English is my second language, but all the examples in TFA* seem... mild. I wonder if they were filtered for the purposes of the article, or profanity just became more widespread in the past 50 years.
Swearing was taken as more severe back then. The F word was legitimately nuclear in polite company in the 1960s. But these things evolve. In Puritan times, “damn” would have gotten you two days in the stocks but “shit” and “fuck” we’re just uncouth.
Today it’s identity slurs that are untouchable, which is an improvement because a lot of those words are legitimately hurtful and really shouldn’t be used casually.
And there are languages like Korean and Japanese where there are no profane words at our level of severity but there are ways of saying things that will end your career, e.g. certain second person pronouns and verb inflections that no one uses these days but are still recognized as viscous attacks.
The eufemism treadmill works bot ways. Eufemisms loose their politeness. Swearwords loose their strength (to be replaced by new ones). Language changes. I don't think people are inherently more rude and disrespectful.
"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise." - Socrates
>Armstrong, Aldrin and Collins cursed fewer than 15 times during their moon-landing mission, based on NASA transcripts. Most of that came from command-module pilot Collins. Aldrin cursed just once and Armstrong didn’t at all.
From what I've read about Armstrong, absolutely no surprise there.
Growing up I never cursed. As an older teen and young adult I started to around my friends but never in the home around my family. Then I entered the military and very quickly cursing became deeply ingrained in my speech. To the point it was difficult to speak a entire sentence without a curse word. Towards the end I embraced religion heavily and made it a point to cut out cursing entirely. Nowadays I do not curse at all nor do I even think about doing so, even the muscle memory is completely gone from my speech.
As someone now who does not curse whatsoever under any circumstance, hearing those around me curse, it literally hurts my ears. I can pick those words out of a crowd like they're being spoken into a speakerphone. Especially being around military people still who curse every few words and just about every single sentence has an F word throw in, it's very uncomfortable.
You've removed them from your speech but I worry you've still given them some special power over you in your mind with that sensitivity. It would be freeing to treat them like any other word and not react to them so strongly for you, I think.
Profanity doesn't have power over a person. They have a lack of eloquence and a laziness in language. It demonstrates indiscipline and thoughtlessness. And it conjures the wrong kinds of images in the head. Separating yourself from it is a sign of sophistication. And you want to be more sophisticated over time. And you want to be around sophisticated people as well.
> Then I entered the military and very quickly cursing became deeply ingrained in my speech
Same. Never cursed before military. But military stress combined with surrounding fellows cursing made it difficult to filter it out from my own language.
They're just words. If you want to give those words so much power over you, that's your own problem to deal with. What right do you have to demand the rest of society cater to your particular hangups?
When I hear curse words, they elicit exactly the same emotional response as any other word. There's nothing magical or inherently special about them, it's all in your own psychology.
>Dr. Larry Poland, president of the non-denominational Miami Bible College, contacted NASA and President Richard Nixon to complain about the profuse profanity from the Apollo 10 crew, demanding they apologize for their behavior.
despite my best efforts, i have never been able to understand why or how swear words are inherently offensive. it just does not click with me. a request like this just seems absolutely ridiculous (especially given the context the offending words were said).
IF YOU SPENT A LOT OF TIME ON THE EARLY INTERNET MAYBE THIS WILL HELP YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT THOSE WHO DISLIKE SWEARING EXPERIENCE WHEN THEY HEAR PROFANITY
Now, why they react that way is a lot more complicated... Much like why I and many others find the above almost physically painful. My own personal take is that avoiding swearing in public, like avoiding all caps in the Internet, is a matter of courtesy and respect for others. And while I find the discussion of why interesting, ultimately I believe that respect for oneself and others (something I have watched diminish for decades) is a good thing, and ought to be practiced. It's... being a good citizen and fellow human being, I guess.
You also said, it "just seems absolutely ridiculous".
There are at least two elements to the answer. One is that people are bothered by it the same way they are by anything painful, disgusting, or damaging. I think that part is clear and not in the least "ridiculous", and is what I was trying to address.
The other gets deeper into thought, language, and human interaction than I can address via a couple spare moments and a phone screen.
The linguistics of swearwords are interesting I think. They need to be taboo or they don't work. A certain amount of offensiveness is needed for their function.
