Seems like the anti-clickbait title editing removed the “hundreds of”? This confused me because I thought “oh, they’ve stripped down a Docker image to only 1 megabyte, and then a full game engine adds 34MB more” (I missed the WASM on the first read)
Meanwhile: Error - The following features required to run Godot projects on the Web are missing: WebGL2 - Check web browser configuration and hardware support
This is on Chrome 148.0.7778.96 (Official Build) (64-bit) on Fedora 44, 14900K, 4090 RTX, 128GB RAM
35MB WASM which relies on browser, which relies on drivers and OS, AND it doesn't work as advertised. I get the point, but point was mistaken.
Shameless plug but if you like small file size overheads, our browser based game engine Construct[1] exports an empty web project with about 300 KB overhead for a fully-featured engine. We achieve this by going all-in on the web platform so we don't have to ship a heavyweight runtime with it, and using a modular approach where only the components you use get exported.
That is a strange title / comparison. Docker images (even slimmed down) have an OS (most likely a Linux distribution), some libs and the runtime needed for a programming language. On it's own a "game engine + WASM binary" is not comparable.
> "Docker images (even slimmed down) have an OS (most likely a Linux distribution)"
Not necessarily. Docker images can be based from the "scratch" container, and may contain only a single binary. With static compilation, the libraries can be included in the binary.
The O/S is provided by the container-host (which is usually a linux VM).
Unity compiles down to 3MB wasm. Though they don't need to ship the dotnet runtime, they use IL2CPP, a proprietary thing that translates dotnet code into C++. Then they run Emscripten on it.
Also I think Godot's WASM outputs used to be 2-3x smaller in Godot 3 (though the C# one was bigger).
You can ship a JS game in kilobytes, although atop 30 million lines of Chromium that's cheating of course :) still good fun.
I've been playing with Golang and WASM lately; hands-on WASM was new to me.
I found that many dependencies in the ecosystem (especially older ones) do not support GOARCH=wasm nor GOOS=js / GOOS=wasip1. I've had to fork and add support and then do go.mod replace directives. It can get messy.
Golang build tags make it awesome to have different implementations for different systems.
In the browser, it's all single threaded, so goroutines starve each other. I had to put in "breaths" for interactivity.
There's no local filesystem, so you have to figure out other solutions. Some dependencies use the filesystem as an implementation detail or try to shell out. The program will build, but will error at runtime.
That said, it is pretty sweet when it works. You can make WASM games with ebitengine [1] and it emits instructions for a WebGPU renderer; very efficient and many interactivity concerns are handled for you. The NTCharts demo page [2] combines Zig (Ghostty), WASM+Typescript+GLSL (Ghostty Web), and Golang (booba/ntcharts). The WASM size for the demos there is ~5MB each.
My goal is to make tools for terminal remoting and simplify bringing TUIs to the browser.
[1] https://ebitengine.org
Docker can be small too. In this example I was able to compile a full server (rust binary) and package it in a docker (scratch image base) and the total was < 5MB.
> Same as ARM nodes a few years ago: cheaper, denser, widely available – still not the default choice.
Because ARM nodes save you a bit of money (they're cheaper but a bit slower, maybe you end up saving 20-30%) but the move isn't trivial for many tech stacks. When you try it you find you have some Python dependency with a C bit that doesn't have an arm wheel, or your browser automation can't run Chrome on those nodes (there isn't a linux/arm64 build of it). If you're using Go you can cross-compile, although it will likely fail without explicitly disabling cgo, and do you know what the consequences of that are?
Basically it very often ended up being more trouble than it was worth.
I recently ported an old brickout clone I made to Sokol (a C header-based game library). The whole executable is 500kb (macos), surely could be smaller with eg symbols stripped, and it has a whole 3d engine (not that i'm using much more than one custom shader to blit the screen, but it is using 3d engine infrastructure nonetheless). I was impressed that in this day and age such efficiency is still fashionable in some corners. The whole game is about 2mb zipped. Are shameless plugs allowed? If you're curious have a peek! github.com/chrishulbert/brickwarrior
So the engine is 35MB, but what does it run in? By itself it's a binary blob that doesn't do anything.
Chrome seems to be ~404MB installed on here; that is conspicuously missing from the comparisons here to Docker containers which do account for more or less the complete runtime.
10MB for the Google Homepage! 44MB for Facebook Homepage! I have not been paying attention to website bloat. Wow, and people were annoyed when a site had to download a whole JQuery library for a single function.
