I spent 2 weeks in the UK recently and they are light years ahead of the US in terms of veganism and cruelty free products. I was actually quite shocked about how many options the grocery stores had and how almost every restaurant had a vegan option, or even a vegan menu.
The trend in the US has been to hide the word ‘vegan’ from consumers and bury it in their website somewhere. Not so in the UK. Brands seem super happy about showing which products in their selection are vegan. No list of ‘secretly/accidentally vegan’ products over there, they happily let you know right in the packaging.
People there are generally more aware of veganism too. No need to explain what it is like I constantly do in the US. ‘Can vegans eat eggs?’ What part of ‘no animal products’ don’t you understand?
I think veganism in America went through a popular phase, then simply faded as a pop concept. Perhaps your experiences in the UK merely reflect that, there, it is just going through a temporary uptick of fad.
That would suggest a fundamental difference in practical ethics between the two cultures.
It sounds like people over there in America don’t do things because they enjoy doing them or because they’re convinced that those are the right things to do, but rather they do them to impress others or improve their social standing.
It doesn’t sound right to me, I mean a culture can’t be so totally obsessed with the self.
Right, but that would mean the „Don’t tread on me” motto is also a type of persona assumed (like veganism) by people who like being perceived as tough and unruly because that’s respected.
(I guess „persona” would be a better word for it than „the self”.)
I think you've pinpointed the reason, although unintentionally: the US is so focused on culture wars that people can't visibly follow a vegan diet without being attacked for it.
It's been everywhere for decades - that's not the point. It's fadishness that is what may be going on here: restaurants are the tip of the spear of new trends.
I wish this form of Veganism was more well-known. I know a few Vegans who went down a similar path and who were told by a few people they were no longer Vegan. They took the easier path and stopped calling themselves Vegans, which I thought was sad given their objectives when becoming Vegan were clear from the get-go.
I wish more Vegans were able to accept this form of spectrum that you are talking about. Food is quite a social thing.
JaidenAnimation has done a great video[0] summarizing something like this of her vegan journey and exactly this type of nuance as well, I highly recommend checking it out
Let me give you a personal example as well, I am Hindu and Milk is very very preferred where I live. Due to my taste preference, I dislike Milk but I am really expected to have something milk based so I like Yogurt.
Even just this small act of preference of yogurt rather than Milk which could seem pretty small has genuinely left my relatives asking many many questions and I am sometimes forced to drink milk when I go to people when I would prefer otherwise because of social pressure.
I can probably take vegan yogurt if I particularly want so but we take milk fresh from the milkman who owns the cow in their house. where I live, the way people treat animals in their house is a very ethical point of view, its basically like how pets are except they help in livelihood/income
So I have some sympathies to people who you are talking about. There is enough social pressure from the people around you.
More broadly speaking, Veganism might perhaps land better as a spectrum rather than a binary switch. It has a lot of things going for it which could help its future but at the same time, it gets a large amount of flack from a loud minority and bad clips
There is a concept that my maternal grandmother had that they would always having their own husbandry (cows/buffalos) within her village and yes, they didn't eat eggs as well.
My maternal grandfather was a teacher which was a really prestigious job at that time, the only reason that they had their own cows was because of the belief. Reflecting upon it now, I believe it to be a good faith belief, they took care of the animals as well in terms of personal care from what I've heard of stories growing up, my mother still remembers some of the cows/buffalos and their names and other things so that's nice to hear as well :)
I was kind of surprised when I traveled to NY and SF from Melbourne. I knew Melbourne was fairly up there in vego/vegan friendliness, but took it for granted that NY and SF would be a cakewalk. Hardly appalling, but there were times I could not eat anything on the menu at some places and I'm only vegetarian, and in many instances I had only a single option. Was a little strange.
(1) An inmate is not allowed (essentially, by the society) a specific diet dictated by his/her belief; and,
(2) A poor person cannot afford (essentially, because of the society) a nutritious and delicious meal dictated by his/her needs or wants.
What are the differences between them? Are there differences at all?
They didn't order a specific meal, they asked for specific items to be excluded from their meals. I'm often cooking for vegans, and it's really not that fricken difficult.
Doesn’t seem like these two guys were vegan for Instagram internet points or for following a trend. They’re not trying to game the system for steak, medium rare. Their dietary restrictions are part of a larger belief system — they’re vegans because it’s the only diet consistent with their beliefs about animal rights.
Irrespectively of my own personal opinion on ethical veganism, if it’s a sincerely held belief, it should be treated the same as, say, a Jewish inmate requesting to eat kosher, or a Muslim inmate requesting to eat halal. A prison sentence shouldn’t effectively force you to break with those beliefs.
I spent 2 weeks in the UK recently and they are light years ahead of the US in terms of veganism and cruelty free products. I was actually quite shocked about how many options the grocery stores had and how almost every restaurant had a vegan option, or even a vegan menu.
The trend in the US has been to hide the word ‘vegan’ from consumers and bury it in their website somewhere. Not so in the UK. Brands seem super happy about showing which products in their selection are vegan. No list of ‘secretly/accidentally vegan’ products over there, they happily let you know right in the packaging.
People there are generally more aware of veganism too. No need to explain what it is like I constantly do in the US. ‘Can vegans eat eggs?’ What part of ‘no animal products’ don’t you understand?
I think veganism in America went through a popular phase, then simply faded as a pop concept. Perhaps your experiences in the UK merely reflect that, there, it is just going through a temporary uptick of fad.