I think swearwords are very useful. Both when used of emphasis, comedy or (their original use) venting frustation or pain.
And they have secondary uses as well. When someone swears a lot in inappropriate situations you can tell they are generally inconsiderate persons. And when somebody gets very upset by swearwords you know they are probably overly religious. For both things it's nice the be forewarned ;-P
The offensiveness of many comes from the original intention of the word, which was generally some sort of a condemnation of another person (or perhaps sometimes some other taboo). To repeat it is to repeat some of that original intent, at least at times... But I think now a simple "fuck" has all but lost that meaning, and I would say it's not really inherently offensive. And well placed, sparingly used, it can be a good way to extend your range of emotional expression. Well, as long as it's not at cost of everything else.
If you ever get a chance to talk to a linguist, ask about pejoration, melioration, and the euphemism treadmill. It really is interesting how we convey culture through not only what we say, but what we don't say. In especially elite circles, the rate that words go in and out of fashion can be astounding, and using even a newly pejorated word can get someone instantly and permanently rejected by the group.
They're not inherently offensive. They're vulgar, but that isn't the same thing as offensive. Vulgarity is nothing more than a classist concept anyway. This is just another case of religious extremists making everything in this world worse for everyone else.
A significant chunk of the population thinks they'll get tortured for eternity if they do it too much, and finds it distressing to be exposed to it as a result.
perhaps obviously, i am not and never have been religious. your comment brings up a point that i have never really thought about: why is it mostly religious people that are against swearing?
does the bible or any religious text specifically call out swearing (beyond taking their gods name in vain, which i can understand avoiding if you are religious)?
Many religious texts have broader restrictions on word usage than just their deity's name in vain. Usually those are adjacent to other aspects of the religion. I am not aware of any that would forbid what we would commonly call swear words.
There's a number of verses in the New Testament which arguably instruct people not to swear. Colossians 3:8 is probably most on point, although as with all cross-cultural comparisons of foul language, it's hard to know exactly what a Greek speaker 2000 years ago would have understood αἰσχρολογία to mean in the context of modern English.
It's the same motivation as racists: they need some way to feel superior to the people that they despise. If the entire world stopped swearing today, these people would just find something else to use in their supremacist proxy wars.
Using profanity indicates a weak vocabulary. A lack of discipline. A degree of unrefinement unbecoming of astronauts representing the "best" of humanity and their country.
Depending on the type of profanity it can divide societies by reinforcing social schisms/prejudices. Such words typically cluster around areas of cultural discomfort such as religion, sex, and hygiene, causing polarizing emotional reactions. It's biological as well as cultural.
Seems like the "best and bravest humanity has to offer" can probably represent a little better than that for one of the most significant feats of history.
If you think astronauts are supposed to be "the best of humanity" then you are going to be dissapointed. Astronauts are chosen because they can withstand high G forces and keep cool under pressure. It is very similar to how race car drivers are chosen. No one believes formula 1 drivers are "the best of humanity". And I wouldn't care if astronaut cursed anymore than if a formula 1 driver did.
That’s absolutely not true. Watch any F1 race and within the first few minutes you will hear a censored drivers radio. IIRC F1 tried to penalize drivers who swore too much on the radio and faced massive backlash from the drivers
> Using profanity indicates a weak vocabulary. A lack of discipline. A degree of unrefinement unbecoming
Says you. I think not swearing obviously indicates a weaker vocabulary since there's a lot of things you can't or won't say.
Of course, swear words can be offensive if you're their target, and I don't really enjoy that side. But they are _very_ effective in communicating frustration, anger, surprise. I think using them brings a bit of spice to life and a well placed "Fuck!" can feel extremely cathartic and... dare I say... pleasant.
Sorry, using Sacré Quebecois or Mexican albures is a total art form which requires extensive knowledge and creativity. Nothing further from “a weak vocabulary”.
> Using profanity indicates a weak vocabulary. A lack of discipline.
Lack of discipline, maybe. Though that is subjective.
Weak vocabulary, no, that is objectively not true unless someone is repeatedly using a small number of profanities (i.e. someone who uses the F/C bombs and the N & R words, for instance). Studies of online communications have shown the people who use a range of profanity also have a wider vocabulary more generally, wider on average even than those who were not seen to use profanities at all.
