It's pretty astounding to me the number of pro-DST advocates in this forum. If you had hundreds of daily jobs on your platform and you happen to have some regular requirement to change them in unison, if a junior engineer said "let's just change the system clock to adjust for when we want the jobs to run", you would say no, because while it might be easy compared to changing the config for each of the jobs, the risk of ongoing errors, side effects, introduction of jobs that need to fixed in absolute time that you have to make the inverse change... It's a system nightmare.
Between this and the "Sunset time and the economic effects of social jetlag: evidence from US time zone borders" paper [0], it seems like the issue is the size of the discontinuous jump in time, not necessarily that we change the clocks. So why not "smear" the DST<=> ST transitions by having four half hour transitions, once each quarter?
> So why not "smear" the DST<=> ST transitions by having four half hour transitions, once each quarter?
Very easy answer: Because it's already painful twice a year, and that would be making it even worse.
That answer is similar to the one for questions like "why do we have wide time zones that are somewhat inaccurate, rather than setting every clock based on the exact position of that clock?".
I’d be okay with every day having a different # of seconds. That way we slowly adjust with no discontinuity, but the nominal start time of school/work stays the same.
While this feels would be a disaster for other reasons like: “How many seconds are in an hour?” -> “Depends, no one knows.” … that’s already the case with our existing leap seconds.
In Seattle, without DST, sunrise happens at 4:11am. Because of DST, it's pushed back an hour later to a more reasonable 5:11am.
I am not awake at 4am, I have no use for sunlight at 4am, and I don't want the sun appearing that early. That hour of early sunlight is wasted for me. Plus with DST, the sun sets an hour later, at 9:11pm, a time I am actually awake, and I can actually go outside and use the extra sun.
With permanent DST, then in winter sunrise is at 9am in Seattle, which is far too late. I do not want to go to work in the dark, before sunrise. So I want standard time in winter, pushing sunrise earlier a more reasonable 8am.
In both situations (summer and winter), modifying the time via DST benefits me and gives me better use of sunlight.
> businesses set their own hours, not the government
In plenty of countries the government decided the opening hours of shops, restaurants and sometimes even offices. Labor laws and nighttime pay is coupled to the hours on the clock. Hours you can make noise is decided by government. Germany has the mid-day resting hour (Mittagsruhe).
Then we should have timezones based not just on longitude, but also latitude. So northerly locales can get some sleep in the spring/summer/fall.
> If your issue is when work is scheduled, well businesses set their own hours, not the government.
Ah, someone who doesn't have kids in school/camp/some random activity yet.
We know how this goes in China (one time zone, no daylight savings time). Coming home from the bar in Beijing with the sun showing up at 4 AM was quaint back then, but I'm definitely glad we have DST in the states.
Beijing is a bad example, because all of China actually has Beijing time. It gets confusing in Xinjang, which is 2 hours in the "wrong" timezone. But that doesn't mean that people start work at 8:00 in complete darkness, they just start at 10:00 wall time.
I think the talk of daylight savings time is a distraction, in the end it is arbitrary what the clock says. As a society we need to negotiate when (in celestial time) we want to do certain activities. For example, there are a lot of studies that school starts to early (relative to sunrise and the average bed time of teenagers). But the school starting time has to be decided politically. And reduced working hours or later start times have to be negotiated by trade unions, politics etc.. That's a lot more messy than just shifting wall time.
Yeah, as someone who lives in Vermont, you could talk me into permanent DST. That would move the winter sunset from, say, 4:21pm to 5:21pm, which would mean I'd get enough twilight for a short walk after work. And Maine is even further east and north in the same time zone, so they have an even earlier sunset. On the other hand, Vermont's standard time sunrise around 7:20 is reasonable enough.
Parts of Vermont have traditionally coped with this by having an 8-4 workday instead of 9-5.
But the reality is that Vermont gets only about an hour of daylight outside working hours, depending on local customs. People have extremely strong preferences about how that hour gets split up.
Yeah, it’s insane. Along with that, any permanent gains in the morning will be lost as soon as it becomes normal. Businesses will just open that much earlier. And this study assumed bedtimes of 10pm, which is not the average anywhere on the planet from what I remember the last time I looked into this. The average is like past midnight.
This just seems like a backwards justification. There is nothing wrong with a 9am sunrise or a 4:11am sunrise. People in Anchorage deal with both just fine.
> I am not awake at 4am, I have no use for sunlight at 4am
Most people aren’t awake at 5am either. Your use for the sun when there is an excess of it that goes well past your bedtime if you get up at 5am is irrelevant.
I can see the DST argument for people where the shift kinda sorta works out, but many places (like Anchorage!) it's completely unnecessary. I live in Sweden and it's just the twice annually "ah shit the clock moved overnight."
You realize that you can change your own sleep patterns seasonally if you want to? Heck, you could do that even gradually instead of those abrupt 1 hour changes. That is your choice, we don't need to fiddle with clocks for the whole society for that.
Please name some of these countries. Europe is stuck with this nonsense and there is no hope in sight despite yearly polls showing majority people being against it.
No, it is intended for a small band of places where the latitude is big enough to make winter and summer daytime length significantly different, but not so different that DST does nothing. In Sweden, with DST, the sunrise is at 4am in summer and 8am in winter. Just set it so noon is actually noon.
> In Sweden, with DST, the sunrise is at 4am in summer and 8am in winter.
In Sweden, in summer without DST, sunrise in Stockholm would happen ~2:30 AM. In the current system, with DST, sunrise happens around 3:30 AM, an improvement.
In winter, if Sweden kept permanent DST (which is what many advocate for), sunrise in December would happen at around 9:45 AM. In the current system (shifting time back during winter), it happens around 8:45 AM, a more reasonable time.
You realize you're literally proving my point?
> Just set it so noon is actually noon.
Pretty meaningless to advocate for this, then every longitude would have its own timezone, defeating the purpose of timezones.
No, that’s describing permanent DST, which was tried and failed, not lack of DST. Most people in the world live without DST and it’s fine. (The article also mentions this.)
Except it's not like Chesterton's fence, it was created at the edge of living memory for known reasons. If anything it's an example of the opposite effect, something like Chesterton's field, do we really need to build a wall here, it's been a field for a damn long time...
My controversial idea: midnight should be where current 4AM is because 04:00 is the lowest point of human circadian rhythm. Currently we have nonsense like "1AM is technically a part of the next day but for all practical purposes it's still the previous day". Also, 24h clock should be the standard so that we can avoid discussions "is 12AM noon or midnight".
I live in Western Australia. for 3 years we trialed DST from 2006 to 2009. It was a nightmare personally, I was a sysadmin at the time and enterprise management tools were expensive and crap so we had to roll out DST file changes across our fleet manually. And because the change to allow DST for our region was a rushed job we then had to roll back after the 3 year unsuccessful trial.
Honestly, it was super stressful at the time. And DST that doesn't exist doesn't bother you in the slightest. Every day ends and flows into the next like the last. But the stress of a clock change twice a year doesn't have to happen, it's a choice.
Are you Yanks seriously not going to get this sorted out before winter? BC has moved - can at least the rest of Cascadia get their asses in gear? Come on, California, I do not want to be dealing with a north-south time zone difference with my coworkers
Yes, we won't. It turns out that we're way too terrible at being rational way too much of the time.
For DST in particular: Even discussions where the participants manage to form something resembling a quorum to stop changing the clocks twice every year somehow manage to unilaterally get sucked into a seemingly-inescapable quagmire of differing opinions, wherein: The decision of whether to use standard time and stick with it or to stick with DST instead becomes an intractable impasse.
Accordingly, nothing ever gets done.
I have every expectation that I will be dead and buried before this issue is resolved.
I really don't want the sunrise time to be 5:00 in the morning and still not have any daylight to do errands after work. I don't care what the reasons are, but if seasons change the sunset time, what's so wrong with changing it a bit more?
> the researchers estimate that permanent standard time would result in some 300,000 fewer people having suffered from a stroke and result in 2.6 million fewer people having obesity
That 2.6 million people are obese because of a 1h shorter change night in one Sunday a year is an extraordinary claim. I would love to understand how they got to this result.
It's pretty astounding to me the number of pro-DST advocates in this forum. If you had hundreds of daily jobs on your platform and you happen to have some regular requirement to change them in unison, if a junior engineer said "let's just change the system clock to adjust for when we want the jobs to run", you would say no, because while it might be easy compared to changing the config for each of the jobs, the risk of ongoing errors, side effects, introduction of jobs that need to fixed in absolute time that you have to make the inverse change... It's a system nightmare.
That is why you run your jobs on GMT/UTC and not display time.
The jobs need to run at midnight, local time. Which shifts from UTC. How to handle?
Between this and the "Sunset time and the economic effects of social jetlag: evidence from US time zone borders" paper [0], it seems like the issue is the size of the discontinuous jump in time, not necessarily that we change the clocks. So why not "smear" the DST<=> ST transitions by having four half hour transitions, once each quarter?
[0]https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31030116/
> So why not "smear" the DST<=> ST transitions by having four half hour transitions, once each quarter?
Very easy answer: Because it's already painful twice a year, and that would be making it even worse.
That answer is similar to the one for questions like "why do we have wide time zones that are somewhat inaccurate, rather than setting every clock based on the exact position of that clock?".
I’d be okay with every day having a different # of seconds. That way we slowly adjust with no discontinuity, but the nominal start time of school/work stays the same.
While this feels would be a disaster for other reasons like: “How many seconds are in an hour?” -> “Depends, no one knows.” … that’s already the case with our existing leap seconds.
> that’s already the case with our existing leap seconds.
Which we are also in the process of getting rid of.
If you present this as the alternative, I think there's a chance people might actually just get rid of it :)
I like where this is heading.
To that end, I'd like to propose 12 transitions. These should happen on the 16th day of every month, at precisely 05:14:33.
Let's take our seasonality more seriously.
Do the anti-DST people understand what they're advocating for?
Have a look at the sunset/sunrise graph for northern parts of the US https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/usa/seattle
In Seattle, without DST, sunrise happens at 4:11am. Because of DST, it's pushed back an hour later to a more reasonable 5:11am.
I am not awake at 4am, I have no use for sunlight at 4am, and I don't want the sun appearing that early. That hour of early sunlight is wasted for me. Plus with DST, the sun sets an hour later, at 9:11pm, a time I am actually awake, and I can actually go outside and use the extra sun.
With permanent DST, then in winter sunrise is at 9am in Seattle, which is far too late. I do not want to go to work in the dark, before sunrise. So I want standard time in winter, pushing sunrise earlier a more reasonable 8am.
In both situations (summer and winter), modifying the time via DST benefits me and gives me better use of sunlight.
Why should the clock be set to those arbitrary points? If you want sun in the morning, wake up later, it you want sun in the evening, wake up earlier.
If your issue is when work is scheduled, well businesses set their own hours, not the government.
> businesses set their own hours, not the government
In plenty of countries the government decided the opening hours of shops, restaurants and sometimes even offices. Labor laws and nighttime pay is coupled to the hours on the clock. Hours you can make noise is decided by government. Germany has the mid-day resting hour (Mittagsruhe).
Then we should have timezones based not just on longitude, but also latitude. So northerly locales can get some sleep in the spring/summer/fall.
> If your issue is when work is scheduled, well businesses set their own hours, not the government.
Ah, someone who doesn't have kids in school/camp/some random activity yet.
We know how this goes in China (one time zone, no daylight savings time). Coming home from the bar in Beijing with the sun showing up at 4 AM was quaint back then, but I'm definitely glad we have DST in the states.
Beijing is a bad example, because all of China actually has Beijing time. It gets confusing in Xinjang, which is 2 hours in the "wrong" timezone. But that doesn't mean that people start work at 8:00 in complete darkness, they just start at 10:00 wall time.
I think the talk of daylight savings time is a distraction, in the end it is arbitrary what the clock says. As a society we need to negotiate when (in celestial time) we want to do certain activities. For example, there are a lot of studies that school starts to early (relative to sunrise and the average bed time of teenagers). But the school starting time has to be decided politically. And reduced working hours or later start times have to be negotiated by trade unions, politics etc.. That's a lot more messy than just shifting wall time.
How many school kids are coming back from the bars at 4 AM in Beijing?
Working hours will not change.
I will fight tooth and nail against attempts to take one hour of daylight from me in the evenings for half of the year.
"Working hours will not change". Except they have in most countries where they have got rid of DST...
They have? Which countries are those?
Businesses don’t care how much sun you get
The government doesn't set the opening hours of businesses though either.
They do with DST.
