So Bambu's argument hinges on "impersonation" claim of Jarczak's modified client using the same user agent string?
If a user compiles official BambuStudio from source, does BambuLabs then also claim their non-bit-identical client is also impersonating the "real" BambuStudio?
Or are they abusing user agents strings as authentication mechanism?
If they don't consider it abuse, but rather legitimate use of agent strings as authentication mechanism, then are they effectively openly arguing they left the user-agent-as-credential in the public repository? BambuLabs is going to claim in court that it publishes login credentials to its network in its open source BambuStudio, and then complaining that people actually use them?
If I bring my post-it with all my computer passwords to CCC and wave it in front of any camera I find, can I then sue the CCC and others filming, because they are spreading my credentials?
I mean if you do enter a legal case, they cannot just laugh away and be like "oh DoctorOetker such a silly case". They will have to take it seriously and follow all legal procedures. I don't know why people think law is some commonsense topic when it's highly technical and domain-based.
Serious question, I have a Bambulab printer now. What is a good next printer option? Prusa is way too expensive without a decent AMS alternative. Flashforge is doing some sketchy stuff with their maker site + AI. Is Creality or QIDI the best next options?
The thing is, a Prusa will last way longer, and when something breaks it is fully serviceable. All the cheap Chinese brands are at best only partially serviceable. Just the other day I saw a post about a BambuLabs X1C that had to be thrown out because of a pully that was worn out and not replaceable.
Snapmaker (also Chinese) seem to be doing things better at the moment, but only time will tell how the serviceability is.
For me personally, the only viable choices today would be a Prusa Core One (possibly with INDX for multi-material, I don't care about MMU/AMS, those are just for multi-colour and with a lot of waste) or a Voron 2.4. My Prusa Mk3.9s bedslinger is still going strong though, and I don't expect to replace it any time soon.
I think the answer is still Prusa. It's mostly Chinese companies undercutting Prusa's price and they probably care as little about free software licenses and users as Bambu.
I saw this mess coming from miles ahead (and it will repeat itself), so when it was time to replace our Ender 3v2, I got a Prusa printer. Yes, it was much more expensive than Bambu, but at some point we have to put our money where our mouth is. We cannot talk all the time about open source, consumer friendliness, the right to repair, etc. and then reward companies that don't give a shit about it. So our money went to Prusa.
I’ve owned half a dozen printers (Prusa, Bambu, and Creality) and help manage a hackerspace with a print farm of mixed brands, and I won’t personally touch any brand other than Prusa now for actually getting prints done.
There’s plenty of other printers that can do the same or better and/or cheaper if you want “building and managing the printer” to be half the hobby, which is a totally fair thing and can be lots of fun if you’re into tinkering, but for a printer that just prints things as a tool there’s absolutely nothing close to Prusa and they’re worth every cent.
That used to be the case. Less so now - the Chinese brands tend to work right out of the box.
I run an Elegoo Centauri Carbon ar home, and the building and managing process was unscrewing couple transport bolts and clicking "self calibrate" button. From what I've seen, Creality is the same way now too.
Yes, the old Ender 3 I used to have demanded attention every other print. But it's not the norm now.
I'm sure Prusa makes a better product, and it probably starts to make economic sense if you run a print farm. But for home use, a 300€ box that happily melts plastic into whatever shape I need is a sweet deal. It even has a 50€ multi material extension box now, however that's on months long backorder.
I don't know the last time you used Linux, but I've used it as my main OS for almost 20 years and have never really felt like I was "fighting" it. My system has always done exactly what I told it to do.
I also used Mac OS and macOS on and off for probably 20 years as well, and it freaking sucks in many ways. _That's_ where I feel like I'm fighting the system. And I grew up with it.
We Linux desktop people aren't fighting our desktop anymore. Everything just works and it has for some years now. Linux with Steam + Proton is a better gaming platform than MacOS, by the way.
The Year of the Linux Desktop arrived a while ago and nobody noticed :)
I don't know about other brands or even models, but I can attest that the Bambu A1 Mini "just works".