Of course this still has some subjective judgement involved: the studies had to define what was considered profane, and may have missed many words only considered bad in a minority of places. I'm not sure what the studies did, if anything, to account for people speaking the target language as a second that they are not fluent in. These could be important factors in correctly defining the “doesn't use them” set.
> It's biological as well as cultural.
Only because there is a biological component to the reaction to the words, which is trained by culture. This could be a programmed disgust reaction, an amused one (a small rush of relevant endorphins), or a fear reaction (where the word is a slur that is often followed by further problems like the threat of physical violence). The closest we come to a truly biological reaction might be words associated with excreta and so forth, the things they can describe carrying a biological risk, but even that is culturally informed (you aren't born knowing that shit means a form of feculence, or that feculence is considered a more polite way to describe something dirty to the point of being unsafe).
i'll bet you $1000 my vocab is wider, deeper, and more sophisticated than yours despite my profuse use of profanity. interested? happily able to provide various standardized tests (SAT/GRE/LSAT/etc.) and/or your preferred method (wordle/crossword/etc.).
That's just regurgitating the same Puritannical bullshit that's been infecting American society for the past hundred years or so.
Humans curse sometimes. That's what happens to real people in the real world. Astronauts are not some kind of pure, unspoiled demigods. They're regular-ass humans who say things like shit and fuck. Just like approximately everyone else does.
I'd rather the best and brightest among us admit that they're real people just like everyone else than put on a show to protect the delicate sensibilities of a very small number of people who clutch pearls and scream when someone nearby says a "bad word".
Astronauts are people. They have genitals, they walk around nude sometimes. They shit, piss, and fuck just like you and me. You want to deify and make them into false idols for some reason. That is a fundamentally bad and wrong thing to do, and you can directly quote many/most religions on that one.
wow - people are lame. I want to hear their authentic reaction to being 240,000 miles from Earth... not what the pastor down the street thinks they should say.
Unless they mean another "f word", the f word was used in Apollo 10. It's just that the transcripts change it to "freaking":
> Oh, shit' What they did, they made it a two - Ain't
this smart' Ain't that a smart freaking sack.
As the great and only Shrek said "better out than in", if someone is offended by you cursing the fuck out of your lungs, just curse more and scare them out of your sight.
Everyone in this thread is bashing on religious causes but cursing was one of the very few obvious social class signifiers in 20th century America, which was part of why it was so harped on by parents and schoolteachers of that era.
It's funny as a parent, because I'm expected to tell my son that he shouldn't curse even though his mom and I do. And all of our friends. And coworkers. And my boss. And his boss. And our CEO. And the fucking president.
I think the underlying needle this is trying to thread is teaching kids to know their audience and adjust their register for it (which is a much broader skill than just whether or not to curse), but I agree that the fucking president ;) doing it gives kids ammo to argue against the rule. Idk if that's a good or a bad thing, maybe just neutral.
What is ridiculous is how funny it is when your three year old stubs his toe on the coffee table and yells "oh for fucks sake!", but you have to hide all that amusement.
Good job expressing yourself, little man. It was accurate and concise, but we're going to try not to say that.
English is my second language, but all the examples in TFA* seem... mild. I wonder if they were filtered for the purposes of the article, or profanity just became more widespread in the past 50 years.
* = :)
Swearing was taken as more severe back then. The F word was legitimately nuclear in polite company in the 1960s. But these things evolve. In Puritan times, “damn” would have gotten you two days in the stocks but “shit” and “fuck” we’re just uncouth.
Today it’s identity slurs that are untouchable, which is an improvement because a lot of those words are legitimately hurtful and really shouldn’t be used casually.
And there are languages like Korean and Japanese where there are no profane words at our level of severity but there are ways of saying things that will end your career, e.g. certain second person pronouns and verb inflections that no one uses these days but are still recognized as viscous attacks.
Yes, as any old person will tell you, everyone is rude and disrespectful these days (by comparison).
The eufemism treadmill works bot ways. Eufemisms loose their politeness. Swearwords loose their strength (to be replaced by new ones). Language changes. I don't think people are inherently more rude and disrespectful.
