, Russia will follow.
Of course it's happening. I am not paranoid. But, the leaders win billions for themselves pushing people to fight. It's not a real intention of the Russian people but of the corrupt Polit-buro that is paid by Lockheed et al. I cannot say it more boldly.
The suspension doesn't change whether you get drafted or not, it just reduces peacetime bureaucracy at the expense of making a future draft more chaotic if it does happen.
> The usual suspect would first need to cross Poland, not to mention finishing what they started in Ukraine.
It doesn't look like they can break Ukraine anytime soon. And each month Ukraine bites back pushing the prospect of full-scale war with NATO (or what is left of it) even further.
Poland are in Nato, I'd expect europe wide deployment on an invasion. Itll definitely be volunteer forces at first, but I wouldn't hold my breath on conscripted forces never being deployed if it goes into a quagmire like ukraine.
Really? I did expect nothing would happen. I though it was just a very old rule that was not enforced. Low low chance they could or would have enforced that.
I do not know if this has changed during the recent decades, but indeed in the past it was standard in all countries for the military fitness physical exam to be done nude (for males).
Moreover, it was completely pointless to be shy about this, because if you were conscripted, the norm was to have common showers, so anyone could have a good look at you for much more than the few seconds of the physical exam.
A doc holding your balls and asking you to cough checks for an inguinal hernia, where your intestine pushes through the inguinal canal. This canal is much wider in men, hence it being much more common in men.
I am in no position to judge the procedure on a medical basis but know that it is (or was) near universal for potential recruits and has become a bit of a meme.
Your strong reaction to this procedure is something for you to dwell on.
I don't care. Until being 18 years old I had had no opinion or even an idea that there exist a commission waiting to see my genitals. It's when you refuse then they become obsessed to enforce and conduct the examination.
Because there is no such commission? Are you sure, you went through a mustering physical? There is no commission waiting to see your wiener. There is an MD to examine you. The MD writes a report that is attached to your file.
What the commission might get serious with is enforcing the mustering process, regardless if it is about the medical exam or the aptitude tests.
Yes there is, it's literally military commission with military medical board. Personal experience and the quality of "medical proffessionals" in it may vary from country to country.
It used to be that way, and probably will be that way again. I know of a few of people who got an early testicular cancer diagnosis that way. So it seems that there is a medical use for it.
Military medical exam is not for medical diagnosis! They don't care, they're there to enforce. It's worth the same as a dude pissing into urinal next to you and saying "nice balls mate". For official medical diagnosis you have to go through the procedures within healthcare system in your country.
Might be a different situation in other countries but in my country (Poland) showing your wiener to military guys will certainly not have any positive or constructive medical outcome. It's just a primitive domination and compliance ritual where they "verify your gender".
whats the deal here with the genitals? normal part of life, and having someone check if theres nothing weird/curious in a full body health check doesn't sound unreasonable. was okay for me too. and girls do get their private parts inspected deeper every year at the female health docs than once in a lifetime ball touching from some drafter, different level, just accept it
Don't be ridiculous. You really don't see a difference between someone choosing to see a doctor for their own benefit and the state forcing someone to be subjected to an examination for the state's benefit?
Nobody should accept gender discrimination or being touched without consent.
at this point sensible/reasonable tradeoffs should be reintroduced again. absolutist stances like that, no matter how well intended, are bullshit. its simply not black and white, you just happen to draw a line on the extreme sensitivity side compared to others. its okay, but a you problem.
Even touch without consent is explicitly a thing that will be accepted by any sane human. example: someone grabbing your shoulders last second to pull you back from a street crossing before a car hits you that you didn't see coming by yourself. There are even laws in some countries when you do NOT help in acute situations you can go to jail. And at the end it IS touch, without consent.
I just don't get why genitals are such a big deal to begin with. but also baltic sea here, people go naked to beaches or in saunas without blinking since ever.
How far do you take that? One medical condition that has been considered militarily relevant is flat feet. If the state can draft people, can they make you show them your feet? If you can't avoid the draft but can avoid the medical exam, isn't that a way of avoiding the draft?
I see a subtle difference between being barefoot and showing cock and balls to half dozen strangers. I know of at least one American president who avoided being drafted because of his "feet situation".
eh, this stirs memories of the similar exam in Italy (abolished ~20 years ago).
The doctor would also grab your testicles and ask to cough, to diagnose varicocele. I wonder how many young men have undiagnosed issues since the military exam was abolished.
The rule isn't new, it existed for decades all the way back to the beginnings of the Cold War. Nobody cared back then (neither the people nor the army), nobody should care now (there are no sanctions). I guess some journalist was actually reading through the consciption law (as probably the only person on the planet), stumbled over that passage and turned it into an elephant.
