I also want to communicate with someone and have programming conversations. There's no one around me to talk about programming with. I'm the only programmer around. Aside from AI and books, I sometimes want to talk with a real person.
I gave away an old switch to a guy on Gumtree. He mentioned he was building a machine cabinet. We got talking. He's now my home lab shoptalk guy, and we meet in the pub every other month.
I gave away an old PCB to a guy in gumtree. We got talking. He's now my 3D printer shop talk guy, and we meet at the pub every other month.
It's surprisingly easier to foster your own hacker space if you trade goods in those circles.
Best part is that Gumtree/Craigslist/Kleinanzeigen let you define a radius to meet these people, so they're all local
I'd advise against the "Im lonely..." angle in seeking out these connections, go more for the "hey I've got this thing you might want..." style patter, even if the former is true.
Most of my local music production buddies I've met by selling and purchasing second-hand music hardware, as I always sell/buy stuff in driving range, and it's a nice excuse to meet people who like the same stuff as you :) Lots of ways to meet people like this, depending on what you're into.
I found great enjoyment from https://late.sh/. I'm not as active as I would like to be but the small community is still active enought that there is basically always someone around to chat with.
I (software engineer) have lived with a software engineer for 14 years. We (half jokingly, somewhat seriously) refer to non-software engineers as "real persons", or human-humans.
In most places there are software meetups, in my area there are many at meetup.com. I once started one myself, that later got taken over and is still quite big. Actually a lot of fun, and at the time we would even get sponsoring offers quite quickly.
I don't have that kind of gathering on side. There are no programming meetups. It's an industrial area. My job mostly involves programming equipment operation using WinForm and WPF. I sometimes wish there were such meetups too. Around here, it's all factories
Create your own low-stakes "Beer & Programming" or whatever is doable where you live.
I grew up on a island where there was maybe one or two other people who knew computers enough to know programming as a thing existed as a concept, but similarly to you, absolutely nothing else, and it gets very lonely and outright boring after a while.
I solved this (accidentally) by moving to another area, but isn't possible for everyone, then the closest you can get to that would be to bring people closer to where you are instead, or start up something small and reoccurring :)
I wrote an essay and sent it to Chomsky once. He wrote back that he probably won't have time to read it.
Some years ago I realized that I can just start sending emails to an OSS mailing list. Without introduction just starting to post as if I belonged there. I had already made some grammar fixes more than five years before that but I started to comment and critique submissions. And submitting my own patches. Now checking the mailing list is daily habit. Unfortunately I didn't have time to post the second version of a submission on the bus today (another documentation fix).
People, and especially in my culture, are very good at staying out of places where they do not belong through self-policing alone. Unfortunately to the point where at least I do get stuck in narrow patterns and never even consider certain opportunities.
When I started working in software I took a job in a city different than mine, so I had to go there to live alone, and the job was by myself in a room with no windows. Most lonely 2 years of my life.
On the other hand, I wasn't working in software but after I moved country, I managed to get my foot into the industry, and it opened up my social life like nothing else, as finally I had people around me who also like software development, something I never experienced for ~18 years or so until I did a drastic move.
I constantly wonder what life was like, then, for the earliest inventors, scientists, and curious minds in our history. Surely they didn't have many people to bounce ideas or build things with. How did they find the strength to persist in their interests? These days, it's far easier to quit when you cannot find community since you can distract yourself with many kinds of entertainment instead; and with bleak economic outlook everywhere, the very act of persistence itself can feel rather pointless.
Maybe it's a bit over-generalized, but I generally find there are two types of people in world, the important one here is the one's who are genuinely curious, and they tend to be that about everything, especially things they don't understand.
Growing up rural, I had about zero people interested in technology around me, even less about programming. But, there was a few of those "curious people" who I talked to about computers and programming. They mostly had no idea, but they were interested, and engaging to talk about, they acted more like a wall to bounce the ball against, rather than actually mentoring me for programming, or whatever.
Anyways, these people, the curious ones, exists everywhere, even in rural areas, even in places with less than 1000 people. They tend to be seen maybe as eccentric, odd or weird, but you can talk to them about everything and anything, and you'll still probably learn something, if not about the subject, maybe about yourself or maybe about your new friend :)
They did have immense networks and were constantly communicating with one another. In On the Origin of Species, I was amazed how Darwin basically knew all the top breeders and naturists form South America, Arab Gulf, Oceania, which he mentions by name. He mentions his peers from the first page in the introduction and the correspondence and responses he got from them.
There's not many geniuses without an ecosystem around them that produced them. And even if there are, how would we know about them if they weren't well connected enough to start mattering?
I would say that a big part of research in Ye Old Days was either your local peers and colleagues but especially it was exchanging letters with the known Big Names in their respective fields. It is not without reason that nowadays that correspondence between researchers is a great source of insight.
This is the way! Email is great. I've written to many famous people, and from time to time, gotten replies. I've sold SaaS and consultants for 100s of k of USD, all through emails. It's an elegant weapon, for a more civilized age.
The point about self-policing keeping us out of places we belong hits hard. Imposter syndrome makes isolation feel safe, but just jumping in and participating is where real growth happens.
One should go for it if they enjoy it, yes. On the other hand, life and work is not meant to be spent in full time worldwide interaction either.
If someone want to interact with people like Linus Torvalds, they should be aware that in his case he publicly admitted the way he interacted with other was toxic[1]. To be clear, it’s no personal attack against him, it’s about the kind of interaction that can and does occur with largely celebrated figures in general. If anything at least in that case there is some recognition of the issue, though fair credit should probably given also to all people beyond the scene who certainly made tremendous effort for this to happen.
And things like popular micro-blogging platforms are notoriously known to cause interaction going toxic[2].
Just because something is possible doesn’t mean its a nice path to thrive for everybody.
To each their own judgment, but at least consider the tradeoffs.
Why stop at these people. You might as well reach out to Elon Musk, Tim Cook, and Jansen Huang. There's more to life than tech companies. Why not reach out to the president. It takes less effort than you might think to reach out to anyone in the world. It is truly a small place.
If you email a CEO or President, you're not emailing them. You're emailing a team of EAs who are filtering for them. Their fame leads to a lot of problems in the inbox: begging letters, death threats, and irrelevant noise more than you can imagine.
They also don't know much that you can probably make use of. They might think they do, and you might think they do, but they got there mostly through knowing how to talk to boards and investors, not by being able to engage deeply in expertise that is applicable to most people looking to make their way in the World - and if becoming a CEO of a major tech firm or President is the thing you need the help with, you probably know them or people like them already.
I've met quite a few famous people in tech over the years, particularly open source, and have had some short and some long conversations with many of them. I've found most people pretty approachable.
I also know through another side of my life quite a few people in the media and am an acquaintance of someone who is a household name in the UK. Through him, I've met famous sports people, writers, actors, etc., and through that and other networks I know people who have worked behind the scenes on major TV and theatre shows who have met hundreds of famous people.
The one thing that unifies all of them is obvious, but seemingly lost on a lot of people who "other" those whose names are known to them despite never meeting them: they're all just human.
They're not "other", they're us. Including everyone you see on TV, everyone you have read about in magazines, everyone you see on a stage.
They have to put up with being recognised and people dealing with them in strange ways (how would you really deal with a stranger asking for a selfie while you were eating dinner with your family in a restaurant?), but they still do all the things you and I do. As the old saying goes, they all have to put their trousers on one leg at a time in the morning.
I'd definitely encourage people to seek out experts (not just "famous people" unless those people are famous for expertise), and engage them as you'd want to be engaged about your expertise. You'll find most people will be approachable.
But emailing that specific list of people is unlikely going to get you much beyond a template reply from one of their army of assistants.
I also want to communicate with someone and have programming conversations. There's no one around me to talk about programming with. I'm the only programmer around. Aside from AI and books, I sometimes want to talk with a real person.
I gave away an old switch to a guy on Gumtree. He mentioned he was building a machine cabinet. We got talking. He's now my home lab shoptalk guy, and we meet in the pub every other month.