I precisely wanted to avoid another hobby, of which I have too many already. 3D printing as a hobby doesn't appeal to me, I just wanted something that solved the problem and was relatively cheap. The A1 is this for me, it's as close as a fire and forget appliance as I could find.
Not saying there aren't better alternatives, just that it simply works for me.
The A1 mini has turned out to be a fire hazard as of recently. Some component in the power supply that CSN explode and in the worst case catch fire. Multiple events during the last year, and shockingly it hasn't been recalled. You probably don't want to run yours while not in the room.
I assume you're into multi-material printing and want a true multi-extruder setup. Then, quality wise your remaining options are: Prusa, Flashforge, and Snapmaker. Snapmaker very recently just shot themselves in the foot in a similar way that Bambu did, so you're left with Prusa and Flashforge. Of the two remaining, I really only trust Prusa.
Yes you pay a lot more, but I guess that's some sense voting with your wallet... I'm personally going to buy a Prusa after I stabilize where I live.
INDX is an up and coming option that will probably change how multimaterial printing done, hopefully. I bought the founder edition but it will be a long time coming.
As an aspiring business owner, I am looking to transition to a more open printer as the OCL isn't something I want to rely on.
I think that you're just asking for printers that are strictly offline -- and by "offline," I mean: They don't connect to any mothership, ever, nor do they have any facility by which to do so.
There's a ton of printers that are strictly offline. Some are older and some are newer, but there's a ton of them either way. That "offline" part is simple to accomplish.
Can you talk more about what else are you looking to achieve so the field can be pared down a bit?
I'm in the market for a new 3D printer. My old Ultimaker 2 is still going strong, but it's from a different generation and doesn't fit my needs anymore. Looking purely at features, I really want a Bambu Lab X2D. However I hate what that company is doing, don't want to give them my money and don't want to lock myself into their increasingly locked down ecosystem.
Features I want:
- 2 nozzles (print parts with a different support material or a combination of solid and TPU)
- make simple 2-color prints without manual intervention (to add labels on parts, only a few layers require two colors)
- hassle-free filament storage (protected from dust and moisture, multiple spools ready to print at all times)
- a choice of different nozzles (e.g. 0.8 mm) which can be swapped easily
- able to print ABS reliably (or another material that is more heat resistant than PLA), the Ultimaker 2 with its open chamber is not good at this (parts lift off and warp)
- hassle-free operation (no tinkering)
Don't need:
- cloud stuff (I print everything locally, my own models)
You didn't specify a price range, but a Prusa Core One with INDX, or a Prusa XL could work if you aren't price sensitive.
I have heard good things about the Snapmaker U1 that just released, though apparently the slicer software isn't quite there yet, but you could just run stock OrcaSlicer instead.
Time will tell how reliable and more importantly serviceable the Snapmaker is. Prusas are renowned for both of those.
The upcoming INDX looks promising. But I can't see how Prusa solves the "dust- and moisture" problem. They don't have something like Bambu Lab's AMS, do they?
It's sort of ironic that all the money going to "teach Bambu a lesson" is ultimately defending a guy who is building free tooling that specifically adds value to the Bambu platform. In a sense they win either way.
I think more desirable would be to develop a FOSS server-side stack so people can self-host or use Western cloud alternatives.
It's nice to have pinky promise that BambuLabs cloud service doesn't keep copies of your model files, potentially keeps track of print frequencies (is this a prototype or a finished design?), ... it's easy to assume they wouldn't know what that jig you designed for work is for, but if they collect or buy sufficient data with public databases (where was the printer shipped? what business is registered in this location?); its probably very easy to follow and steal jigs / tooling designs / ... and to organize identification of its use by sector.
On one hand, sure. On the other hand, it seems Bambu Lab's intentions are to lock down their ecosystem and extract rent (ala HP and printer ink).
So, if the Vizio case works out for OSS licenses, then Bambu Lab's likely won't be able to lock things down in the way they're intending (unless they expend significant effort to rewrite code).
That'd "stop" them from winning in the way they'd like, to the benefit of the wider Community of Bambu Labs users.
I could see them making working with third party filaments more and more inconvenient. They already do to some extent where the NFC tag system only works on first party filament, and they are not interested in opening it up, using encryption to prevent third party tags from working with their system.
Thanks. This sounds a LOT like the bullshit Anker does with their (now largely abandoned) 3d printers. They forked a slicer and locked people out of the devices unless you’re using theirs.
Me and a buddy, victor teisller, hacked the most popular 3D printer a few years ago (flashforge) to turn it into a major fire hazard through reverse engineering the firmware update remotely. Changed the max temp of the extruder to the temp of the Sun lol. These things are a fascinating security target because they're an easy place to turn abstract digital hacking into physical repersussions that can literally murder.
I'm not in the community, so I'm taking this article at face value. If I read correctly, he made software that possibly exploited a security gap, they asked him to remove it, then he demanded free hardware. They said no, and the conversation turned sour.
Why is everyone mad at them? I'm not blaming either side, but it sounds like a rather typical failed negotiation.
Sure, for context the image in the article captioned
> code shows that his fork of OrcaSlicer identifies itself as “BambuStudio,” but mostly just by saying that out loud and hoping Bambu’s systems don’t ask any questions. Image: Bambu
So Bambu's argument hinges on "impersonation" claim of Jarczak's modified client using the same user agent string?
If a user compiles official BambuStudio from source, does BambuLabs then also claim their non-bit-identical client is also impersonating the "real" BambuStudio?
Or are they abusing user agents strings as authentication mechanism?
If they don't consider it abuse, but rather legitimate use of agent strings as authentication mechanism, then are they effectively openly arguing they left the user-agent-as-credential in the public repository? BambuLabs is going to claim in court that it publishes login credentials to its network in its open source BambuStudio, and then complaining that people actually use them?
If I bring my post-it with all my computer passwords to CCC and wave it in front of any camera I find, can I then sue the CCC and others filming, because they are spreading my credentials?
Or should I be laughed away in court?
I think the weak precedent here is Apple vs Palm:
Palm devices pretended to be iPods so that users could use iTunes to copy music to them. Apple threatened legal action and Palm backed down.
The ipods weren’t open source, however
and the designs being printed are most often the user's own, or else legitimately acquired through model repositories...
I mean if you do enter a legal case, they cannot just laugh away and be like "oh DoctorOetker such a silly case". They will have to take it seriously and follow all legal procedures. I don't know why people think law is some commonsense topic when it's highly technical and domain-based.
I'm not asking what the courts do, I'm asking what they should do?
I've just bought my first 3D printer and I decided against Bamboo because of the drama that has happened lately, and I'm glad I did.
Serious question, I have a Bambulab printer now. What is a good next printer option? Prusa is way too expensive without a decent AMS alternative. Flashforge is doing some sketchy stuff with their maker site + AI. Is Creality or QIDI the best next options?
The thing is, a Prusa will last way longer, and when something breaks it is fully serviceable. All the cheap Chinese brands are at best only partially serviceable. Just the other day I saw a post about a BambuLabs X1C that had to be thrown out because of a pully that was worn out and not replaceable.
Snapmaker (also Chinese) seem to be doing things better at the moment, but only time will tell how the serviceability is.
For me personally, the only viable choices today would be a Prusa Core One (possibly with INDX for multi-material, I don't care about MMU/AMS, those are just for multi-colour and with a lot of waste) or a Voron 2.4. My Prusa Mk3.9s bedslinger is still going strong though, and I don't expect to replace it any time soon.
I think the answer is still Prusa. It's mostly Chinese companies undercutting Prusa's price and they probably care as little about free software licenses and users as Bambu.
I saw this mess coming from miles ahead (and it will repeat itself), so when it was time to replace our Ender 3v2, I got a Prusa printer. Yes, it was much more expensive than Bambu, but at some point we have to put our money where our mouth is. We cannot talk all the time about open source, consumer friendliness, the right to repair, etc. and then reward companies that don't give a shit about it. So our money went to Prusa.
It's a great printer too!
I’ve owned half a dozen printers (Prusa, Bambu, and Creality) and help manage a hackerspace with a print farm of mixed brands, and I won’t personally touch any brand other than Prusa now for actually getting prints done.
There’s plenty of other printers that can do the same or better and/or cheaper if you want “building and managing the printer” to be half the hobby, which is a totally fair thing and can be lots of fun if you’re into tinkering, but for a printer that just prints things as a tool there’s absolutely nothing close to Prusa and they’re worth every cent.
That used to be the case. Less so now - the Chinese brands tend to work right out of the box.
I run an Elegoo Centauri Carbon ar home, and the building and managing process was unscrewing couple transport bolts and clicking "self calibrate" button. From what I've seen, Creality is the same way now too.
Yes, the old Ender 3 I used to have demanded attention every other print. But it's not the norm now.
I'm sure Prusa makes a better product, and it probably starts to make economic sense if you run a print farm. But for home use, a 300€ box that happily melts plastic into whatever shape I need is a sweet deal. It even has a 50€ multi material extension box now, however that's on months long backorder.
do these alternatives all share the same pattern of providing cloud services like BambuLabs?
building and managing a printer is far from a hobby. it's like the Linux desktop people who just fight with their system instead of enjoying MacOS.
If this isn't trigger bait, I don't know what is.
I don't know the last time you used Linux, but I've used it as my main OS for almost 20 years and have never really felt like I was "fighting" it. My system has always done exactly what I told it to do.
I also used Mac OS and macOS on and off for probably 20 years as well, and it freaking sucks in many ways. _That's_ where I feel like I'm fighting the system. And I grew up with it.
We Linux desktop people aren't fighting our desktop anymore. Everything just works and it has for some years now. Linux with Steam + Proton is a better gaming platform than MacOS, by the way.
The Year of the Linux Desktop arrived a while ago and nobody noticed :)
Well, you can choose to fight your OS (said with love from a Gentoo and NixOS user). You just don't have to:)
I don't know about other brands or even models, but I can attest that the Bambu A1 Mini "just works".
I precisely wanted to avoid another hobby, of which I have too many already. 3D printing as a hobby doesn't appeal to me, I just wanted something that solved the problem and was relatively cheap. The A1 is this for me, it's as close as a fire and forget appliance as I could find.
Not saying there aren't better alternatives, just that it simply works for me.
The A1 mini has turned out to be a fire hazard as of recently. Some component in the power supply that CSN explode and in the worst case catch fire. Multiple events during the last year, and shockingly it hasn't been recalled. You probably don't want to run yours while not in the room.
I assume you're into multi-material printing and want a true multi-extruder setup. Then, quality wise your remaining options are: Prusa, Flashforge, and Snapmaker. Snapmaker very recently just shot themselves in the foot in a similar way that Bambu did, so you're left with Prusa and Flashforge. Of the two remaining, I really only trust Prusa.
Yes you pay a lot more, but I guess that's some sense voting with your wallet... I'm personally going to buy a Prusa after I stabilize where I live.
Another option would be a Voron kit with INDX or some other tool changer added to it.
(Also, what did Snapmaker do? I thought they were relatively innocuous?)
INDX is an up and coming option that will probably change how multimaterial printing done, hopefully. I bought the founder edition but it will be a long time coming.
As an aspiring business owner, I am looking to transition to a more open printer as the OCL isn't something I want to rely on.
What’s wrong with the OCL if you’re a business owner?
I don't want to ask Prusa for permission.
I think that you're just asking for printers that are strictly offline -- and by "offline," I mean: They don't connect to any mothership, ever, nor do they have any facility by which to do so.
There's a ton of printers that are strictly offline. Some are older and some are newer, but there's a ton of them either way. That "offline" part is simple to accomplish.
Can you talk more about what else are you looking to achieve so the field can be pared down a bit?
Prusa is awesome, and a great next printer once you know you're in.
I have a problem:
I'm in the market for a new 3D printer. My old Ultimaker 2 is still going strong, but it's from a different generation and doesn't fit my needs anymore. Looking purely at features, I really want a Bambu Lab X2D. However I hate what that company is doing, don't want to give them my money and don't want to lock myself into their increasingly locked down ecosystem.
Features I want:
- 2 nozzles (print parts with a different support material or a combination of solid and TPU)
- make simple 2-color prints without manual intervention (to add labels on parts, only a few layers require two colors)
- hassle-free filament storage (protected from dust and moisture, multiple spools ready to print at all times)
- a choice of different nozzles (e.g. 0.8 mm) which can be swapped easily
- able to print ABS reliably (or another material that is more heat resistant than PLA), the Ultimaker 2 with its open chamber is not good at this (parts lift off and warp)
- hassle-free operation (no tinkering)
Don't need:
- cloud stuff (I print everything locally, my own models)
What should I buy?
You didn't specify a price range, but a Prusa Core One with INDX, or a Prusa XL could work if you aren't price sensitive.
I have heard good things about the Snapmaker U1 that just released, though apparently the slicer software isn't quite there yet, but you could just run stock OrcaSlicer instead.
Time will tell how reliable and more importantly serviceable the Snapmaker is. Prusas are renowned for both of those.
The upcoming INDX looks promising. But I can't see how Prusa solves the "dust- and moisture" problem. They don't have something like Bambu Lab's AMS, do they?
Same problem with the Snapmaker U1.
See if Qidi meets your requirements
It's sort of ironic that all the money going to "teach Bambu a lesson" is ultimately defending a guy who is building free tooling that specifically adds value to the Bambu platform. In a sense they win either way.
I think more desirable would be to develop a FOSS server-side stack so people can self-host or use Western cloud alternatives.
It's nice to have pinky promise that BambuLabs cloud service doesn't keep copies of your model files, potentially keeps track of print frequencies (is this a prototype or a finished design?), ... it's easy to assume they wouldn't know what that jig you designed for work is for, but if they collect or buy sufficient data with public databases (where was the printer shipped? what business is registered in this location?); its probably very easy to follow and steal jigs / tooling designs / ... and to organize identification of its use by sector.
On one hand, sure. On the other hand, it seems Bambu Lab's intentions are to lock down their ecosystem and extract rent (ala HP and printer ink).
So, if the Vizio case works out for OSS licenses, then Bambu Lab's likely won't be able to lock things down in the way they're intending (unless they expend significant effort to rewrite code).
That'd "stop" them from winning in the way they'd like, to the benefit of the wider Community of Bambu Labs users.
Extract rent how? Mandatory paid subscription?
I cannot see the future but I believe this fear is unsubstantiated.
I could see them making working with third party filaments more and more inconvenient. They already do to some extent where the NFC tag system only works on first party filament, and they are not interested in opening it up, using encryption to prevent third party tags from working with their system.
https://archive.is/p6ufq
Weirdly, archive.is is timing out for me whereas archive.vn is working: https://archive.vn/p6ufq
Thanks. This sounds a LOT like the bullshit Anker does with their (now largely abandoned) 3d printers. They forked a slicer and locked people out of the devices unless you’re using theirs.
Me and a buddy, victor teisller, hacked the most popular 3D printer a few years ago (flashforge) to turn it into a major fire hazard through reverse engineering the firmware update remotely. Changed the max temp of the extruder to the temp of the Sun lol. These things are a fascinating security target because they're an easy place to turn abstract digital hacking into physical repersussions that can literally murder.
https://www.theregister.com/security/2020/04/13/how-to-make-...
I wonder whether Bambu printers run Doom.
I'm not in the community, so I'm taking this article at face value. If I read correctly, he made software that possibly exploited a security gap, they asked him to remove it, then he demanded free hardware. They said no, and the conversation turned sour.
Why is everyone mad at them? I'm not blaming either side, but it sounds like a rather typical failed negotiation.
> that possibly exploited a security gap
It set a HTTP user agent string...
I'm quoting the article without technical analysis or personal biases.
> But he wanted to be “properly acknowledged” for possibly revealing “a significant security gap
Sure, for context the image in the article captioned
> code shows that his fork of OrcaSlicer identifies itself as “BambuStudio,” but mostly just by saying that out loud and hoping Bambu’s systems don’t ask any questions. Image: Bambu
is the “security gap”
He just copied their AGPL licensed code, they send the DMCA notice because he didn’t change their user agent string.