"Die Regelung habe bereits in den Zeiten des Kalten Krieges gegolten "und hatte keine praktische Relevanz", teilte das Ministerium mit. Sie sei auch nicht sanktioniert. Im Gegensatz zur alten Fassung gilt die Genehmigungspflicht nun auch außerhalb des Spannungs- und Verteidigungsfalls."
The rule existed, but apparently they broadened the scope. In any case, even if the rule is ignored nothing happens - so the question is of course why that rule exists in the first place of course.
When there's a rule with a condition that meant the rule hasn't applied for decades, and then the condition is removed so that the rule always applies, it's no longer the same rule.
Rules that are not enforced are bad as they create space for arbitrariness and corruption. It was a mistake by gov't, opposition & media that this wasn't spotted at the time the law was revised.
The most surprising thing is that the ministry didn't figure this out itself. You'd expect the people drafting laws to consider such things. Thus, it's an indicator of ministerial sloppiness. Not a nothingburger.
It may not be sloppiness. Consider the official statement as shared in this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=47789061.
The ministry of defense will issue an 'exception' that generally applies.
Presumably, revoking this exception is straightforward and much easier than passing a new law.
> The most surprising thing is that the ministry didn't figure this out itself. Thus, it's an indicator of ministerial sloppiness.
This I agree with. Might have to do with law changes requiring a two-thirds-majority in parliament though. They could have communicated earlier and better though.
The way laws work there is that each law either enumerates the penalties itself or the law of penalties enumerates them. So for each law you only have to check two places to know what the penalties are.
We are told that we are in a state of preparing for war. When we will start restricting luxury items, unnecessary private jet travel, energy waste in crypto-currencies, etc.?
Because it seems that for being so obsessed to be prepared for war the only ones affected are the working class. The rich are just wasting resources away like if there was no tomorrow.
I just see austerity 2.0 to cut citizens rights, cut services to the working class and transfer as much wealth and power to the super-rich as possible.
I am all for Europe being prepared for war. That is a necessity. So, I am all for better health care, better education, less dependency on foreign gas and oil, better funding for goverment programs ... real measures to be prepare for the worst and less bending over to rich foreign interests.
>> Because it seems that for being so obsessed to be prepared for war the only ones affected are the working class.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWijx_AgPiA
The only thing we can do is refuse to participate.
Europe no longer needs its people, our governments have demonstrated clearly that the average person is irrelevant and replaceable. Our industries have been sold off and outsourced, we no longer make anything except spreadsheets to enable globalists and asset stripping private equity parasites. Our history and diversity has been deemed non-sacrosanct, if some other country in the world can provide infinite cheaper labour then they are invited to replace us.
In a decade there will be no jobs even for the Uber imported class - we will all just be a burden on the super-rich who want to enjoy the European land in peace without so many people. Do not let them have this. Refuse to fight.
I fully understand not standing behind politicians and the likes. But I don’t get this stance. If the Russians come, you would hand over the country to them? And then what, emigrate?
I mean, fighting to protect the people of a country is also a thing, it doesn’t have to be for the politicians.
> Refuse to fight.
How would that change any of the stuff you lament?
Even the worst imaginable invasion would change little for the elites but a lot more for everybody else.
Invasions have historically destroyed elites that haven't or can't flee.
Which means business/scientific/... elites that see things coming far enough out are fine, or get out with a large loss. And yes, I'm sure there's the occasional one that's really smart that gets out with a small profit, but I'm sure a large loss is the more normal experience.
Political elites, which is the large majority: people who are rich because they have a role in government, directly or indirectly are fucked.
[dead]
The EU is carrying out the Kalergi Plan, war is good because it helps them demographically replace Europeans quicker.
If that’s obsession you really need to read some history books. Germany is barely lifting a finger.
Private jet travel? Cryptocurrencies? You’re just naming things that you don’t like. The reality is that these are not large contributors.
What would you say?
Don't know about cryptocurrencies, but private jets are a powerful symbol, and them not being the first thing paused when in an oil shortage sends a strong message to the rest of the population.
Look at any other war in human history, when was this any different for the upper classes?
> I am all for Europe being prepared for war. That is a necessity.
Why? Name one scenario where EU needs a bigger army and masses of barely-trained conscripts.
If you say "Ukraine loses", why not spend all effort on helping Ukraine instead?
> So, I am all for better health care, better education, less dependency on foreign gas and oil, better funding for goverment programs ...
You do realize that preparing for war is insanely expensive and can only be funded by cutting all those other nice things? Also, what do we need education for if we actually expect many people to die in World War style ground warfare?
How about: Let's build some nukes, spend the rest of the money on Ukraine support, and forget about ground war conscription lunacy?
> If you say "Ukraine loses", why not spend all the effort into helping Ukraine instead?