Yeah, as someone who lives in Vermont, you could talk me into permanent DST. That would move the winter sunset from, say, 4:21pm to 5:21pm, which would mean I'd get enough twilight for a short walk after work. And Maine is even further east and north in the same time zone, so they have an even earlier sunset. On the other hand, Vermont's standard time sunrise around 7:20 is reasonable enough.
Parts of Vermont have traditionally coped with this by having an 8-4 workday instead of 9-5.
But the reality is that Vermont gets only about an hour of daylight outside working hours, depending on local customs. People have extremely strong preferences about how that hour gets split up.
Yeah, it’s insane. Along with that, any permanent gains in the morning will be lost as soon as it becomes normal. Businesses will just open that much earlier. And this study assumed bedtimes of 10pm, which is not the average anywhere on the planet from what I remember the last time I looked into this. The average is like past midnight.
More tyranny inflicted upon the rest of us by morning people
Hol up, don't fix time, there's a few guys in Seattle without curtains. Sorry everyone.
You can have your own household clock.
This just seems like a backwards justification. There is nothing wrong with a 9am sunrise or a 4:11am sunrise. People in Anchorage deal with both just fine.
> I am not awake at 4am, I have no use for sunlight at 4am
Most people aren’t awake at 5am either. Your use for the sun when there is an excess of it that goes well past your bedtime if you get up at 5am is irrelevant.
My work starts at 9am, therefore I wake up around 7am. My work start time does not adjust based on the seasons. Any sun before 7am is wasted for me.
Under DST, at summer solstice, the sun rises around 5am, giving me 2 hours of wasted sunlight.
Without DST, at summer solstice, the sun rises around 4am, giving me 3 hours of wasted sunlight.
I enjoy having additional hours of sunlight when I am awake, so for me I actually prefer having DST vs without it.
Similarly, in the wintertime, under permanent DST, sunrise is after 9am, and I don't want to drive to work in the dark.
You can still wake up earlier and enjoy your sunrise even if your working hours are fixed.
I still don't understand why you don't just wake up earlier.
It's not like without DST you have to work so late that you don't have enough hours for sleep, right?
I can see the DST argument for people where the shift kinda sorta works out, but many places (like Anchorage!) it's completely unnecessary. I live in Sweden and it's just the twice annually "ah shit the clock moved overnight."
4am sunrise seems ludicrously early to me, but then again, even a 5am sunrise is awfully early.
Ever lived at high latitude? It's normal.
You realize that you can change your own sleep patterns seasonally if you want to? Heck, you could do that even gradually instead of those abrupt 1 hour changes. That is your choice, we don't need to fiddle with clocks for the whole society for that.
Every few years these studies are published. Nothing changes. Unfortunately policy isn’t dictated by science, facts, or optimal outcomes for all.
This isn’t going to get fixed in my lifetime, and that’s sad. Countries have lost the ability to act.
Plenty of countries have moved away from DST. Over half who previously used it IIRC.
Please name some of these countries. Europe is stuck with this nonsense and there is no hope in sight despite yearly polls showing majority people being against it.
> Please name some of these countries
According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daylight_saving_time_by_countr... since 2000:
Queensland Australia, a single state moved away from it. It is glorious.
https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/australia/brisbane
Queensland Australia is relatively close to the equator, and the length of day does not change dramatically between summer and winter.
DST is intended for places at higher latitudes.
You've said this repeatedly, but it is largely not true.
Elaborate.
The intent of DST is to normalize variations in the time of sunrise between summer and winter.
Places closer to the equator have minimal in the time of sunrise between seasons. They don't need DST.
Higher latitudes have large variation (i.e. Seattle, where the time of sunrise shifts between 4am to 8am), so they benefit from DST.
Queensland may be, but Brisbane is not relatively close to the equator. Its 27 degrees. Tip of cape york is 10 degrees, thats a pretty big difference.
It can be dark in Brisbane and still light at my parents house near cape york.
No, it is intended for a small band of places where the latitude is big enough to make winter and summer daytime length significantly different, but not so different that DST does nothing. In Sweden, with DST, the sunrise is at 4am in summer and 8am in winter. Just set it so noon is actually noon.
> In Sweden, with DST, the sunrise is at 4am in summer and 8am in winter.
