I’ve always struggled with sleep. A few things that helped me (in order of importance)
- go to bed and get up at the same time every day. Getting up is more important than going to bed.
- no phone in bed, and limit stimulating activities (intense video games, programming, planning the vacation etc) to 90 minutes before bed. I read during that time but TV, cleaning, music, whatever works.
- a bad nights sleep will happen, often a few nights in a row. Be ok with that (easier said than done, I did CBT for this). Instead of lying in bed restless get up and watch TV, or read.
- leave the house for 30 minutes every day.
- journal as often as possible. Ideally daily, but a few times a eeek. Don’t ever read it back but just write down your feelings and the things on your mind. Do good and bad.
- exercise every other day.
- no coffee after lunch, and never more than 3 in a morning.
It’s a marathon, not a sprint and overall I have way less bad nights than I did before, and I don’t beat myself up as much for the bad nights.
One of the unexpected impacts I experienced when going to zero cups per-day was that I suddenly started dreaming more often and more vividly. It was like how I remember sleep as a child, with nights full of weird and wonderful dreams, rather than only remembering one or two dreams a week as an adult.
I only had this effect when going completely zero caffeine, not when I cut down to one cup a day.
Unfortunately coffee is a vicious cycle, where I end up picking the habit back up on work trips. Before I know it I'm drinking a cup of coffee while writing a reply on HN about how great it was when I gave it up.
Incidentally, after being a heavy coffee drinker (5-10 cups per day for many years), I cut my coffee intake to zero. This happened around 3 years ago. At the same time, I started using earplugs every night. Pretty much since I started doing that, I dream several times a week. Previously I had dreams maybe once per month. I suspected that this dreaming was the effect of using earplugs, but now I wonder if it might be the caused by me not drinking coffee (for the curious, I replaced coffee with green tea).
Cutting coffee to just the morning definitely helped me.
My problem now is that if I think of anything vaguely interesting in the evening then my brain refuses to stop thinking about it. That and restless legs.
Evening if my main time for hobby projects so having them lead to disrupted sleep is really annoying. Any tips?
> Cutting coffee to just the morning definitely helped me.
I drink half a mug (~200 ml) at ~2PM. I drink black tea rest of the day. Used to drink 2L/day at some point (it was a controlled period which required that).
> My problem now is that if I think of anything vaguely interesting in the evening then my brain refuses to stop thinking about it.
Use a notebook to take notes or ooze it out from your brain and try to learn meditation maybe? I do both, and both helps a lot to me.
Also, if doing exercise is not a very good option, try yoga. Looks serene but makes your body work.
I don't have any severe sleep problems, but I can relate to this issue. I find reading fiction helps. It's kind of difficult to dream about an interesting problem or a project, so the way I perceive the problem is that my brain doesn't slip into a narrative free-associative state. But if I can get myself to think about something "dreamable" then it's a different story. A book works b/c you already need to engage your imagination quite a bit as you read anyway
Magnesium, L-Theanine, and vitamin d. Make a regular bed time for yourself, and stop looking at screens 30 minutes before that time. Regular is more importantly than early, I.e. 11:30 is passable but only if it's always 11:30.
Whenever I stop drinking coffee for a few days or even months, I find that it becomes harder to wake up. I seem to sleep a lot heavier, but in the morning it's difficult to open my eyes as they feel heavy.
It doesn't matter if I have 1 cup in the morning or drink coffee all day. As long as I have it in my system from the previous day, it's very easy to wake up the next day.
Agreed. This sounds like someone whose system is very out of balance and would benefit from a coffee detox (and significantly more sleep) of at least 2 months.
I'm sure it's different for everyone, but I can only tolerate a tiny amount of coffee now. Like brewing 6-10 grams of beans, once per morning. But even then, after a month or so, it definitely results in generally low energy, worse sleep etc... And I really don't like how it's the first thing that I MUST do when I wake up.
I ultimately have to detox, which I find takes few weeks. And then I'll feel great for a few months "sober".
But I really do love cofeee - I even roast it myself in small batches. So, I inevitably end up drinking it again and the cycle continues.
Since quitting caffeine 10 months ago I've found it difficult to fall asleep as I seem to have a lot more energy in the evenings. Also, decaf is probably impossible to get in a Swedish workplace, people give you a concerned stare whenever you ask for it.
Everyone's tolerance and ideal routine is different.
For me, it's:
- One cup of coffee in the morning, optional tea while it's still light out
- Sunlight exposure within a half hour of waking
- 10-15 minutes reading some fiction
- 10 minutes of meditation
Virtually guaranteed to yield a productive day with a good sleep at the end.
In the evening, both phone and overhead lights get turned off as much as two hours before bed. Reading lamps/spot lighting only. Any screens are dimmed.
What surprised me is that caffeine gets converted to other compounds that _also_ binds to the same receptors thus causing you to feel less tired. And that compound has its own half life. Now I’m just guessing, but it could be that one is more affected by one of the byproducts so to speak than the caffeine itself.
I want to get better sleep but can not maintain a proper schedule due to university, 2 days a week it's waking up at 8 AM and otherwise 10 AM/11 AM.
I usually have coffee at Morning and a light coffee at 5 PM, it generally helps to do more work because I feel like I want to sit and work. Otherwise I'd dopamine max or play a sport.