It can't be allowed to cost any real amount of money. In case you're about to say that's a contradiction with Ukraine support: 96% of all EU support to Ukraine is a loan that has to be repaid (and the "90 billion" package will be that, as well). If Ukraine wins, the current tally is that 15% of all Ukrainian tax will go to, well, effectively Germany. Still better than living under Putin, I get it, but ...
As for Germany's own wars: the German state sees Germans as both expendable and cheap. As you point out, these wars are pretty much planned in at the moment.
Oh and making these weapons, whether that means nukes or the other weapon that has worked really well in Ukraine (killbots), is going to be massively unpopular. (What are these killbots? Think the terminator T-1-8, except with realistic tires that will actually work and only one gun [1], or in the air [2]) Especially once AI is built into them.
Why? Every soldier, every person, that sees those drones is going to realize exactly what the German state wants of them: the areal ones are suicide drones: the German military will use the Zap Brannigan technique. After all, 1 German corpse = 1 disabled drone. Or get shredded to pieces by an AI machine gun that never misses in hopes that your corpse ties up it's tires afterwards. Odds are not good, so there will need to be a lot of you doing that.
I'm sure they'll give you a gun and be very happy if you disable a drone with a shot instead of your corpse, but the only guns that kind of work are shotgun net-launchers, which we all know right now: the military will never approve.
Don't worry, I'm sure the higher ups will get medals. Not for actually going on the frontlines.
Oh and the news from the frontline: those drones themselves are pretty good against bullets. Even hitting them does not often disable them. And hitting them is very hard to begin with.
Oh and, of course, it's not "the state" demanding this, it's the current German population not wanting to give up, well anything, to improve the future. By the way: the only thing worth discussing to be (partially) given up, really, is social security (41% of expenditures). The next 4 biggest costs are healthcare (16%), government jobs (17%), transportation (12%) and (least important) education (9%).
So it boils down to the same thing it always boils down to: the population must work more. In the sense that a decent chunk of Germans who either don't work, or work in government, must get themselves private sector jobs.
Alternatives? Well ... I have someone here: Wait! Comrade! Just say No! We'll just eat the rich instead! As for your question which party put Putin in power ... we don't talk about that. How rich is Putin? We don't talk about that either. Aren't most of the German rich "clients" of the state even now? And won't state control make that worse? I said: We DO NOT talk about that! Eat the rich! And don't build defenses at all! That's the solution.
[1] https://gdb.rferl.org/01000000-0aff-0242-3688-08dc5fafb30c_w...
[2] https://www.twz.com/news-features/inside-ukraines-fiber-opti...
> 96% of all EU support to Ukraine is a loan that has to be repaid (and the "90 billion" package will be that, as well). If Ukraine wins, the current tally is that 15% of all Ukrainian tax will go to, well, effectively Germany.
EU expects to use Russia's frozen assets as collateral/reparations for repayment when Russia gives up/Ukraine wins. Everybody knows that Ukraine cannot repay themselves.
> whether that means nukes or the other weapon that has worked really well in Ukraine (killbots), is going to be massively unpopular.
This thinking dominates the current discourse and it is shockingly stupid. Making nukes and drones is bad and unpopular, alright.
So instead we "prepare for war" and "get ready for hard times" because it sounds so brave, so heroic and abstract. Politicians are suddenly allowed to spend staggering amounts of money on defense companies - people love it - and nobody wants to ask what exactly is the scenario we are preparing for.
> 96% of all EU support to Ukraine is a loan
Most EU support is not repaid
> the German state sees Germans as both expendable and cheap
Germany hasn't lost a soldier in combat in over 10 years
> terminator
The rest is not even wrong
> Because it seems that for being so obsessed to be prepared for war the only ones affected are the working class. The rich are just wasting resources away like if there was no tomorrow
In the US it was very fascinating to see the reaction to the Iran conflict. A bunch of geriatric pedowood actors and actual Epstein associates were seething that young men in general across the political spectrum who do not want to die in a pointless war of nothing in some god forsaken desert again.
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Remind me, what part of Europe do you live in again?
I can recommend you to visit Michaelibad in Munich and check how the new reality in Germany looks like. Spoiler: it’s different than in movies from 90s.
If it was not enough of sight seeing in modern Germany next destination would be Alter Botanischer Garten in Munich. Fun fact: it was absolutely normal place two decades ago. I used to have a beer there since it’s close to the university.
So... did you get robbed or stabbed in Munich or are just racist?
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you really did not explain what changed, what happens now there that isn't "normal" anymore. Treating you as a racist is the easy part, the problem is how you, as a racist, are treating people.
I guess we're living in two different areas of Europe. And regarding the last point:
> And the EU regime plans what? To send European military age men to die in a faraway foreign country fighting for foreign interests while their homes and way of living are under attack.
First of all, there is no "EU regime", only countries threatened by Russia daily, which decided they need to increase their defence spending to deter Russia. Europe collectively decided NOT to send people "to die in a faraway foreign country fighting for foreign interests" in spite of Trump's pressure to do so.