In Sweden, in summer without DST, sunrise in Stockholm would happen ~2:30 AM. In the current system, with DST, sunrise happens around 3:30 AM, an improvement.
In winter, if Sweden kept permanent DST (which is what many advocate for), sunrise in December would happen at around 9:45 AM. In the current system (shifting time back during winter), it happens around 8:45 AM, a more reasonable time.
You realize you're literally proving my point?
> Just set it so noon is actually noon.
Pretty meaningless to advocate for this, then every longitude would have its own timezone, defeating the purpose of timezones.
I really wonder about the methodology. The article didn't mention it.
Did they get several cities to participate?
It was tried 52 years ago, and no one actually liked it, so we went back to DST again:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent_time_observation_in_...
Possibly another example of the old Chesterton's Fence.
No, that’s describing permanent DST, which was tried and failed, not lack of DST. Most people in the world live without DST and it’s fine. (The article also mentions this.)
The majority of the planet do not live at higher latitudes, where implementing adjusted summer/winter hours actually makes sense.
Except it's not like Chesterton's fence, it was created at the edge of living memory for known reasons. If anything it's an example of the opposite effect, something like Chesterton's field, do we really need to build a wall here, it's been a field for a damn long time...
Of all the things that cause obesity and sleep loss, is an hour change twice a year really a major issue?
I don’t know, maybe someone should do a study on it.
It's an extra hour of potential outdoors activity before nightfall. Yes.
Do you think the average person is already spending the maximum amount of time outdoors to begin with?
“This stupid thing we do that is worse for society than the perceived upsides is only twice a year. Why not keep doing it anyway?”
My controversial idea: midnight should be where current 4AM is because 04:00 is the lowest point of human circadian rhythm. Currently we have nonsense like "1AM is technically a part of the next day but for all practical purposes it's still the previous day". Also, 24h clock should be the standard so that we can avoid discussions "is 12AM noon or midnight".
And the rest of the world people? would it be healthier? the doubt is striking me
I live in Western Australia. for 3 years we trialed DST from 2006 to 2009. It was a nightmare personally, I was a sysadmin at the time and enterprise management tools were expensive and crap so we had to roll out DST file changes across our fleet manually. And because the change to allow DST for our region was a rushed job we then had to roll back after the 3 year unsuccessful trial.
Honestly, it was super stressful at the time. And DST that doesn't exist doesn't bother you in the slightest. Every day ends and flows into the next like the last. But the stress of a clock change twice a year doesn't have to happen, it's a choice.
The US extended DST by 4 weeks in 2007. We managed that well-enough. We can manage a similarly-sweeping change again.
(Sorry about your nightmare. It was easy on the systems I took care of at that time.)
Are you Yanks seriously not going to get this sorted out before winter? BC has moved - can at least the rest of Cascadia get their asses in gear? Come on, California, I do not want to be dealing with a north-south time zone difference with my coworkers
Yes, we won't. It turns out that we're way too terrible at being rational way too much of the time.
For DST in particular: Even discussions where the participants manage to form something resembling a quorum to stop changing the clocks twice every year somehow manage to unilaterally get sucked into a seemingly-inescapable quagmire of differing opinions, wherein: The decision of whether to use standard time and stick with it or to stick with DST instead becomes an intractable impasse.
Accordingly, nothing ever gets done.
I have every expectation that I will be dead and buried before this issue is resolved.
We don’t really get much of anything sorted these days.
I think US states aren't allowed to switch unless the feds decide to allow it
US States aren't allowed to have permanent DST, but they can have permanent standard time.
Arizona doesn’t have it
Tough shit. I live on the eastern edge of Central Time, I don't want to be dealing with 3PM sunsets in December.
Then get BC to change it back
I really don't want the sunrise time to be 5:00 in the morning and still not have any daylight to do errands after work. I don't care what the reasons are, but if seasons change the sunset time, what's so wrong with changing it a bit more?
> the researchers estimate that permanent standard time would result in some 300,000 fewer people having suffered from a stroke and result in 2.6 million fewer people having obesity
That 2.6 million people are obese because of a 1h shorter change night in one Sunday a year is an extraordinary claim. I would love to understand how they got to this result.
"Study by people who hate daylight savings time and have great bias against it, suggests that..."
Assuming they don't get hit by a car walking to school.