"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise." - Socrates
>Armstrong, Aldrin and Collins cursed fewer than 15 times during their moon-landing mission, based on NASA transcripts. Most of that came from command-module pilot Collins. Aldrin cursed just once and Armstrong didn’t at all.
From what I've read about Armstrong, absolutely no surprise there.
Yeah he was apparently a great guy.
Growing up I never cursed. As an older teen and young adult I started to around my friends but never in the home around my family. Then I entered the military and very quickly cursing became deeply ingrained in my speech. To the point it was difficult to speak a entire sentence without a curse word. Towards the end I embraced religion heavily and made it a point to cut out cursing entirely. Nowadays I do not curse at all nor do I even think about doing so, even the muscle memory is completely gone from my speech.
As someone now who does not curse whatsoever under any circumstance, hearing those around me curse, it literally hurts my ears. I can pick those words out of a crowd like they're being spoken into a speakerphone. Especially being around military people still who curse every few words and just about every single sentence has an F word throw in, it's very uncomfortable.
You've removed them from your speech but I worry you've still given them some special power over you in your mind with that sensitivity. It would be freeing to treat them like any other word and not react to them so strongly for you, I think.
Profanity doesn't have power over a person. They have a lack of eloquence and a laziness in language. It demonstrates indiscipline and thoughtlessness. And it conjures the wrong kinds of images in the head. Separating yourself from it is a sign of sophistication. And you want to be more sophisticated over time. And you want to be around sophisticated people as well.
> Then I entered the military and very quickly cursing became deeply ingrained in my speech
Same. Never cursed before military. But military stress combined with surrounding fellows cursing made it difficult to filter it out from my own language.
They're just words. If you want to give those words so much power over you, that's your own problem to deal with. What right do you have to demand the rest of society cater to your particular hangups?
When I hear curse words, they elicit exactly the same emotional response as any other word. There's nothing magical or inherently special about them, it's all in your own psychology.
Do you think the same about the n-word?
Yes, don't be such a nagger
>Dr. Larry Poland, president of the non-denominational Miami Bible College, contacted NASA and President Richard Nixon to complain about the profuse profanity from the Apollo 10 crew, demanding they apologize for their behavior.
despite my best efforts, i have never been able to understand why or how swear words are inherently offensive. it just does not click with me. a request like this just seems absolutely ridiculous (especially given the context the offending words were said).
IF YOU SPENT A LOT OF TIME ON THE EARLY INTERNET MAYBE THIS WILL HELP YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT THOSE WHO DISLIKE SWEARING EXPERIENCE WHEN THEY HEAR PROFANITY
Now, why they react that way is a lot more complicated... Much like why I and many others find the above almost physically painful. My own personal take is that avoiding swearing in public, like avoiding all caps in the Internet, is a matter of courtesy and respect for others. And while I find the discussion of why interesting, ultimately I believe that respect for oneself and others (something I have watched diminish for decades) is a good thing, and ought to be practiced. It's... being a good citizen and fellow human being, I guess.
>Now, why they react that way is a lot more complicated...
my comment is entirely about not understanding the why.
You also said, it "just seems absolutely ridiculous".
There are at least two elements to the answer. One is that people are bothered by it the same way they are by anything painful, disgusting, or damaging. I think that part is clear and not in the least "ridiculous", and is what I was trying to address.
The other gets deeper into thought, language, and human interaction than I can address via a couple spare moments and a phone screen.
I simply choose not to be upset by it. Why give someone else that power?
To answer literally - and cryptically - how did Skinner get the rats to enter the boxes in the first place?
To answer stoically, "You have power over your mind - not outside events. Realize this and you will find strength." - Marcus Aurelius
CAPS LOCK IS CRUISE CONTROL FOR COOL
Bless you
The linguistics of swearwords are interesting I think. They need to be taboo or they don't work. A certain amount of offensiveness is needed for their function.
I think swearwords are very useful. Both when used of emphasis, comedy or (their original use) venting frustation or pain.
