First place to look when this sort of thing happens is pprune.org - lots of pilots on there, often with specific knowledge of the aircraft type and/or of the incident itself.
Hopefully someone can give a more informed comment. For me, it's the seats directly in-line with the first turbine, and a few seats back.
edit: Well, I hope we are beyond boohoo LLM based info now. Here is Fable 5 High's explanation, and I loosely verified it:
Simplified:
> I'd like to avoid seats in the rotor burst zone: the rows roughly in line with the plane of the engine's fan and turbine disks, plus a few rows fore and aft of that.
More details:
> The term you're looking for is the rotor burst zone — sometimes called the uncontained engine rotor failure (UERF) debris zone. That's the phrase an aerospace engineer or pilot would immediately recognize.
> Here's the physics behind it: the fan, compressor, and turbine disks in a jet engine spin at enormous speeds (turbine disks can exceed 10,000 RPM). If a disk or blade lets go and the containment case can't hold it, the fragments fly out tangentially — meaning they travel in the plane of rotation of that disk, perpendicular to the engine's axis. They don't spray forward or backward much; they carve out a relatively narrow band.
> FAA guidance (Advisory Circular 20-128A, which designers use to minimize hazards from these events) models the debris path as the plane of each rotor stage plus roughly ±15 degrees fore and aft of it. Since an engine has multiple rotor stages spread along its length, the combined hazard band along the fuselage is a few rows wide, centered roughly abeam the engines.
> A report in a Hungarian publication claims, "A passenger was sucked into the window by the change in air pressure, with the 61-year-old man's head sticking out of the plane. Witnesses say his wife grabbed him, which was the reason he wasn't pulled out of the plane by the lower air pressure outside." [translation by Google]
Extremely similar to Southwest flight 1380 which killed a person in the US after they were partially sucked out of a broken window from an engine failure.
Well, this isn’t very typical, I’d like to make that point.
Look, the windows not supposed to fall off, for a start. These things are built to rigorous aeronautical engineering standards — cardboard’s out, cardboard derivatives, no cellotape, no string. So chance in a million, really.
And to be clear, the plane that the window fell off was flown to safety. So there’s nothing out there but birds, air, wind and clouds… and the window that fell off.
"Low probability very high consequence situation has never happened to me, therefore I needn't do anything." -- someone who doesn't understand expectation in probability.
Would it be strange to not have any windows on a plane? You could put thin oled panels on the wall instead. Seems like that would be more structurally sound.
I suspect you'd lose the sense of depth that helps make the plane feel less small. There's also a safety factor for situational awareness; many carriers require shades to be open for the cabin crew to figure out the safest side to evacuate on in an emergency.
You could do something with mirrors, but the safety cards reference looking out the windows before opening the emergency doors, so I bet you need at least SOME.
I could see this being a safety issue if there’s a problem with the wing or engine and the panels fail, so zero visibility. Its why they ask you to open the window blinds during take off and landing
From https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cgk65knkyzdo
Media reports in Greece and Germany quoted passengers describing a loud bang followed by the window breaking and oxygen masks falling from the ceiling shortly after the Boeing 737 had taken off.
They believe the window was smashed by pieces of the jet's engine - although Ryanair has not commented on this.
I thought that the speed of the air moving outside of the plane had a bigger impact on the pressure imbalance that causes someone to be "sucked out" of plane. It appears that is a false belief, the inside/outside pressure difference is from the artificial pressurization of the internal cabin. I blame a high school physics teacher for the memorable "why does a soft top convertible poof out when driving fast?" question as a preamble to explaining bernoulli for my false assumption.
I learned about the artificial pressurization not too long ago. But until I read your comment, I assumed that in a case like that, the inside and outside pressures would balance shortly and the sucking would cease. Now it occurred to me that maybe the pressurization system will continue to try to compensate pressure in a situation where pressure can´t be stabilized due to a broken window, which would cause the sucking to go on. Not sure if that would be the case. Anyone knows what happens?
Look, it's cheap. You either get safety or low cost. If they introduced no-window flights for 1€ there will be many who will buy those flights. So there, stop whining, accept the shïte.
Ryanair has only ever lost a plane once, due to a bird strike with only some injuries, and they are one of biggest airlines by number of flights (if not the biggest).
Turns out plane accidents are expensive, and the reputation loss as well. Don't even need to lose the plane, just the plane being stuck on the ground is expensive (they are also one of the most timely airlines because of this). Really can not afford to have accidents!
First place to look when this sort of thing happens is pprune.org - lots of pilots on there, often with specific knowledge of the aircraft type and/or of the incident itself.
In this case: https://www.pprune.org/accidents-close-calls/672872-ryanair-...
Lesson learned for Ryanair leadership: charge more for seats not in range of debris from uncontained turbine failures.
Seriously though, as an aviation geek, I always avoid those seats when given a choice.
Seats near the engine are loud, so two birds, one stone.
Serious question: Which seats are the ones that are in range? Just in front of the wing, or just behind it?
Hopefully someone can give a more informed comment. For me, it's the seats directly in-line with the first turbine, and a few seats back.
edit: Well, I hope we are beyond boohoo LLM based info now. Here is Fable 5 High's explanation, and I loosely verified it:
Simplified:
> I'd like to avoid seats in the rotor burst zone: the rows roughly in line with the plane of the engine's fan and turbine disks, plus a few rows fore and aft of that.
More details:
> The term you're looking for is the rotor burst zone — sometimes called the uncontained engine rotor failure (UERF) debris zone. That's the phrase an aerospace engineer or pilot would immediately recognize.
