It would be fascinating to know where the remote drivers were located that were remotely controlling these vehicles. Wasn’t there a big hubbub about using remote staff in the Philippines a while ago? This can change the reliability profile quite a bit. (Internet quality)
Driving skill (and road manners) is also a serious issue, not only Internet quality (it's mostly solved nowadays with dual 5G/dual residential, Starlink is also available, np), getting a driver license is basically just paying a fixer for $200 (equivalent in PHP) and even if you attend the school genuinely and all, it's still super easy versus the west.
You might be overestimating how hard it is to get a license in the states.
My test was literally pay private driving school operator $50, pull onto a four lane road, change lanes, change lanes back, turn right three times to get back to the road, turn left, park successfully between the lines nose in, …and here’s a piece of paper for the DMV to give you a license. Maybe ten minutes, and have never had anyone check to see if I still know the rules in the 20 years since.
I’m sure it has gotten harder in some places, but we really don’t ask for much of new drivers.
Not just the test though. In some states you need approaching 100 hours of signed off driving with an experienced driver (honor system though) and a certified course
Having taken a license in both Denmark and the states, the test in the states was laughable in comparison. In Denmark, there are like 20 mandatory lessons, wet-surface practice, a theoretical exam and a practical exam, both of which people routinely fail (because they're hard). In the US, I paid 20 bucks, drove around the block, parked and received my license.
It's not for anyone else: the non-Tesla AV companies use teleops to at most place breadcrumbs that the vehicle attempts to follow while still in full control of collision avoidance and lower level navigation.
There is never an actual remote driver turning the wheel.
i think the bigger problem is the mechanical turk "solution" where remote drivers are suppose to suddenly be a driver in corner cases as if thats a safe fallback
Does anyone know how the tele operators for either this or waymo interface with the vehicle? Do they have like a sim racing sort of setup? Are they trying to do this through an xbox controller type of thing? I know the military went that route.
The Waymo asks questions like "is this road closed?" and they also have a UI where they can designate in what orientation and where the Waymo should go to so that a path is drawn.
They don't live-control the vehicles. It's a pretty cool solution to the problem.
At least for Waymo, the remote control is not nearly that direct. The human operators suggest a route through a confusing scene, but the self driving remains in control for executing that suggested route, and may reject it.
A remote operator driving directly, via a racing sim setup or an Xbox controller, just isn't safe. Too much latency, lack of visibility, and connection unreliability.
Tesla's setup are a bunch of desks with steering wheels crammed together in a normal call center [0]. Waymo doesn't do teleoperation, but other companies exist that have like Vay. Compare their setup [1].
Given that some of these teleoperators are in the Philipines, and Tesla's sterling reputation for adhering to regulation and laws, I'm going to hazard my own guess.
Waymo doesn’t have remote operators in the same way Tesla does. They can assist with making a decision on what to do if the car is stuck, but they do not remotely drive the car the way Tesla does.
Hey, like so many others, I managed to beat NFS Underground 1 and 2, Most Wanted and Hot Pursuit using only the budget brand e-waste special keyboard, no analog controllers.
IIRC some of the top NFS players also used the keyboard instead of fancy racing syms.
So it's probably possible to control real life cars with a keyboard, provided they implement dedicated input filtering, PID controllers or Kalman filters, and throttle maps, instead of having a key press just be 100% gas/break.
So not only do they still not have truly unsupervised cars, they also remotely drive them sometimes, and their remote drivers have helpfully demonstrated why that’s a terrible idea.
doing the math would be a bit laborious, but does anyone happen to know the kinetic energy embodied in a tesla going the full "ludicrous" velocity?, which by all acounts, can happen very quickly in a short distance.
The article describes the incidents. Both incidents happened at < 10 mph, did not involve other vehicles, and ended up with nothing more than some scratches to the vehicle. The "crashes" from the title is yellow journalism.
Why are we allowing this? Who does it benefit at all? People would lose their minds if you tried this in commercial aviation, yet we're allowing it for something far more dangerous that even with human operators kills people all the time. Absolutely insane.
It would be fascinating to know where the remote drivers were located that were remotely controlling these vehicles. Wasn’t there a big hubbub about using remote staff in the Philippines a while ago? This can change the reliability profile quite a bit. (Internet quality)
Driving skill (and road manners) is also a serious issue, not only Internet quality (it's mostly solved nowadays with dual 5G/dual residential, Starlink is also available, np), getting a driver license is basically just paying a fixer for $200 (equivalent in PHP) and even if you attend the school genuinely and all, it's still super easy versus the west.
You might be overestimating how hard it is to get a license in the states.
My test was literally pay private driving school operator $50, pull onto a four lane road, change lanes, change lanes back, turn right three times to get back to the road, turn left, park successfully between the lines nose in, …and here’s a piece of paper for the DMV to give you a license. Maybe ten minutes, and have never had anyone check to see if I still know the rules in the 20 years since.
I’m sure it has gotten harder in some places, but we really don’t ask for much of new drivers.
Not just the test though. In some states you need approaching 100 hours of signed off driving with an experienced driver (honor system though) and a certified course
Having taken a license in both Denmark and the states, the test in the states was laughable in comparison. In Denmark, there are like 20 mandatory lessons, wet-surface practice, a theoretical exam and a practical exam, both of which people routinely fail (because they're hard). In the US, I paid 20 bucks, drove around the block, parked and received my license.
> Starlink is also available, np
I would NOT be using Starlink for remote vehicle teleoperation even as a fall back.
I don't get it, you prefer a road accident?
> even as a fall back
Why this?
It's not for anyone else: the non-Tesla AV companies use teleops to at most place breadcrumbs that the vehicle attempts to follow while still in full control of collision avoidance and lower level navigation.
There is never an actual remote driver turning the wheel.
i think the bigger problem is the mechanical turk "solution" where remote drivers are suppose to suddenly be a driver in corner cases as if thats a safe fallback
Meanwhile, Waymo is doing 500,000+(!) rides every week.
Does anyone know how the tele operators for either this or waymo interface with the vehicle? Do they have like a sim racing sort of setup? Are they trying to do this through an xbox controller type of thing? I know the military went that route.
They have examples here: https://waymo.com/blog/2024/05/fleet-response/
The Waymo asks questions like "is this road closed?" and they also have a UI where they can designate in what orientation and where the Waymo should go to so that a path is drawn.
They don't live-control the vehicles. It's a pretty cool solution to the problem.
At least for Waymo, the remote control is not nearly that direct. The human operators suggest a route through a confusing scene, but the self driving remains in control for executing that suggested route, and may reject it.
A remote operator driving directly, via a racing sim setup or an Xbox controller, just isn't safe. Too much latency, lack of visibility, and connection unreliability.
Tesla's setup are a bunch of desks with steering wheels crammed together in a normal call center [0]. Waymo doesn't do teleoperation, but other companies exist that have like Vay. Compare their setup [1].
[0] https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GuE3ie2WcAAyeWs?format=jpg&name=...
[1] https://imageio.forbes.com/specials-images/imageserve/6828f0...
Waymo does do teleoperation [1], and they defend its use [2]. Human fallback isn't something to be ashamed about. AGI doesn't exist at the moment.
[1] https://waymo.com/blog/2024/05/fleet-response/
[2] https://www.reuters.com/technology/waymo-defends-use-remote-...
I assume/hope that Tesla teleoperators are required to have drivers licenses in the states in which the cars they are operating are located?
Given that some of these teleoperators are in the Philipines, and Tesla's sterling reputation for adhering to regulation and laws, I'm going to hazard my own guess.
It must be hard to resist to drive the GTA way with such a setup
They’re called off ramps for a reason right?
Waymo doesn’t have remote operators in the same way Tesla does. They can assist with making a decision on what to do if the car is stuck, but they do not remotely drive the car the way Tesla does.
W-A-S-D on a Dell keyboard wouldn't surprise me.
Hey, like so many others, I managed to beat NFS Underground 1 and 2, Most Wanted and Hot Pursuit using only the budget brand e-waste special keyboard, no analog controllers.
IIRC some of the top NFS players also used the keyboard instead of fancy racing syms.
So it's probably possible to control real life cars with a keyboard, provided they implement dedicated input filtering, PID controllers or Kalman filters, and throttle maps, instead of having a key press just be 100% gas/break.
Unless you beat them without crashing once that’s not impressive in a real world context.
Life doesn’t have saves to reload.
Just nuts this company is so highly valued still. Just clown level execution the whole way down.
So not only do they still not have truly unsupervised cars, they also remotely drive them sometimes, and their remote drivers have helpfully demonstrated why that’s a terrible idea.
Tesla is such an embarrassment.
doing the math would be a bit laborious, but does anyone happen to know the kinetic energy embodied in a tesla going the full "ludicrous" velocity?, which by all acounts, can happen very quickly in a short distance.
The article describes the incidents. Both incidents happened at < 10 mph, did not involve other vehicles, and ended up with nothing more than some scratches to the vehicle. The "crashes" from the title is yellow journalism.
According to Tesla, the remotely operated Teslas are limited to 10mph.
https://www.markey.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/company_response...
Why are we allowing this? Who does it benefit at all? People would lose their minds if you tried this in commercial aviation, yet we're allowing it for something far more dangerous that even with human operators kills people all the time. Absolutely insane.