It's more or less an abomination. Dropping the frameworks and js jazz you could have most of the features of either of these sites served in the kb range. It would save millions of dollars in electricity, billions in infrastructure, and be more secure.
Yes, it's absolutely the frameworks. That each weigh <100KB. Definitely frameworks :D
Edit:
I don't even know where you lot get these numbers from nowadays, smh.
Just checked, in Slovakia, google.com is 1MB (compressed) total with cache disabled. 400kib of those is my own extension that I installed which is counted among the 'loaded scripts'. Loads in 400ms, blink of an eye.
Framework rants are completely detached from reality, as always.
Sure but in WASM, the browser's environment is taking responsibility for many OS concerns (graphics, IO, 3D, hardware). In a Docker image, all that logic needs to be bundled in libraries as you'll only get to "reuse" the hosts' kernel.
A 'fairer' comparison would be a optimized and compiled binary that dynamically links to the OS versus a WASM product (would be kilobytes-megabytes).
Or having the WASM app in a Chromium browser in Docker (would be gigabytes).
WASM sounds great in theory but it's so much pain in practice. Once as a presentation demo I made it run on ESP32 but in the process of digging deep into runtimes and WASM spec, I wanted to disclose pros vs cons and it killed my presentation.
I realize wasm wasn't designed for embedded but it made me open my eyes to it's intricacies like minimum memory allocation, why not native 1 byte variables?
Seems like the anti-clickbait title editing removed the “hundreds of”? This confused me because I thought “oh, they’ve stripped down a Docker image to only 1 megabyte, and then a full game engine adds 34MB more” (I missed the WASM on the first read)
Runs in any browser, zero install.
Meanwhile: Error - The following features required to run Godot projects on the Web are missing: WebGL2 - Check web browser configuration and hardware support
This is on Chrome 148.0.7778.96 (Official Build) (64-bit) on Fedora 44, 14900K, 4090 RTX, 128GB RAM
35MB WASM which relies on browser, which relies on drivers and OS, AND it doesn't work as advertised. I get the point, but point was mistaken.
Shameless plug but if you like small file size overheads, our browser based game engine Construct[1] exports an empty web project with about 300 KB overhead for a fully-featured engine. We achieve this by going all-in on the web platform so we don't have to ship a heavyweight runtime with it, and using a modular approach where only the components you use get exported.
[1] https://www.construct.net
FYI “open 3d city” link gives an error about exceeding the free edition size.
That is a strange title / comparison. Docker images (even slimmed down) have an OS (most likely a Linux distribution), some libs and the runtime needed for a programming language. On it's own a "game engine + WASM binary" is not comparable.
The O/S is provided by the container-host (which is usually a linux VM).
This doc describes building an image from "scratch": https://docs.docker.com/build/building/base-images/#create-a...
Maybe it's a good reminder to _not_ bundle an entire OS in a Docker image
For debugging image it's sometimes nice to be able to actually do stuff in the container, but for production image I'd agree.
Seriously, this is a ridiculous comparison. It's apples to oranges.
This site used to have interesting technical discussions, but now its all either AI cheerleading, or vibe coder blog posts.
Unity compiles down to 3MB wasm. Though they don't need to ship the dotnet runtime, they use IL2CPP, a proprietary thing that translates dotnet code into C++. Then they run Emscripten on it.
Also I think Godot's WASM outputs used to be 2-3x smaller in Godot 3 (though the C# one was bigger).
You can ship a JS game in kilobytes, although atop 30 million lines of Chromium that's cheating of course :) still good fun.
https://js13kgames.com/
Notch also made a bunch of 4kb Java (not JS) games back in the day, which is probably what got me into this stuff.
https://web.archive.org/web/20090108001738/http://www.mojang...
WASM requires a browser too, no? (or an equivalent runtime, possibly smaller depending on requirements)
I've been playing with Golang and WASM lately; hands-on WASM was new to me.
I found that many dependencies in the ecosystem (especially older ones) do not support GOARCH=wasm nor GOOS=js / GOOS=wasip1. I've had to fork and add support and then do go.mod replace directives. It can get messy.
Golang build tags make it awesome to have different implementations for different systems.
In the browser, it's all single threaded, so goroutines starve each other. I had to put in "breaths" for interactivity.
There's no local filesystem, so you have to figure out other solutions. Some dependencies use the filesystem as an implementation detail or try to shell out. The program will build, but will error at runtime.
That said, it is pretty sweet when it works. You can make WASM games with ebitengine [1] and it emits instructions for a WebGPU renderer; very efficient and many interactivity concerns are handled for you. The NTCharts demo page [2] combines Zig (Ghostty), WASM+Typescript+GLSL (Ghostty Web), and Golang (booba/ntcharts). The WASM size for the demos there is ~5MB each.