I gave away an old PCB to a guy in gumtree. We got talking. He's now my 3D printer shop talk guy, and we meet at the pub every other month.
It's surprisingly easier to foster your own hacker space if you trade goods in those circles.
Best part is that Gumtree/Craigslist/Kleinanzeigen let you define a radius to meet these people, so they're all local
I'd advise against the "Im lonely..." angle in seeking out these connections, go more for the "hey I've got this thing you might want..." style patter, even if the former is true.
And always use protection.
Awesome. Similar experience to me. Was selling some sim racing gear, and he mentioned he was in fabrication. Now he's my fab guy and we chat heaps.
Most of my local music production buddies I've met by selling and purchasing second-hand music hardware, as I always sell/buy stuff in driving range, and it's a nice excuse to meet people who like the same stuff as you :) Lots of ways to meet people like this, depending on what you're into.
I found great enjoyment from https://late.sh/. I'm not as active as I would like to be but the small community is still active enought that there is basically always someone around to chat with.
thanks!
I (software engineer) have lived with a software engineer for 14 years. We (half jokingly, somewhat seriously) refer to non-software engineers as "real persons", or human-humans.
In most places there are software meetups, in my area there are many at meetup.com. I once started one myself, that later got taken over and is still quite big. Actually a lot of fun, and at the time we would even get sponsoring offers quite quickly.
I don't have that kind of gathering on side. There are no programming meetups. It's an industrial area. My job mostly involves programming equipment operation using WinForm and WPF. I sometimes wish there were such meetups too. Around here, it's all factories
Create your own low-stakes "Beer & Programming" or whatever is doable where you live.
I grew up on a island where there was maybe one or two other people who knew computers enough to know programming as a thing existed as a concept, but similarly to you, absolutely nothing else, and it gets very lonely and outright boring after a while.
I solved this (accidentally) by moving to another area, but isn't possible for everyone, then the closest you can get to that would be to bring people closer to where you are instead, or start up something small and reoccurring :)
Thank you for your advice.
I wrote an essay and sent it to Chomsky once. He wrote back that he probably won't have time to read it.
Some years ago I realized that I can just start sending emails to an OSS mailing list. Without introduction just starting to post as if I belonged there. I had already made some grammar fixes more than five years before that but I started to comment and critique submissions. And submitting my own patches. Now checking the mailing list is daily habit. Unfortunately I didn't have time to post the second version of a submission on the bus today (another documentation fix).
People, and especially in my culture, are very good at staying out of places where they do not belong through self-policing alone. Unfortunately to the point where at least I do get stuck in narrow patterns and never even consider certain opportunities.
When I started working in software I took a job in a city different than mine, so I had to go there to live alone, and the job was by myself in a room with no windows. Most lonely 2 years of my life.
On the other hand, I wasn't working in software but after I moved country, I managed to get my foot into the industry, and it opened up my social life like nothing else, as finally I had people around me who also like software development, something I never experienced for ~18 years or so until I did a drastic move.
I constantly wonder what life was like, then, for the earliest inventors, scientists, and curious minds in our history. Surely they didn't have many people to bounce ideas or build things with. How did they find the strength to persist in their interests? These days, it's far easier to quit when you cannot find community since you can distract yourself with many kinds of entertainment instead; and with bleak economic outlook everywhere, the very act of persistence itself can feel rather pointless.
Maybe it's a bit over-generalized, but I generally find there are two types of people in world, the important one here is the one's who are genuinely curious, and they tend to be that about everything, especially things they don't understand.
Growing up rural, I had about zero people interested in technology around me, even less about programming. But, there was a few of those "curious people" who I talked to about computers and programming. They mostly had no idea, but they were interested, and engaging to talk about, they acted more like a wall to bounce the ball against, rather than actually mentoring me for programming, or whatever.
Anyways, these people, the curious ones, exists everywhere, even in rural areas, even in places with less than 1000 people. They tend to be seen maybe as eccentric, odd or weird, but you can talk to them about everything and anything, and you'll still probably learn something, if not about the subject, maybe about yourself or maybe about your new friend :)
They did have immense networks and were constantly communicating with one another. In On the Origin of Species, I was amazed how Darwin basically knew all the top breeders and naturists form South America, Arab Gulf, Oceania, which he mentions by name. He mentions his peers from the first page in the introduction and the correspondence and responses he got from them.
There's not many geniuses without an ecosystem around them that produced them. And even if there are, how would we know about them if they weren't well connected enough to start mattering?
They wrote a lot of letters to each other. That's effectively how the Royal Society started, as the formalization of a network of letter writers
I would say that a big part of research in Ye Old Days was either your local peers and colleagues but especially it was exchanging letters with the known Big Names in their respective fields. It is not without reason that nowadays that correspondence between researchers is a great source of insight.
Amazing how these people are even reachable via phone, their numbers are pretty easy to find.
I wrote an email to Mike Pall once and got a very refreshing reply.
Daniel Stenberg is not on the list but he is also a very active programmer on social media like LinkedIn that you can interact with.
This is the way! Email is great. I've written to many famous people, and from time to time, gotten replies. I've sold SaaS and consultants for 100s of k of USD, all through emails. It's an elegant weapon, for a more civilized age.
The point about self-policing keeping us out of places we belong hits hard. Imposter syndrome makes isolation feel safe, but just jumping in and participating is where real growth happens.
One should go for it if they enjoy it, yes. On the other hand, life and work is not meant to be spent in full time worldwide interaction either.
If someone want to interact with people like Linus Torvalds, they should be aware that in his case he publicly admitted the way he interacted with other was toxic[1]. To be clear, it’s no personal attack against him, it’s about the kind of interaction that can and does occur with largely celebrated figures in general. If anything at least in that case there is some recognition of the issue, though fair credit should probably given also to all people beyond the scene who certainly made tremendous effort for this to happen.
And things like popular micro-blogging platforms are notoriously known to cause interaction going toxic[2].
Just because something is possible doesn’t mean its a nice path to thrive for everybody.
To each their own judgment, but at least consider the tradeoffs.
[1] https://www.newyorker.com/science/elements/after-years-of-ab...
[2] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-024-07229-y
Why stop at these people. You might as well reach out to Elon Musk, Tim Cook, and Jansen Huang. There's more to life than tech companies. Why not reach out to the president. It takes less effort than you might think to reach out to anyone in the world. It is truly a small place.
If you email a CEO or President, you're not emailing them. You're emailing a team of EAs who are filtering for them. Their fame leads to a lot of problems in the inbox: begging letters, death threats, and irrelevant noise more than you can imagine.
They also don't know much that you can probably make use of. They might think they do, and you might think they do, but they got there mostly through knowing how to talk to boards and investors, not by being able to engage deeply in expertise that is applicable to most people looking to make their way in the World - and if becoming a CEO of a major tech firm or President is the thing you need the help with, you probably know them or people like them already.
I've met quite a few famous people in tech over the years, particularly open source, and have had some short and some long conversations with many of them. I've found most people pretty approachable.
I also know through another side of my life quite a few people in the media and am an acquaintance of someone who is a household name in the UK. Through him, I've met famous sports people, writers, actors, etc., and through that and other networks I know people who have worked behind the scenes on major TV and theatre shows who have met hundreds of famous people.
The one thing that unifies all of them is obvious, but seemingly lost on a lot of people who "other" those whose names are known to them despite never meeting them: they're all just human.
They're not "other", they're us. Including everyone you see on TV, everyone you have read about in magazines, everyone you see on a stage.
They have to put up with being recognised and people dealing with them in strange ways (how would you really deal with a stranger asking for a selfie while you were eating dinner with your family in a restaurant?), but they still do all the things you and I do. As the old saying goes, they all have to put their trousers on one leg at a time in the morning.
I'd definitely encourage people to seek out experts (not just "famous people" unless those people are famous for expertise), and engage them as you'd want to be engaged about your expertise. You'll find most people will be approachable.
But emailing that specific list of people is unlikely going to get you much beyond a template reply from one of their army of assistants.