Ok Garry. Reference: (near-end) https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IBsau5GlYcU&ra=m
I cannot understand how German men can be expected to fight while women are exempt. It's pure sexism against men and also very insulting to women.
I'm opposed to conscription in general, but I live in Sweden with gender-neutral conscription laws, and I would do my best to defend my country if it became necessary. If I were a man in an alternate version of Sweden with male-only conscription, I would feel so disrespected and devalued by the state that I couldn't imagine myself defending it, so I would either join a non-state-affiliated resistance group or flee the country.
If I lived in Germany right now (even as a woman, but especially as a man), I would seriously consider emigrating to a more egalitarian country as soon as possible.
I think you ask the question wrong. There can be endless debates about whether woman should fight or not. The _real_ question is why only German men are restricted by the law. Even if women do not fight they should be subjected to the same restrictions as they'd have country-bound functions in a war scenario as well - be it fighting or not. And I'd even go a step further and argue that the rule should apply to each and everybody in Germany. It's kind of ridiculous that German men have their movement restricted because of a hypothetical defense situation while Ukrainian men are not just invited by Germany to avoid being drafted and they can come and go as they like.
Having said that. The real problem with that law is not even the law itself but how it came to being, which unveils a completely messed up and incompetent legislative procedure in the German government and parliament.
Women can help the front line fighters but if I was running a country I would not want to put a large number of women on the front, especially young women.
Sure they can fight and kill.
But a country that loses its ability to make more people won't last longer than a generation.
Two things a country needs from which all other needs derive: people and a border that can be defended.
Men historically get sacrificed to protect the border. And women "sacrificed" to make more people.
Food, entertainment, religion, government, taxes, education, etc... it's all to serve those two fundamental requirements.
> And women "sacrificed" to make more people.
By and large, women stopped "sacrificing" a while ago, globally - or at least reduced it by large numbers.
Which is completely fine.
But it makes the original point moot.
It's fine for now. Fast forward even 100 years and tell me what population numbers look like.
Then another 100 years.
That's a big fat zero for both.
And men did the same, no?
If you are okay with men being forced to go to war by laws, are you also okay with women being forced to "make more people" by laws ?
I hate to call out the obvious, but sacrificing is mandated by laws only in one case.
“By law“ is funny, as if it was all a legal case. I’m sure Putin respects all international laws.
Come visit us, we got Germans of every race and color.
Why make more people? Just import more immigrants to make up for the losses, it's the neo liberal way.
This but unironically. Immigration is good, actually.
I guess it depends on what you are used to and what you have grown to expect.
Life is not fair, but you can learn to accept what is expected from you by the circumstances of your birth. I had to serve in the military, because I was born a man and a Finnish citizen. I accepted that, because it was my lot in life. My rights and duties would have been different, had I been a woman or a Swedish or US citizen.
On the other hand, I would have found it extremely unfair if conscription had been based on a random lot. Regardless of if it would have covered only men or women as well. It would be unfair to condemn someone to serve due to bad luck, when another person like them is allowed to walk free.
Universality is the fundamental justification for conscription. Conscripts should only have to fight in a war that is serious enough that the country is willing to send all its sons (and daughters, if you prefer that) to risk their lives. If the country does not believe in the war enough to justify that, it should send volunteers, not conscripts.
The vast majority of men in my grandparents' generation served in WW2. Most of them saw combat. That was always the expectation what conscription is supposed to be for. My parents' generation saw their peers in the US conscripted and sent to fight in Vietnam. But only some men were conscripted, and only some conscripts were sent to Vietnam. It's not inherently wrong to use conscripts in a foreign war, but it's wrong to use them in a war that's too unpopular and too irrelevant to justify mobilizing the entire generation.
At the risk of feeding this troll, I'll go for it here.
Men and women are essentially different in real biological ways, as well as emotional and socialization.
For millennia, women and children have been held innocent and protected. This is why Christian societies don't throw them on the frontlines as cannon fodder, but rather, the men go in front and the men fight, as expendables, while the woman and children can be protected far behind the front lines of any conflict.
Women can bear children, feed their infants, and care for families even while men are occupied or absent. Women are much more capable of restarting a civilization even when the men are decimated. It is a very logical and pragmatic decision to protect women and children from warfare and violence.
Conversely, armies of female warriors have enjoyed legendary status as especially fierce and undefeated. How many of us have enjoyed "Wonder Woman", "Calafia", Amazons, and the rest?
Furthermore, a soldier may be victimized by rape. SA of a male has different consequences than SA of a mature woman. You can imagine that a woman who becomes pregnant faces difficult decisions for the rest of her life. Again, the expendable nature of men makes us less susceptible to SA and ransom plots and other manipulation by the enemy.
So the trouble today, is that women are "empowered by equality" and demand every right and privilege that is due to men, and that extends to dirty horrible jobs, and fighting in combat. Women who are empowered by equality are also going to be subjected to responsibilities and duties that they didn't have before. Societies are simply coming up with no other choice but to put women in combat, because the women are doing every other job and it seems absurd to hold back.
Naturally, putting women in harm's way, and even conscripting them, eventually seems necessary if the adversary is doing it too. I am not sure that our Islamic or East Asian adversaries are doing this, but perhaps Westerners believe that we can thus gain the upper hand. I propose that it will disadvantage and disgrace us instead.
> Men and women are essentially different in real biological ways, as well as emotional and socialization.
I fully agree, now, larger society doesn't and if all of my schooling is proof of it, feminism is the dominant discourse in Western Europe. So we can'be having women be fully equal in all spheres of society when it benefits women, but then remove them from every obligation those rights come with.
The full consequence of your ideas is that men and women are different people meaning it affects every sphere of life, and leads you to ask some unsavory questions, which doesn't mean curtailing women's rights necessarily but it does mean that the the way we model society and genders is opposite to reality, because when reality, like war, asks hard questions we default to the old order of men in the front and women in the factories.
I think you have a misconception of how modern militaries work and think every one is out with a gun fighting.
Only around 10% of the US military is in combat roles.
The US military does not do combat, look at real engaged armies like the Ukranian/Russian one which are the closest examples to modern warfare between nation states.
How do you mean? I see daily videos of Russian men being killed by drones.
I agree, I meant that armies engaged in conflicts are male like all armies have been in history, save the Soviets who had female battalions for propaganda purposes
> or millennia, women and children have been held innocent and protected
This is a Victorian (or incel) look back at history.
We already disgrace ourselves by having some of the core ideologies of our society being blatant lies.
We have been repeatedly told that "equality" is primordial to our values. That men had to forego their privileges in the name of it.
The hypocrisy of the defenders of those ideas suddenly being so complacent when we look at the other side of the coin is revolting.
Just curious – what privileges do you feel you've had to give up on the path to a slightly more equitable society?
Because as a man myself I honestly wouldn't be able to say which privileges I've lost that my forefathers enjoyed, besides sexism with impunity. In fact, I have it easier, for the time being at least. No military conscription for one. And with the recognition that the patriarchy hurts all I've been able to actualize myself in a way that is more authentic to myself than the constraints of past generations would have allowed.
> what privileges do you feel you've had to give up on the path to a slightly more equitable society?
None. The privileges that I was supposed to enjoy thanks to my gender were either vastly exaggerated or already revoked.
But I still get to "enjoy" the measures installed to counterbalance and compensate for them anyway.
> No military conscription for one
Lucky you. I don't. And the voters for "equality" massively voted to keep it that way for me a few months ago [0]
[0] https://www.rts.ch/info/suisse/2025/article/double-non-aux-i...
> That men had to forego their privileges in the name of it.
Care to name a few?
Like being paid more (because they work in more dangerous or risky jobs) or having higher suicide rate or being able to wear clothes repeatedly without being judged. Not being forced to wear makeup
I don't get it. People who take dangerous or risky jobs nobody else wants do get paid more. Higher suicide rate has nothing to do with some privileges being taken away. As for clothes, it depends on your social circle - in mine people couldn't care less. As for make up, I have no idea what you mean.
> I would do my best to defend my country if it became necessary
I still don't understand this in my 40s and after serving in military (conscription) - why would you defend any country?
I can't imagine scenario when I am defending any country just because some other management wanna take over, I mean, what's the point risking your life for having different politicians maybe speaking different language.
If you fight people are gonna get killed, so unless it is some evil taking over who wanna do genocide, if it's just about gaining area/resources whar's the point in fighting?
I'd sure protect my own family if it would be in danger, but if I don't fight other soldiers why would they care about my family?
Btw. while I agree the conscription should be equal, you need much more women to repopulate the country than you need the men, since men don't give a birth.
You do not defend "the country".
You defend yourself, your family, your relatives and your friends.
You are not strong enough to defend these by yourself, so you can do this only by joining the army of the country in such cases.
It would be great if these kinds of actions would have become unnecessary in the modern society, but wars are still started by despicable humans like Putin, Trump and their associates, and there are even hundreds of millions of people who appear to approve such actions.
In the distant past there have existed a few "civilized" wars, where for much of the population it did not matter who won the war, because that just meant that they would pay the same taxes as before to a different authority, but they would just go on with their lives.
However, this has never happened again in modern wars.
In modern wars, the winners do not really have any use for the inhabitants of the occupied territory, so even when they avoid to kill them, they will just steal in one form or another most of what they own and they will discriminate them in various ways.