And they have secondary uses as well. When someone swears a lot in inappropriate situations you can tell they are generally inconsiderate persons. And when somebody gets very upset by swearwords you know they are probably overly religious. For both things it's nice the be forewarned ;-P
The offensiveness of many comes from the original intention of the word, which was generally some sort of a condemnation of another person (or perhaps sometimes some other taboo). To repeat it is to repeat some of that original intent, at least at times... But I think now a simple "fuck" has all but lost that meaning, and I would say it's not really inherently offensive. And well placed, sparingly used, it can be a good way to extend your range of emotional expression. Well, as long as it's not at cost of everything else.
If you ever get a chance to talk to a linguist, ask about pejoration, melioration, and the euphemism treadmill. It really is interesting how we convey culture through not only what we say, but what we don't say. In especially elite circles, the rate that words go in and out of fashion can be astounding, and using even a newly pejorated word can get someone instantly and permanently rejected by the group.
They're not inherently offensive. They're vulgar, but that isn't the same thing as offensive. Vulgarity is nothing more than a classist concept anyway. This is just another case of religious extremists making everything in this world worse for everyone else.
A significant chunk of the population thinks they'll get tortured for eternity if they do it too much, and finds it distressing to be exposed to it as a result.
perhaps obviously, i am not and never have been religious. your comment brings up a point that i have never really thought about: why is it mostly religious people that are against swearing?
does the bible or any religious text specifically call out swearing (beyond taking their gods name in vain, which i can understand avoiding if you are religious)?
Many religious texts have broader restrictions on word usage than just their deity's name in vain. Usually those are adjacent to other aspects of the religion. I am not aware of any that would forbid what we would commonly call swear words.
There's a number of verses in the New Testament which arguably instruct people not to swear. Colossians 3:8 is probably most on point, although as with all cross-cultural comparisons of foul language, it's hard to know exactly what a Greek speaker 2000 years ago would have understood αἰσχρολογία to mean in the context of modern English.
It's the same motivation as racists: they need some way to feel superior to the people that they despise. If the entire world stopped swearing today, these people would just find something else to use in their supremacist proxy wars.
[dead]
Using profanity indicates a weak vocabulary. A lack of discipline. A degree of unrefinement unbecoming of astronauts representing the "best" of humanity and their country.
Depending on the type of profanity it can divide societies by reinforcing social schisms/prejudices. Such words typically cluster around areas of cultural discomfort such as religion, sex, and hygiene, causing polarizing emotional reactions. It's biological as well as cultural.
Seems like the "best and bravest humanity has to offer" can probably represent a little better than that for one of the most significant feats of history.
If you think astronauts are supposed to be "the best of humanity" then you are going to be dissapointed. Astronauts are chosen because they can withstand high G forces and keep cool under pressure. It is very similar to how race car drivers are chosen. No one believes formula 1 drivers are "the best of humanity". And I wouldn't care if astronaut cursed anymore than if a formula 1 driver did.
I'd argue they're precisely the best humannity has to offer for that use case. And even car racers avoid swearing in public.
> And even car racers avoid swearing in public.
That’s absolutely not true. Watch any F1 race and within the first few minutes you will hear a censored drivers radio. IIRC F1 tried to penalize drivers who swore too much on the radio and faced massive backlash from the drivers
> Using profanity indicates a weak vocabulary. A lack of discipline. A degree of unrefinement unbecoming
Says you. I think not swearing obviously indicates a weaker vocabulary since there's a lot of things you can't or won't say.
Of course, swear words can be offensive if you're their target, and I don't really enjoy that side. But they are _very_ effective in communicating frustration, anger, surprise. I think using them brings a bit of spice to life and a well placed "Fuck!" can feel extremely cathartic and... dare I say... pleasant.
Sorry, using Sacré Quebecois or Mexican albures is a total art form which requires extensive knowledge and creativity. Nothing further from “a weak vocabulary”.
>Using profanity indicates a weak vocabulary. A lack of discipline.
this is just made up, though. not a lick of scientific backing to it.
Where's your scientific backing that it's not made up?
the keywords you want to put into google are "burden of proof".
[dead]
> Using profanity indicates a weak vocabulary. A lack of discipline.
Lack of discipline, maybe. Though that is subjective.
Weak vocabulary, no, that is objectively not true unless someone is repeatedly using a small number of profanities (i.e. someone who uses the F/C bombs and the N & R words, for instance). Studies of online communications have shown the people who use a range of profanity also have a wider vocabulary more generally, wider on average even than those who were not seen to use profanities at all.