People have gotten sick of the constant virtue-signaling.
That would suggest a fundamental difference in practical ethics between the two cultures.
It sounds like people over there in America don’t do things because they enjoy doing them or because they’re convinced that those are the right things to do, but rather they do them to impress others or improve their social standing.
It doesn’t sound right to me, I mean a culture can’t be so totally obsessed with the self.
> It doesn’t sound right to me, I mean a culture can’t be so totally obsessed with the self.
One of our (the US) early political mottoes is "Don't Tread On Me" and it has a flag.
And, yes, we can be and to varying degrees, are. Which is why we can't get along with ourselves very well, much less everyone else.
We're tetchy.
Right, but that would mean the „Don’t tread on me” motto is also a type of persona assumed (like veganism) by people who like being perceived as tough and unruly because that’s respected.
(I guess „persona” would be a better word for it than „the self”.)
I think you've pinpointed the reason, although unintentionally: the US is so focused on culture wars that people can't visibly follow a vegan diet without being attacked for it.
And then they get un-sick of it. Fads come and go, constantly re-inventing themselves and getting rediscovered.
It's been there for decades.
It's been everywhere for decades - that's not the point. It's fadishness that is what may be going on here: restaurants are the tip of the spear of new trends.
That’s interesting. I wonder if that’s a byproduct of the strong Indian influences? I would imagine its popular there as well.
Hindu drink milk and eat cheese, butter, and honey. Not vegan.
I know vegans who consume dairy/eggs once they become responsible for the husbandry of those sources.
I wish this form of Veganism was more well-known. I know a few Vegans who went down a similar path and who were told by a few people they were no longer Vegan. They took the easier path and stopped calling themselves Vegans, which I thought was sad given their objectives when becoming Vegan were clear from the get-go.
I think it's often called ovo-lacto vegetarian. There are also pescetarians.
I wish more Vegans were able to accept this form of spectrum that you are talking about. Food is quite a social thing.
JaidenAnimation has done a great video[0] summarizing something like this of her vegan journey and exactly this type of nuance as well, I highly recommend checking it out
Let me give you a personal example as well, I am Hindu and Milk is very very preferred where I live. Due to my taste preference, I dislike Milk but I am really expected to have something milk based so I like Yogurt.
Even just this small act of preference of yogurt rather than Milk which could seem pretty small has genuinely left my relatives asking many many questions and I am sometimes forced to drink milk when I go to people when I would prefer otherwise because of social pressure.
I can probably take vegan yogurt if I particularly want so but we take milk fresh from the milkman who owns the cow in their house. where I live, the way people treat animals in their house is a very ethical point of view, its basically like how pets are except they help in livelihood/income
So I have some sympathies to people who you are talking about. There is enough social pressure from the people around you.
More broadly speaking, Veganism might perhaps land better as a spectrum rather than a binary switch. It has a lot of things going for it which could help its future but at the same time, it gets a large amount of flack from a loud minority and bad clips
[0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gKJ9mMPuIQ
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There is a concept that my maternal grandmother had that they would always having their own husbandry (cows/buffalos) within her village and yes, they didn't eat eggs as well.
My maternal grandfather was a teacher which was a really prestigious job at that time, the only reason that they had their own cows was because of the belief. Reflecting upon it now, I believe it to be a good faith belief, they took care of the animals as well in terms of personal care from what I've heard of stories growing up, my mother still remembers some of the cows/buffalos and their names and other things so that's nice to hear as well :)
Jains would be vegan though i assume?
I don't know any Jain well, but I believe they drink milk and fermentation products, but do not consume honey. Open to correction.
I was kind of surprised when I traveled to NY and SF from Melbourne. I knew Melbourne was fairly up there in vego/vegan friendliness, but took it for granted that NY and SF would be a cakewalk. Hardly appalling, but there were times I could not eat anything on the menu at some places and I'm only vegetarian, and in many instances I had only a single option. Was a little strange.
(1) An inmate is not allowed (essentially, by the society) a specific diet dictated by his/her belief; and, (2) A poor person cannot afford (essentially, because of the society) a nutritious and delicious meal dictated by his/her needs or wants.
What are the differences between them? Are there differences at all?
Good
What a ridiculous ruling. Why would a prison need to provide a chosen diet? Then from now on I just want medium rare steak.
They didn't order a specific meal, they asked for specific items to be excluded from their meals. I'm often cooking for vegans, and it's really not that fricken difficult.
Doesn’t seem like these two guys were vegan for Instagram internet points or for following a trend. They’re not trying to game the system for steak, medium rare. Their dietary restrictions are part of a larger belief system — they’re vegans because it’s the only diet consistent with their beliefs about animal rights.
Irrespectively of my own personal opinion on ethical veganism, if it’s a sincerely held belief, it should be treated the same as, say, a Jewish inmate requesting to eat kosher, or a Muslim inmate requesting to eat halal. A prison sentence shouldn’t effectively force you to break with those beliefs.
Prisons shouldn’t provide kosher or halal meals either. It’s a prison, not a hotel.
Or you have to state why their beliefs about wanting certain foods is valid, but my beliefs about wanting other certain foods is not.
They probably can't order tofu. It would be B12-fortified oatmeal or something like this.
I think you are being ridiculous here. Rare steak is expensive compared to rice and beans. And providing vegan meal is super easy.
What a ridiculous comment.
Do you hold any philosophical beliefs? If so, would you be willing to share them?