Especially the Russians have a long history of stealing everything they could from their neighbors after winning any war against them and making any conquered people 2nd class citizens, who had to give up their language, culture and history, and replace that with praising their Russian conquerors, rebranded as "liberators".
So when faced with something like a Russian invasion, which is a real risk for any neighbor of Russia, there is only one way of survival, which is "defending the country".
This is not some theory devoid of content, like the propaganda that American soldiers should invade for instance Cuba, because this "defends the interests of their country" (which is code for defending the interests of a few ultra-rich people).
When you are in Europe, there is a non-null risk that you might be forced in the future to "defend your country", as the only means for your own survival.
still fail to see how would fighting in organized army help my family instead of staying home, taking care of them and protect them from whoever wants to attack them directly
my family is not some dumb country, I have no allegiance to any country, heck I dont even live in country where I was born, but even if I was I cant imagine fighting whoever just to please local politicians
you are talking about some politicians wars, if people ignored politicians and everyone minded their own family there would be nobody to fight against
so once again, unless someone attacking plans to do genocide on us (like Israel vs Palestine), I dont see point in fighting (like Ukrainians should do with Russians, especially since they are basically brothers sharing same language, same recent past and it was really just about change of management)
Russia occupied my country for decades, people lived their lives, it was certainly better than if they died fighting them
It’s a constitutional issue.
Article 12a of the German constitution states:
"(1) Men may be called up for service in the armed forces, the Federal Border Guard, or a civil defence unit upon reaching the age of eighteen."
The current administration has a majority, I think three votes (excuse my inaccuracy), to change the constitution. Women can fight as well, and they do. But there is currently no legal, constitutional way to officially draft them.
Some of the toughest soldiers I trained were women. I got put on my back on international cqc training exchanges by Israeli women more often than by anyone else.
Also, most of the high-profile politicians only have daughters, take the German Chancellor (two daughters) or the Prime Minister of Bavaria (1 1/2 daughters). They don’t have any personal interest that their daughters might get drafted. That’s another dimension to the problem.
Women in general are a great military asset, as they provide a non-male perspective you won’t get only working with testosterone-dominated brains.
It’s not like women don’t want to protect their fellow citizens.
It’s that the German military has huge structural problems to include them into the force properly, and the people in charge also know that, for a lot of men serving, they are still not equal, and a lot of men in the service don’t want to fight alongside a woman and trust them to have their back.
It’s a mix of toxic masculinity bred inside the military and a lack of combat experience alongside women. If you ask any American or Israeli soldier who fought alongside women in actual combat, it will be tough to find anyone to critique their value as soldiers or questioning their equality in the service.
I also appreciate your female perspective on this very much. But Sweden, in terms of gender equality, is miles ahead of Germany in many places. And to be fair, Swedish women live a more independent and less male-reliant model of relationships and live than most people on this planet.
The German defence minister acknowledges this, btw, by often talking about how implementing the "Swedish model" would raise a next generation of soldiers with a more modern view of freedom and responsibility that is more balanced between the genders than the current conservative societal model in Germany that is the man goes to work, the woman stays at home and takes care of the kids and the man fights to protect them if necessary.
This answer is so hilariously German )
Probably. But it’s actually nice to see that my comment gets downvoted.
A lot of our modern human rights today come from the anti-war movement. This is a highly controversial topic, and I read a lot of interesting opinions in this thread. It’s hard to argue for combat readiness for both genders if most people right now witness the abuse of military superpower like in Ukraine by the Russians or in Iran, causing a lot of loss of life and hardship.
I have been through all this before. Young students shouting murderers at the airport, peace signs everywhere. Most of my colleagues were angry, I was happy so many people showed up and made their voice heard without fear or repression. That’s the kind of freedom you fight for. It’s not always pretty if you’re on the receiving end but I considered that part of the job.
Here is an official response from the Bundeswehr (German):
https://www.bundeswehr.de/de/organisation/zahlen-daten-fakte...
It's ridiculous that the German government now has to officially state "Please ignore the letter of the law, we didn't mean it that way."
That is the main problem with it. It shows the incompetence of our legislative procedures.
Hey, look who doesn't understand how the laws are made now.
We are too far away from the last real war in Europe, which was WWII, and forgot how massive thing it is. Let's start saying that a war or a preparation for it is an experience that cannot be expressed wholly by words. Our current life doesn't seem to be anything like that. That's because, IMHO, the war shenanigan is a forced artificial thing, imposed by background global forces just to sell some more weapons and spread some fear and worry. Not much more will happen.
Ok, that might be true, but what do you suggest if the aggressor is at your door? Discuss and convince them they are being manipulated?
I live in Greece, technically under a continuous more or less hot war with all our neighbours since the last 5 f.. centuries. Coping with aggressivity at group level needs deep historical experience, delicate balance above words and lines and knowing that "the best defense is the attack". Ideally, "the supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting", Sun Tzu, but it's difficult, even locally.
Leaders like the POTUS, the Chancellor or the "Czar" exert immense influence over the global stuff. Let's press all of them to behave sanely and throw out of their bed the weapon companies. In the 60's the USA had 60000 nuclear warheads, now 5000. Let's make them 60000 again so to stop all conventional wars overnight.
Agreed on all of this, they suck, especially the lobbyists pushing weapons. But shouldn’t we start we the likes of Putin? That would significantly lower the demand for weapons.
I feel it’s more realistic than getting rid of lobbyists unfortunately. (Still no clue as to how to achieve it though)
Russia is a very volatile region, politically and financially. I believe Putin's aggressiveness is not real but due to pressure from Western dark powers. EVERY war Russia fought outside it's borders was lost. They don't need more land or a silly warm water port. It's the huge sum of power of global weaponry. If we fight them in the USA and Europe, Russia will follow.
How can you say it’s “not real”?? Tell this to Ukrainians getting hundreds of missiles shot at them.
Do you really believe it’s all a hoax and Russia is not invading/bombing/attacking the Ukraine?
Of course it's happening. I am not paranoid. But, the leaders win billions for themselves pushing people to fight. It's not a real intention of the Russian people but of the corrupt Polit-buro that is paid by Lockheed et al. I cannot say it more boldly.
Good, because I was seriously considering returning to NZ out of fear of being drafted into a war.
The suspension doesn't change whether you get drafted or not, it just reduces peacetime bureaucracy at the expense of making a future draft more chaotic if it does happen.
The usual suspect would first need to cross Poland, not to mention finishing what they started in Ukraine.
I'll be scrolling HN from the trenches long before any army reaches Berlin.
> The usual suspect would first need to cross Poland, not to mention finishing what they started in Ukraine.
It doesn't look like they can break Ukraine anytime soon. And each month Ukraine bites back pushing the prospect of full-scale war with NATO (or what is left of it) even further.
Yes. Democratic collapse is the more real danger than direct Russian invasion of the EU countries.
Poland are in Nato, I'd expect europe wide deployment on an invasion. Itll definitely be volunteer forces at first, but I wouldn't hold my breath on conscripted forces never being deployed if it goes into a quagmire like ukraine.
If NATO still exists by then.
If Poland is attacked then Germany will deploy troops there. Whether NATO exists or not.
Which troops?
NATO would have to collapse before the midterms or the current POTUS' natural death - whichever came first.
I find that unlikely.
Really? I did expect nothing would happen. I though it was just a very old rule that was not enforced. Low low chance they could or would have enforced that.
Hah, based on the title I assumed it was exactly the opposite - that it was the automatic approval that had been suspended
The law is still there though and thus its application can be resumed at any time without need of parliament approval.
The whole handling of it is utterly incompetent. To reinstate a law and then have it informally and temporarily deactivated.
https://youtu.be/dZUu6OkTHlY
Perhaps a cautionary move for potential fallout from the Hungarian election?
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The medical examination doesn’t say much. Your take on it that they’re perverts wanting to look at genitals tells more than you think
If it's such a non issue, why are they doing it? Ask a boy if he wants to show his genitals to the commission, we all know what will be the answer.
Isn't this just a standard part of a physical exam?
I do not know if this has changed during the recent decades, but indeed in the past it was standard in all countries for the military fitness physical exam to be done nude (for males).
Moreover, it was completely pointless to be shy about this, because if you were conscripted, the norm was to have common showers, so anyone could have a good look at you for much more than the few seconds of the physical exam.
Then why girls don't have to show their genitals during medical exam?
EDIT. I'm serious. Few girls are summoned (e.g. medical related education). They don't have to show their genitals.
Who is thee creepy pervert now?
wtf, is this a joke?
A doc holding your balls and asking you to cough checks for an inguinal hernia, where your intestine pushes through the inguinal canal. This canal is much wider in men, hence it being much more common in men.
I am in no position to judge the procedure on a medical basis but know that it is (or was) near universal for potential recruits and has become a bit of a meme.
Your strong reaction to this procedure is something for you to dwell on.
That's, like, your obsession, not their's.
I don't care. Until being 18 years old I had had no opinion or even an idea that there exist a commission waiting to see my genitals. It's when you refuse then they become obsessed to enforce and conduct the examination.
Because there is no such commission? Are you sure, you went through a mustering physical? There is no commission waiting to see your wiener. There is an MD to examine you. The MD writes a report that is attached to your file.
What the commission might get serious with is enforcing the mustering process, regardless if it is about the medical exam or the aptitude tests.
Yes there is, it's literally military commission with military medical board. Personal experience and the quality of "medical proffessionals" in it may vary from country to country.
It used to be that way, and probably will be that way again. I know of a few of people who got an early testicular cancer diagnosis that way. So it seems that there is a medical use for it.
Military medical exam is not for medical diagnosis! They don't care, they're there to enforce. It's worth the same as a dude pissing into urinal next to you and saying "nice balls mate". For official medical diagnosis you have to go through the procedures within healthcare system in your country.
True, but how many 18 year olds do you know that will just randomly get their balls checked?
Might be a different situation in other countries but in my country (Poland) showing your wiener to military guys will certainly not have any positive or constructive medical outcome. It's just a primitive domination and compliance ritual where they "verify your gender".
I had to undress back then.
But anyway:
"The Clash - The Call Up (Official Video)"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ScaGjwkg2Y
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whats the deal here with the genitals? normal part of life, and having someone check if theres nothing weird/curious in a full body health check doesn't sound unreasonable. was okay for me too. and girls do get their private parts inspected deeper every year at the female health docs than once in a lifetime ball touching from some drafter, different level, just accept it
Don't be ridiculous. You really don't see a difference between someone choosing to see a doctor for their own benefit and the state forcing someone to be subjected to an examination for the state's benefit?
Nobody should accept gender discrimination or being touched without consent.
at this point sensible/reasonable tradeoffs should be reintroduced again. absolutist stances like that, no matter how well intended, are bullshit. its simply not black and white, you just happen to draw a line on the extreme sensitivity side compared to others. its okay, but a you problem.
Even touch without consent is explicitly a thing that will be accepted by any sane human. example: someone grabbing your shoulders last second to pull you back from a street crossing before a car hits you that you didn't see coming by yourself. There are even laws in some countries when you do NOT help in acute situations you can go to jail. And at the end it IS touch, without consent.
I just don't get why genitals are such a big deal to begin with. but also baltic sea here, people go naked to beaches or in saunas without blinking since ever.
How far do you take that? One medical condition that has been considered militarily relevant is flat feet. If the state can draft people, can they make you show them your feet? If you can't avoid the draft but can avoid the medical exam, isn't that a way of avoiding the draft?
> can they make you show them your feet?
I see a subtle difference between being barefoot and showing cock and balls to half dozen strangers. I know of at least one American president who avoided being drafted because of his "feet situation".
Isn't that just part of a physical exam in general? I remember the first physical exam I had in collage we all had to do that.
eh, this stirs memories of the similar exam in Italy (abolished ~20 years ago).
The doctor would also grab your testicles and ask to cough, to diagnose varicocele. I wonder how many young men have undiagnosed issues since the military exam was abolished.
How did Germany treat veterans of the previous major war by the way?
The previous major war was in Afghanistan with 150,000 German soldiers: https://www.dw.com/en/germany-honors-soldiers-who-fought-in-...
This was pretty much a big media nothingburger.
The rule isn't new, it existed for decades all the way back to the beginnings of the Cold War. Nobody cared back then (neither the people nor the army), nobody should care now (there are no sanctions). I guess some journalist was actually reading through the consciption law (as probably the only person on the planet), stumbled over that passage and turned it into an elephant.
The rule was literally changed in January. No, it didn't exist all the way back to the beginnings of the cold war!
https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/innenpolitik/wehrdienst-aus...
"Die Regelung habe bereits in den Zeiten des Kalten Krieges gegolten "und hatte keine praktische Relevanz", teilte das Ministerium mit. Sie sei auch nicht sanktioniert. Im Gegensatz zur alten Fassung gilt die Genehmigungspflicht nun auch außerhalb des Spannungs- und Verteidigungsfalls."
The rule existed, but apparently they broadened the scope. In any case, even if the rule is ignored nothing happens - so the question is of course why that rule exists in the first place of course.
When there's a rule with a condition that meant the rule hasn't applied for decades, and then the condition is removed so that the rule always applies, it's no longer the same rule.
Rules that are not enforced are bad as they create space for arbitrariness and corruption. It was a mistake by gov't, opposition & media that this wasn't spotted at the time the law was revised.
The most surprising thing is that the ministry didn't figure this out itself. You'd expect the people drafting laws to consider such things. Thus, it's an indicator of ministerial sloppiness. Not a nothingburger.
It may not be sloppiness. Consider the official statement as shared in this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=47789061. The ministry of defense will issue an 'exception' that generally applies. Presumably, revoking this exception is straightforward and much easier than passing a new law.
If it wasn't sloppiness they would have issued the directive on January 1.
> The most surprising thing is that the ministry didn't figure this out itself. Thus, it's an indicator of ministerial sloppiness.
This I agree with. Might have to do with law changes requiring a two-thirds-majority in parliament though. They could have communicated earlier and better though.
The way laws work there is that each law either enumerates the penalties itself or the law of penalties enumerates them. So for each law you only have to check two places to know what the penalties are.
In this case, there are none.