Of course this still has some subjective judgement involved: the studies had to define what was considered profane, and may have missed many words only considered bad in a minority of places. I'm not sure what the studies did, if anything, to account for people speaking the target language as a second that they are not fluent in. These could be important factors in correctly defining the “doesn't use them” set.
> It's biological as well as cultural.
Only because there is a biological component to the reaction to the words, which is trained by culture. This could be a programmed disgust reaction, an amused one (a small rush of relevant endorphins), or a fear reaction (where the word is a slur that is often followed by further problems like the threat of physical violence). The closest we come to a truly biological reaction might be words associated with excreta and so forth, the things they can describe carrying a biological risk, but even that is culturally informed (you aren't born knowing that shit means a form of feculence, or that feculence is considered a more polite way to describe something dirty to the point of being unsafe).
> Using profanity indicates a weak vocabulary.
What a bizarre leap of logic.
I wonder what disparaging others for using profanity indicates.
> Using profanity indicates a weak vocabulary
i'll bet you $1000 my vocab is wider, deeper, and more sophisticated than yours despite my profuse use of profanity. interested? happily able to provide various standardized tests (SAT/GRE/LSAT/etc.) and/or your preferred method (wordle/crossword/etc.).
That's just regurgitating the same Puritannical bullshit that's been infecting American society for the past hundred years or so.
Humans curse sometimes. That's what happens to real people in the real world. Astronauts are not some kind of pure, unspoiled demigods. They're regular-ass humans who say things like shit and fuck. Just like approximately everyone else does.
I'd rather the best and brightest among us admit that they're real people just like everyone else than put on a show to protect the delicate sensibilities of a very small number of people who clutch pearls and scream when someone nearby says a "bad word".
Astronauts are people. They have genitals, they walk around nude sometimes. They shit, piss, and fuck just like you and me. You want to deify and make them into false idols for some reason. That is a fundamentally bad and wrong thing to do, and you can directly quote many/most religions on that one.
I would't be able to stay polite if I were walking on the f-ing moon.
wow - people are lame. I want to hear their authentic reaction to being 240,000 miles from Earth... not what the pastor down the street thinks they should say.
Unless they mean another "f word", the f word was used in Apollo 10. It's just that the transcripts change it to "freaking": > Oh, shit' What they did, they made it a two - Ain't this smart' Ain't that a smart freaking sack.
( https://apollojournals.org/afj/ap10fj/as10-day2-pt9.html )
It can be found in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQVEsfa15SY
Farisa has entered the forest.
As the great and only Shrek said "better out than in", if someone is offended by you cursing the fuck out of your lungs, just curse more and scare them out of your sight.
“That’s one small step for man, one… oh, fuck.”
I couldn't help but think of this when I read your comment: https://theonion.com/july-21-1969-1819587599/
"Neil Armstrong on the surface of the fucking moon."
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Everyone in this thread is bashing on religious causes but cursing was one of the very few obvious social class signifiers in 20th century America, which was part of why it was so harped on by parents and schoolteachers of that era.
It's funny as a parent, because I'm expected to tell my son that he shouldn't curse even though his mom and I do. And all of our friends. And coworkers. And my boss. And his boss. And our CEO. And the fucking president.
It's ridiculous.
I think the underlying needle this is trying to thread is teaching kids to know their audience and adjust their register for it (which is a much broader skill than just whether or not to curse), but I agree that the fucking president ;) doing it gives kids ammo to argue against the rule. Idk if that's a good or a bad thing, maybe just neutral.
It's ridiculous now. It might have not been when we were kids, just that our parents and grandparents weren't able to make the lesson stick.
What is ridiculous is how funny it is when your three year old stubs his toe on the coffee table and yells "oh for fucks sake!", but you have to hide all that amusement.
Good job expressing yourself, little man. It was accurate and concise, but we're going to try not to say that.
>his mom and I do. And all of our friends. And coworkers. And my boss. And his boss. And our CEO. And the fucking president.
>I'm expected
So, who's doing the expecting?
Only half joking: do him a favor and teach him to avoid the passive voice like that.
Can you give an example of a country where this is the case? (I suspect there are other taboos there, but am genuinely unsure.)
your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries