The article seems to be about arguing with your boss in _public_. Having a fight with anyone in public in a professional environment is pretty intense behaviour. Not saying I've never done it, but it's not usually productive. It takes a lot of skill to get things done your way without alienating people. We should always be careful of how we "debate" in a professional context. Discussion habits picked up on HN translate poorly to Slack.
Arguing with your boss in private, now that's a completely different deck of Magic cards. Totally helpful, productive behaviour if done respectfully and constructively. You're there to solve problems together, having differences of opinion is natural. Thrash it out between you in a 1:1, book time to engage and brainstorm.
Be nice, be prepared, find solutions that move things forward without bruising egos, try and get them to think it was their idea.
Importantly, you're coming to a decision in which they get the final say, because it's their team. Once a decision is made, after consultation, you just gotta roll with it. Don't bitch, or moan, or rub it in if things go wrong. Chain of command. One of these days you'll be there too.
If you keep on "losing" or finding yourself in constant conflict with your boss, that suggests a deeper problem. Jobs are like relationships, they've gotta work both ways. Maybe this isn't the right one for you (or them, but just as likely you).
Anyway. Never argue with your boss _in public_. Debate in private, come to a decision and move forward.
Never do that if you're working under a toxic boss, in which case arguing in public is better if at all but one should anyways be working hard to find a new boss!!!
Yeah. My takeaway was sure, on one hand, arguing with your boss isn't going to end well. On the other hand, if arguing with your boss wouldn't end well (meaning you have a well reasoned technical disagreement, not just being insubordinate) then your boss is a bad boss...
I found it pretty ridiculous. I've made a 30 year career "arguing" with bosses. It's literally why they pay me. If they are little dictators then they aren't worth helping.
I feel like the real takeaway should be "don't make a competition out of a technical discussion". A culture that doesn't allow openly debating technical decisions sounds like one I wouldn't want to be part of.
"I realize that my boss and I could have probably worked out some face-saving compromise behind closed doors before having any sort of public discussions."
Absolutely this. Nothing wrong with disagreeing, but don't have a screaming row with your boss in front of the team.
I don't know. I mean, "never argue" is not a good maxim, imo.
But sure, ultimately your role is to provide your opinion as an expert, but you should step aside if your manager decides otherwise after hearing you. I think it's also correct: you are responsible for the decisions you make (which is true for you and your manager too).
So I think the author should have softened the discussion rather than going for a full confrontation. The boss surely didn't react rationally, or didn't surface their reasoning properly.
But being able to argue with your superiors (and peers) "the right way" is one of the most important skills to have in the workplace imo.
I think there is a strong cultural effects to whether this is true.
I've worked in multinationals and I've noticed that in the US ( east coast in particular ) it's much more hierarchical - where arguing with your boss in public could be a firing offence.
> I've worked in multinationals and I've noticed that in the US ( east coast in particular ) it's much more hierarchical - where arguing with your boss in public could be a firing offence.
> This is less so in Europe.
On the other hand, in big German companies there often exist more hierarchy levels. In this sense, I would rather call German companies more hierarchical.
The difference is (also from your description) rather that in the USA, bosses often expect their underlings to be much more "ideologically aligned" to their principles [1], which they often don't state/disclose from beginning. Enforcing such an ideological alignment is much less accepted in big German companies (at least in the lower hierarchical levels).
---
[1] In German, there exists the word "[die] Linientreue" for this, which can literally translated to "line loyalty". Dictionaries give the translation "true to party principles", but I would claim that this "politically connotated" translation is rather restrictive.
> how could they trust me as a member of their team? I might turn on them next.
This is also why you shouldn't gossip negatively about anyone, and you shouldn't make jokes about employee termination. People will view you as a threat. The threat perception will become dislike and they won't even know why they dislike you, they just do. Then they will hallucinate that you're a hopeless poor performer whatever your performance actually is, because they've already emotionally decided that you're awful.
The title should be “Never argue with your boss disrespectfully”. In front of his boss nonetheless. Arguing with your boss is fine, just don’t throw tantrums.
I disagree with the final outcome that's just in private. If it's an open brainstorm to decide on solution, you don't have time to book the secret 1 to 1.
I think it's just respecting hierarchy, disagree, raise your concerns, if your boss overrules just accept it, you made your concerns known, they and the team heard of you, if they proceed anyways they accept the risk.
No point in forcing yourself to be the shot caller when it's not your job or responsibility to make the final decision.
Accepting the team consensus and respecting hierarchy is part of the game, unless you are a business owner, you are paid to do as told as an expert give your opinion. Nothing more you can do beyond that.
100%, don't argue with your boss. Sometimes, depending on how they phrased a statement or proposal, you can present contradictory facts but never claim to have the answer.
Either the boss wants to hear your opinion or they don't. You need to look at body language, tone and wording to decide. In any case, they must decide.
Disagreeing in front of other employees is especially risky... It can work in your favor sometimes, but only if it serves the boss... For example, you might be providing the boss with an opportunity to demonstrate humility over a topic which they don't pride themselves on. If the boss switches and agrees with you, can improve your image in front of other employees and the boss gets to look like they are a good listener and rational decision maker. Everyone wins.
It also rests heavily on the boss' personality. Some people always have to be right, else they hate you.
Have seen this myself in practise. Just like in this case it didnt end well. But this «lesson» so to speak is just the same concept in everyday life applied to work. You should generally never argue with authorities publically. It never ends well. Perhaps some free speech fanatics mean otherwise, but free speech doesn’t really exist.
> You should generally never argue with authorities publically. It never ends well. Perhaps some free speech fanatics mean otherwise, but free speech doesn’t really exist.
This is not so much about free speech (because if it was, the problem wouldn't exist so much in countries that have a different concept of free speech than the USA), but rather that a scientific education strongly nudges you into becoming a "truth-seeker", and in pursuit of this argue for your point.
This is why in particular geeks/nerds love to argue with their boss when they believe he isn't correct.
So, I rather fault employees that they look for employees with a university degree, while in reality they want employees that don't want to start scientific disputes with their both (i.e. exactly what the scientific education at a university drills you towards).
In East Asia, particularly in Korea, there is a term called 'ganeon' (諫言, remonstration). It refers to speaking up when a superior's approach is wrong, in order to correct it.
But does a East Asian Confucian perspective always require it? Not necessarily.
From the Confucian viewpoint, an organization is not simply an arena for individual logical debates. Everyone has their own role and position, and when those roles collapse, the order of the community collapses.
'A superior must decide like a superior. A subordinate must remonstrate and support like a subordinate.'
What the OP's post did was not just make the boss look wrong. It declared that the boss 'could not function as a boss.' That's why the colleagues felt fear. It wasn't 'technically correct.' It was 'that person can publicly destroy the team's hierarchy.'
In Confucian terms, this is called 'remonstration without propriety.'
Good remonstration usually involves speaking privately first, respecting the other person's social face, and presenting options while preserving the form that the superior is the decision-maker. Those options should include risks and alternatives, so that it leads toward the direction you want.
In other words, you start by acknowledging that the boss's point is valid, then frame your disagreement as a risk you are worried about, but you're concerned about certain risks. If you say it that way, team members will later remember that you warned them, and the boss can't avoid responsibility either.
Of course, the boss also needs to have the right 'virtue' for that position. They need to listen to why subordinates object, and have the ability to make technical judgments. Storming out of a meeting saying 'I don't need this shit' is not boss-like behavior, so in an East Asian perspective, both sides are at fault. But many would see the subordinate who shattered the other's face as more at fault.
And of course, human relationships don't always have a right answer. I don't always follow this myself either—I fight with clients every day.
>'A superior must decide like a superior. A subordinate must remonstrate and support like a subordinate.' Everyone has their own role and position, and when those roles collapse, the order of the community collapses.
Sometimes it's the plane that collapses:
“The Korean culture has two features—respect for seniority and age, and quite an authoritarian style,” said Thomas Kochan, a professor at the Sloan School of Management at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. “You put those two together, and you may get more one-way communication—and not a lot of it upward,” Kochan said. The Asiana pilots on Flight 214 apparently did not discuss their predicament, the Los Angeles Times reported, citing cockpit voice recordings. As a general point of reference about the Korean language, you speak to superiors and elders in an honorific form that requires more words and can be more oblique. Less, “Yo! You want water?”; and more, “It’s a warm day for a nice refreshment, no?” This may sound trivial. But put this in the context of a cockpit, where seconds and decision-making are crucial and you get an idea of how communication and culture matter."
"Nearing the end of the 1990s, Korean Air had more plane crashes than almost any other airline around the globe. Cockpit miscommunication has been a persistent factor in these accidents. For example, the Korean Air Flight 801 crash was attributed to the pilot’s decision to land despite the junior officer’s disagreement, evidence of high power distance — a culture that denotes a heavily hierarchical society. Gladwell argues that this innate behavior of deep reverence towards elders and superiors highly contributes to cockpit miscommunication, especially on planes designed to be flown by two equals. Unsurprisingly, it has been found that the safest airlines are often from countries whose cultures do not value strict hierarchies."
That's actually a valid point. In East Asian societies, there's a fundamental difficulty in directly challenging a superior. So it would be fair to say that in such cases, the organization's self-correcting mechanism fails to function.
In reality, if you take extreme assumptions about most situations, counterexamples are bound to appear. But the cases we usually talk about tend to be about 'boundary issues'. things that happen near a certain line.
Your example is actually a typical pathology of East Asian culture. The ideal is what I described, but when it doesn't work ideally, it leads to uncritical acceptance of a superior's orders
If you take extreme examples for any situation, there are many difficult points. Conversely, we can't say that extreme cases never occur. So it's more accurate to say that I'm speaking based on cases that fall within the general distribution.
You brought up a counterexample to my point, but that's actually a problem that frequently materializes in East Asian societies. I have no intention of denying that. But what I'm describing is the ideal theory.
As always, finding the balance is the difficult part.
Part of the problem with all this is the unquestioned validity of the idea of a "superior".
There are things that managers are good at and things that their staff are good at. For technical roles, a manager doesn't need to be superior to their staff when it comes to technical decisions - in fact if they are, it implies a problem.
Once you start viewing work as a collaborative exercise, a lot of these problems disappear.
A manager is the subordinate. Their entire role is to provide for the employees the things and support needed to get their jobs done. Corporations arent the military, there are no "superior's" except in the minds of the mentally and emotionally fragile who think they were put there to rule over others.
Steve Jobs famously said, "I don't hire smart people to tell them what to do. I hire them to tell me what to do". He didn't always live up to that but his point was valid.
There are two things here - Steve might well hire smart people to tell him what to do - but in the end Steve made the choices and drove them through.
Management is all about choices with limited information - there is rarely one clear and obvious route forward, but a strategy of following all routes simultaneously will lead to failure as there needs to be focus.
So somebody has to make that choice and then drive that focus through the organisation.
This can be very difficult when the choice isn't clear and obvious - as lots of smart people will have different views.
That's the art of management - you need to make the right choices most of the time. and when you've made the wrong one correct quickly, but you also need to be able to get the organisation to rally behind that choice, even if not everyone agrees.
The article seems to be about arguing with your boss in _public_. Having a fight with anyone in public in a professional environment is pretty intense behaviour. Not saying I've never done it, but it's not usually productive. It takes a lot of skill to get things done your way without alienating people. We should always be careful of how we "debate" in a professional context. Discussion habits picked up on HN translate poorly to Slack.
Arguing with your boss in private, now that's a completely different deck of Magic cards. Totally helpful, productive behaviour if done respectfully and constructively. You're there to solve problems together, having differences of opinion is natural. Thrash it out between you in a 1:1, book time to engage and brainstorm.
Be nice, be prepared, find solutions that move things forward without bruising egos, try and get them to think it was their idea.
Importantly, you're coming to a decision in which they get the final say, because it's their team. Once a decision is made, after consultation, you just gotta roll with it. Don't bitch, or moan, or rub it in if things go wrong. Chain of command. One of these days you'll be there too.
If you keep on "losing" or finding yourself in constant conflict with your boss, that suggests a deeper problem. Jobs are like relationships, they've gotta work both ways. Maybe this isn't the right one for you (or them, but just as likely you).
Anyway. Never argue with your boss _in public_. Debate in private, come to a decision and move forward.
>> Arguing with your boss in private
Never do that if you're working under a toxic boss, in which case arguing in public is better if at all but one should anyways be working hard to find a new boss!!!
> Don't bitch, or moan, or rub it in if things go wrong. Chain of command. One of these days you'll be there too.
No I don't think it's how it works at all. If you want to show value you should absolutely point out you were right.
If your boss is so fragile they can't take a healthy debate or discussion or stand to be challenged on anything then find a new boss.
Yeah. My takeaway was sure, on one hand, arguing with your boss isn't going to end well. On the other hand, if arguing with your boss wouldn't end well (meaning you have a well reasoned technical disagreement, not just being insubordinate) then your boss is a bad boss...
If finding a new boss was that easy, we wouldn't have people job hunting for months and getting 0 responses...
Did you read the article? It provided a pretty good argument against exactly this attitude.
I found it pretty ridiculous. I've made a 30 year career "arguing" with bosses. It's literally why they pay me. If they are little dictators then they aren't worth helping.
I didn't read the article, because I got two PR_CONNECT_RESET_ERRORs in a row, I don't know whose fault it is, but I blame the bosses.
I feel like the real takeaway should be "don't make a competition out of a technical discussion". A culture that doesn't allow openly debating technical decisions sounds like one I wouldn't want to be part of.
"I realize that my boss and I could have probably worked out some face-saving compromise behind closed doors before having any sort of public discussions."
Absolutely this. Nothing wrong with disagreeing, but don't have a screaming row with your boss in front of the team.
I don't know. I mean, "never argue" is not a good maxim, imo.
But sure, ultimately your role is to provide your opinion as an expert, but you should step aside if your manager decides otherwise after hearing you. I think it's also correct: you are responsible for the decisions you make (which is true for you and your manager too).
So I think the author should have softened the discussion rather than going for a full confrontation. The boss surely didn't react rationally, or didn't surface their reasoning properly.
But being able to argue with your superiors (and peers) "the right way" is one of the most important skills to have in the workplace imo.
I think there is a strong cultural effects to whether this is true.
I've worked in multinationals and I've noticed that in the US ( east coast in particular ) it's much more hierarchical - where arguing with your boss in public could be a firing offence.
This is less so in Europe.
> I've worked in multinationals and I've noticed that in the US ( east coast in particular ) it's much more hierarchical - where arguing with your boss in public could be a firing offence.
> This is less so in Europe.
On the other hand, in big German companies there often exist more hierarchy levels. In this sense, I would rather call German companies more hierarchical.
The difference is (also from your description) rather that in the USA, bosses often expect their underlings to be much more "ideologically aligned" to their principles [1], which they often don't state/disclose from beginning. Enforcing such an ideological alignment is much less accepted in big German companies (at least in the lower hierarchical levels).
---
[1] In German, there exists the word "[die] Linientreue" for this, which can literally translated to "line loyalty". Dictionaries give the translation "true to party principles", but I would claim that this "politically connotated" translation is rather restrictive.
> how could they trust me as a member of their team? I might turn on them next.
This is also why you shouldn't gossip negatively about anyone, and you shouldn't make jokes about employee termination. People will view you as a threat. The threat perception will become dislike and they won't even know why they dislike you, they just do. Then they will hallucinate that you're a hopeless poor performer whatever your performance actually is, because they've already emotionally decided that you're awful.
Seems to be very dependant on culture at the workplace.
Sure, I agree, for when I worried in for example Singapore, I would not agree for Scandinavia
I live in Sweden. They are really really really really overly sensitive about anything.
The being direct thing only applies when they can be mean to you, not when they did something wrong.
In a great display of irony, these comments are arguing hard and publicly against the conclusion
> In a great display of irony, these comments are arguing hard and publicly against the conclusion
There is no boss involved in the HN discussion. :-)
[delayed]
The title should be “Never argue with your boss disrespectfully”. In front of his boss nonetheless. Arguing with your boss is fine, just don’t throw tantrums.
I disagree with the final outcome that's just in private. If it's an open brainstorm to decide on solution, you don't have time to book the secret 1 to 1.
I think it's just respecting hierarchy, disagree, raise your concerns, if your boss overrules just accept it, you made your concerns known, they and the team heard of you, if they proceed anyways they accept the risk.
No point in forcing yourself to be the shot caller when it's not your job or responsibility to make the final decision.
Accepting the team consensus and respecting hierarchy is part of the game, unless you are a business owner, you are paid to do as told as an expert give your opinion. Nothing more you can do beyond that.
This hits close to home.
In academia arguing is sort of your job, or at least part of it.
So when a supervisor can't/won't understand their student's argument, the situation feels very futile.
Probably there's examples of constructive resolutions somewhere out there
That's because you are doing a play with a specific role and dialogs. That role and its script doesn't include arguments.
100%, don't argue with your boss. Sometimes, depending on how they phrased a statement or proposal, you can present contradictory facts but never claim to have the answer.
Either the boss wants to hear your opinion or they don't. You need to look at body language, tone and wording to decide. In any case, they must decide.
Disagreeing in front of other employees is especially risky... It can work in your favor sometimes, but only if it serves the boss... For example, you might be providing the boss with an opportunity to demonstrate humility over a topic which they don't pride themselves on. If the boss switches and agrees with you, can improve your image in front of other employees and the boss gets to look like they are a good listener and rational decision maker. Everyone wins.
It also rests heavily on the boss' personality. Some people always have to be right, else they hate you.
My DNS blocked this website because of the rule:
||righteousit.com^
HaGeZi Threat Intelligence Feeds - Medium version
Therefore sorry, no vote.
Have seen this myself in practise. Just like in this case it didnt end well. But this «lesson» so to speak is just the same concept in everyday life applied to work. You should generally never argue with authorities publically. It never ends well. Perhaps some free speech fanatics mean otherwise, but free speech doesn’t really exist.
> You should generally never argue with authorities publically. It never ends well. Perhaps some free speech fanatics mean otherwise, but free speech doesn’t really exist.
This is not so much about free speech (because if it was, the problem wouldn't exist so much in countries that have a different concept of free speech than the USA), but rather that a scientific education strongly nudges you into becoming a "truth-seeker", and in pursuit of this argue for your point.
This is why in particular geeks/nerds love to argue with their boss when they believe he isn't correct.
So, I rather fault employees that they look for employees with a university degree, while in reality they want employees that don't want to start scientific disputes with their both (i.e. exactly what the scientific education at a university drills you towards).
---
Addendum: In https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48918117 silentmafia writes down a related observation:
> In academia arguing is sort of your job, or at least part of it.
In East Asia, particularly in Korea, there is a term called 'ganeon' (諫言, remonstration). It refers to speaking up when a superior's approach is wrong, in order to correct it.
But does a East Asian Confucian perspective always require it? Not necessarily.
From the Confucian viewpoint, an organization is not simply an arena for individual logical debates. Everyone has their own role and position, and when those roles collapse, the order of the community collapses.
'A superior must decide like a superior. A subordinate must remonstrate and support like a subordinate.'
What the OP's post did was not just make the boss look wrong. It declared that the boss 'could not function as a boss.' That's why the colleagues felt fear. It wasn't 'technically correct.' It was 'that person can publicly destroy the team's hierarchy.'
In Confucian terms, this is called 'remonstration without propriety.'
Good remonstration usually involves speaking privately first, respecting the other person's social face, and presenting options while preserving the form that the superior is the decision-maker. Those options should include risks and alternatives, so that it leads toward the direction you want.
In other words, you start by acknowledging that the boss's point is valid, then frame your disagreement as a risk you are worried about, but you're concerned about certain risks. If you say it that way, team members will later remember that you warned them, and the boss can't avoid responsibility either.
Of course, the boss also needs to have the right 'virtue' for that position. They need to listen to why subordinates object, and have the ability to make technical judgments. Storming out of a meeting saying 'I don't need this shit' is not boss-like behavior, so in an East Asian perspective, both sides are at fault. But many would see the subordinate who shattered the other's face as more at fault.
And of course, human relationships don't always have a right answer. I don't always follow this myself either—I fight with clients every day.
>'A superior must decide like a superior. A subordinate must remonstrate and support like a subordinate.' Everyone has their own role and position, and when those roles collapse, the order of the community collapses.
Sometimes it's the plane that collapses:
“The Korean culture has two features—respect for seniority and age, and quite an authoritarian style,” said Thomas Kochan, a professor at the Sloan School of Management at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. “You put those two together, and you may get more one-way communication—and not a lot of it upward,” Kochan said. The Asiana pilots on Flight 214 apparently did not discuss their predicament, the Los Angeles Times reported, citing cockpit voice recordings. As a general point of reference about the Korean language, you speak to superiors and elders in an honorific form that requires more words and can be more oblique. Less, “Yo! You want water?”; and more, “It’s a warm day for a nice refreshment, no?” This may sound trivial. But put this in the context of a cockpit, where seconds and decision-making are crucial and you get an idea of how communication and culture matter."
"Nearing the end of the 1990s, Korean Air had more plane crashes than almost any other airline around the globe. Cockpit miscommunication has been a persistent factor in these accidents. For example, the Korean Air Flight 801 crash was attributed to the pilot’s decision to land despite the junior officer’s disagreement, evidence of high power distance — a culture that denotes a heavily hierarchical society. Gladwell argues that this innate behavior of deep reverence towards elders and superiors highly contributes to cockpit miscommunication, especially on planes designed to be flown by two equals. Unsurprisingly, it has been found that the safest airlines are often from countries whose cultures do not value strict hierarchies."
https://www.cnbc.com/2013/07/09/korean-culture-may-offer-clu...
https://leonogas.medium.com/thinking-beyond-cultural-legacy-...
That's actually a valid point. In East Asian societies, there's a fundamental difficulty in directly challenging a superior. So it would be fair to say that in such cases, the organization's self-correcting mechanism fails to function.
In reality, if you take extreme assumptions about most situations, counterexamples are bound to appear. But the cases we usually talk about tend to be about 'boundary issues'. things that happen near a certain line.
Your example is actually a typical pathology of East Asian culture. The ideal is what I described, but when it doesn't work ideally, it leads to uncritical acceptance of a superior's orders
If you take extreme examples for any situation, there are many difficult points. Conversely, we can't say that extreme cases never occur. So it's more accurate to say that I'm speaking based on cases that fall within the general distribution.
You brought up a counterexample to my point, but that's actually a problem that frequently materializes in East Asian societies. I have no intention of denying that. But what I'm describing is the ideal theory.
As always, finding the balance is the difficult part.
Part of the problem with all this is the unquestioned validity of the idea of a "superior".
There are things that managers are good at and things that their staff are good at. For technical roles, a manager doesn't need to be superior to their staff when it comes to technical decisions - in fact if they are, it implies a problem.
Once you start viewing work as a collaborative exercise, a lot of these problems disappear.
A manager is the subordinate. Their entire role is to provide for the employees the things and support needed to get their jobs done. Corporations arent the military, there are no "superior's" except in the minds of the mentally and emotionally fragile who think they were put there to rule over others.
Steve Jobs famously said, "I don't hire smart people to tell them what to do. I hire them to tell me what to do". He didn't always live up to that but his point was valid.
There are two things here - Steve might well hire smart people to tell him what to do - but in the end Steve made the choices and drove them through.
Management is all about choices with limited information - there is rarely one clear and obvious route forward, but a strategy of following all routes simultaneously will lead to failure as there needs to be focus.
So somebody has to make that choice and then drive that focus through the organisation.
This can be very difficult when the choice isn't clear and obvious - as lots of smart people will have different views.
That's the art of management - you need to make the right choices most of the time. and when you've made the wrong one correct quickly, but you also need to be able to get the organisation to rally behind that choice, even if not everyone agrees.
yet the salaries impose hierarchies..