My goal is to make tools for terminal remoting and simplify bringing TUIs to the browser. [1] https://ebitengine.org
[2] https://nimblemarkets.github.io/ntcharts/demos/heatpicture-p... press 't' for kitty graphics
Quod is only 64K https://daivuk.itch.io/quod and looks more impressive
There is also .kkrieger (2004) which is 96k
But the thing with what OP did is, that it runs in the browser and uses a common game engine.
Docker can be small too. In this example I was able to compile a full server (rust binary) and package it in a docker (scratch image base) and the total was < 5MB.
https://github.com/srv1n/kurpod/pkgs/container/kurpod-server
wasm version compiles to under a MB though!
> Same as ARM nodes a few years ago: cheaper, denser, widely available – still not the default choice.
Because ARM nodes save you a bit of money (they're cheaper but a bit slower, maybe you end up saving 20-30%) but the move isn't trivial for many tech stacks. When you try it you find you have some Python dependency with a C bit that doesn't have an arm wheel, or your browser automation can't run Chrome on those nodes (there isn't a linux/arm64 build of it). If you're using Go you can cross-compile, although it will likely fail without explicitly disabling cgo, and do you know what the consequences of that are?
Basically it very often ended up being more trouble than it was worth.
I recently ported an old brickout clone I made to Sokol (a C header-based game library). The whole executable is 500kb (macos), surely could be smaller with eg symbols stripped, and it has a whole 3d engine (not that i'm using much more than one custom shader to blit the screen, but it is using 3d engine infrastructure nonetheless). I was impressed that in this day and age such efficiency is still fashionable in some corners. The whole game is about 2mb zipped. Are shameless plugs allowed? If you're curious have a peek! github.com/chrishulbert/brickwarrior
So the engine is 35MB, but what does it run in? By itself it's a binary blob that doesn't do anything.
Chrome seems to be ~404MB installed on here; that is conspicuously missing from the comparisons here to Docker containers which do account for more or less the complete runtime.
10MB for the Google Homepage! 44MB for Facebook Homepage! I have not been paying attention to website bloat. Wow, and people were annoyed when a site had to download a whole JQuery library for a single function.
It's more or less an abomination. Dropping the frameworks and js jazz you could have most of the features of either of these sites served in the kb range. It would save millions of dollars in electricity, billions in infrastructure, and be more secure.
Yes, it's absolutely the frameworks. That each weigh <100KB. Definitely frameworks :D
Edit:
I don't even know where you lot get these numbers from nowadays, smh.
Just checked, in Slovakia, google.com is 1MB (compressed) total with cache disabled. 400kib of those is my own extension that I installed which is counted among the 'loaded scripts'. Loads in 400ms, blink of an eye.
Framework rants are completely detached from reality, as always.
What else would it be? Google is a picture, a text box, and few buttons. Not exactly a lot of HTML
It's replying to this:
> 10MB for the Google Homepage!
Aren't Docker images deduplicated internally, so you'll only notice their size when you try to ship them?
Sure but in WASM, the browser's environment is taking responsibility for many OS concerns (graphics, IO, 3D, hardware). In a Docker image, all that logic needs to be bundled in libraries as you'll only get to "reuse" the hosts' kernel.
A 'fairer' comparison would be a optimized and compiled binary that dynamically links to the OS versus a WASM product (would be kilobytes-megabytes).
Or having the WASM app in a Chromium browser in Docker (would be gigabytes).
WASM sounds great in theory but it's so much pain in practice. Once as a presentation demo I made it run on ESP32 but in the process of digging deep into runtimes and WASM spec, I wanted to disclose pros vs cons and it killed my presentation.
I realize wasm wasn't designed for embedded but it made me open my eyes to it's intricacies like minimum memory allocation, why not native 1 byte variables?
If you want bytecode for embedded see stuff like BASIC Stamp or Parallax Propeller.
Is it fair to compare WASM app to a base install?
The thing runs in a browser that has most of the stuff implemented to integrate with whatever system it runs on, and just needs to present.
It’s payload versus payload + runtime.
Amazing that the point of this article is that 35MB is small and everything else is bloated
Back in the Atari 2600 days, we had full AAA games that sold millions fitting in 4KB...
"AAA games" didn't even exist until 20 years after the 2600
I believe you can create this demo using webgl in less than 4kb.
Garbage AI slop.
kkrieger enters the chat