> Here's the physics behind it: the fan, compressor, and turbine disks in a jet engine spin at enormous speeds (turbine disks can exceed 10,000 RPM). If a disk or blade lets go and the containment case can't hold it, the fragments fly out tangentially — meaning they travel in the plane of rotation of that disk, perpendicular to the engine's axis. They don't spray forward or backward much; they carve out a relatively narrow band.
> FAA guidance (Advisory Circular 20-128A, which designers use to minimize hazards from these events) models the debris path as the plane of each rotor stage plus roughly ±15 degrees fore and aft of it. Since an engine has multiple rotor stages spread along its length, the combined hazard band along the fuselage is a few rows wide, centered roughly abeam the engines.
Good photo of the broken window in Aviation Herald: https://avherald.com/h?article=53ba2a01&opt=0
More discussion in: Airliners.net: https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1510797&...
That photo ws in the main article as well.
> A report in a Hungarian publication claims, "A passenger was sucked into the window by the change in air pressure, with the 61-year-old man's head sticking out of the plane. Witnesses say his wife grabbed him, which was the reason he wasn't pulled out of the plane by the lower air pressure outside." [translation by Google]
Points for the wife!
(from https://www.pprune.org/accidents-close-calls/672872-ryanair-...)
Extremely similar to Southwest flight 1380 which killed a person in the US after they were partially sucked out of a broken window from an engine failure.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southwest_Airlines_Flight_1380
This would all be solved if the engines were out in front of the plane like podracers.
And both were Boeing 737s ... (albeit different variants)
Well, this isn’t very typical, I’d like to make that point.
Look, the windows not supposed to fall off, for a start. These things are built to rigorous aeronautical engineering standards — cardboard’s out, cardboard derivatives, no cellotape, no string. So chance in a million, really.
And to be clear, the plane that the window fell off was flown to safety. So there’s nothing out there but birds, air, wind and clouds… and the window that fell off.
The window didn't "fall off". In article's 1st paragraph:
"debris from a dramatic engine failure caused damage to the aircraft's window"
That's high-velocity pieces of metal. Hard to prevent that from shattering a window if engine housing didn't catch it.
How much stronger, thicker & heavier you want to make those windows? Costing how much more fuel? To save how many lives per year?
I'd think airplane builders (note: not airlines!) are more qualified to make that calculation than armchair safety 'experts'.
The (hilarious) reference: https://youtu.be/3m5qxZm_JqM
The plane was towed outside the atmosphere.
This is one reason to always be wearing your seat belt tightly when flying.
Because its a Ryanair flight?
Ryanair has a pretty high safety record, they fly modern, well maintained planes because their margins are lower and they make them up in volume.
:)
Common, it never happened to me. /s
"Low probability very high consequence situation has never happened to me, therefore I needn't do anything." -- someone who doesn't understand expectation in probability.
They even put a "/s" at the end of their comment...
I wonder if Ryanair is going to charge them for being oversized to fit through their designated window.
Window seat: €12.99
[delayed]
They will start charging extra for getting to not sit by a window.
The entire row is at risk:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_Air_Lines_Flight_1288
Would it be strange to not have any windows on a plane? You could put thin oled panels on the wall instead. Seems like that would be more structurally sound.
I suspect you'd lose the sense of depth that helps make the plane feel less small. There's also a safety factor for situational awareness; many carriers require shades to be open for the cabin crew to figure out the safest side to evacuate on in an emergency.
You could do something with mirrors, but the safety cards reference looking out the windows before opening the emergency doors, so I bet you need at least SOME.
I could see this being a safety issue if there’s a problem with the wing or engine and the panels fail, so zero visibility. Its why they ask you to open the window blinds during take off and landing
It's also so that rescue personnel can see into the plane in the event it crashes.
I like to be able to look out the window, especially when we hit rough air. Seeing the fixed external reference helps me, for whatever reason.
Presumably for the same reason looking out the windshield helps with car sickness.
From https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cgk65knkyzdo Media reports in Greece and Germany quoted passengers describing a loud bang followed by the window breaking and oxygen masks falling from the ceiling shortly after the Boeing 737 had taken off.
They believe the window was smashed by pieces of the jet's engine - although Ryanair has not commented on this.
Boeing 737
He was pushed, not sucked. Pressure never sucks.
I thought that the speed of the air moving outside of the plane had a bigger impact on the pressure imbalance that causes someone to be "sucked out" of plane. It appears that is a false belief, the inside/outside pressure difference is from the artificial pressurization of the internal cabin. I blame a high school physics teacher for the memorable "why does a soft top convertible poof out when driving fast?" question as a preamble to explaining bernoulli for my false assumption.
I learned about the artificial pressurization not too long ago. But until I read your comment, I assumed that in a case like that, the inside and outside pressures would balance shortly and the sucking would cease. Now it occurred to me that maybe the pressurization system will continue to try to compensate pressure in a situation where pressure can´t be stabilized due to a broken window, which would cause the sucking to go on. Not sure if that would be the case. Anyone knows what happens?
R.Y.A.N.A.I.R. — Remove Yourself And Never Ask If Refunded
£5 and we’ll drop you off at home before we land! Save the trip back from the airport.
SUCTION
[flagged]
[dead]
Look, it's cheap. You either get safety or low cost. If they introduced no-window flights for 1€ there will be many who will buy those flights. So there, stop whining, accept the shïte.
Ryanair has only ever lost a plane once, due to a bird strike with only some injuries, and they are one of biggest airlines by number of flights (if not the biggest).
Turns out plane accidents are expensive, and the reputation loss as well. Don't even need to lose the plane, just the plane being stuck on the ground is expensive (they are also one of the most timely airlines because of this). Really can not afford to have accidents!
Cheap, safe, fast. You can have any 2 out of the 3.