Any tips on improving sleep? (It's simply not possible to follow a strict schedule due to multiple deadlines of so many things)
Is there actually a good reason to be sleeping at 3-5am? You'll probably notice significant improvement in all areas of your life if you sleep at something like 10pm EVERY day and wake up at 7am. And get rid of coffee, and exercise regularly.
Interesting coincidence - I’ve been drinking only one cup of coffee in the morning for the past month or so.
Used to drink one in the morning and one immediately after lunch. Couldn’t really tell the difference in sleep quality and to be fair I’m waking up more frequently in the past 2 weeks, but I guess that has to do more with heat than anything else.
Listened to many podcasts trying to learn more about this and they all seem to argue that it’s actually more important when you drink coffee. If you get your last coffee right after lunch your body will have almost no caffeine circulating in the system by the end of the day and that will make you sleep better.
Well I think the key point is that caffeine has a half life of 6 or 7 hours in adults. So 4 coffees before 10am is worse than one coffee at 2pm. That's how I look at it anyway. Regardless, I limit myself to 2 cups before 8am. Now I notice even a late afternoon green tea wrecking my sleep. Can't believe I spent all those years drinking 5 cups well into the afternoon...
I started drinking decaf black instead of coffee for the past several years now, that seems to help the psychological ritual of drinking coffee in the morning to wake you up but not actually have (or have very small amounts of) caffeine.
Recently cut out cannabis, cbd, coffee and all alcohol and its shocking how different your sleep becomes. There needs to be more research done on stimulant free brains and my theory of how better our brains are at "taking the trash out" at night when not pumped full of quick/easy dopamine.
I was having 3-4 per day. Wasn't feeling so great. Decided for quality over quantity. Had just one cappuccino a week Sunday morning. Did that for several years. But then started a relationship with a coffee lover. Now have 2 in the morning which is as much caffeine as my prev 4. Yet I've had no ill effects.
Yes, I'm of the opinion that we ought to treat coffee like we do alcohol - once in a while, as a treat. No sane person would say that regular alcohol is a positive thing, even if they do it themselves. It's strange that coffee is treated differently.
Your Sunday morning ritual sounds very nice, especially if it's before or after sowmthing like a hike, bike ride etc.
Ps please dont come with studies about x glasses of wine a day. It's unequivocally a poison and shouldn't be consumed as a routine.
(I had a small glass of wine last night for the first time in weeks)
For me, load up on caffeine early is as efficient and doesn’t affect my sleep negatively. My routine consist of a cup of green tea at 8 am, cup of coffee at 9 am and a last cup of coffee at midday.
"For the experiment, I started by taking a day completely off coffee."
-----------
This is an anecdote, not an experiment. What's anecdotal evidence worth?
Yes, caffeine consumption should be appropriate and appropriately timed. Most people are well aware that you should not chug a litre of coffee before going to bed. If I were patient enough to read more of this blog I wouldn't be surprised if there's a story about the author's rediscovery of fire and the wheel.
I appreciate that everyone is having good conversations about their sleep and coffee intake, but this is a really low quality blog post to start them with. I guess we love talking about coffee and sleep just that much. Maybe we should just post a link to the wiki on caffeine periodically instead? Here you go!
Also high pollen count. I am much more sensitive to heat than my partner but she has allergies. We sort of alternate. Sleeping with AC all night has its own issues.
better coffee, better everything.
but definitly and with ferocious certainty, not more coffee.
more coffee is held in reserve for a power run, backed by protien loading, extra hydration and whatever else can help cushion the load, and is followed by some lazy down time to recover, hopefully squinting bleary eyed at a cheque and new number in my bank account and the sleep of the rightiously tired.
I love coffee. I always have. It has anti oxidant properties. Don't drink the crap coffee. Most Americans have no idea what good coffee is. They're as educated with coffee as they are with nutrition.
Just drink less of it if you must but enjoy it. Get good coffee. Avoid it after 3 PM if you want good sleep. I found a late night cup after a dinner with friends typically sets me right for the drive home and does not damage sleep. But between 3 and 9 PM it's not great for sleep.
Finally it's important to understand that caffeine does not give you energy. It only hides fatigue. If you have trouble sleeping then avoid caffeine. You can get good decaf options today. But they still contain approx a fifth of a regular cup's caffeine.
I’ve always struggled with sleep. A few things that helped me (in order of importance)
- go to bed and get up at the same time every day. Getting up is more important than going to bed.
- no phone in bed, and limit stimulating activities (intense video games, programming, planning the vacation etc) to 90 minutes before bed. I read during that time but TV, cleaning, music, whatever works.
- a bad nights sleep will happen, often a few nights in a row. Be ok with that (easier said than done, I did CBT for this). Instead of lying in bed restless get up and watch TV, or read.
- leave the house for 30 minutes every day.
- journal as often as possible. Ideally daily, but a few times a eeek. Don’t ever read it back but just write down your feelings and the things on your mind. Do good and bad.
- exercise every other day.
- no coffee after lunch, and never more than 3 in a morning.
It’s a marathon, not a sprint and overall I have way less bad nights than I did before, and I don’t beat myself up as much for the bad nights.
Huh, this'll probably do more than just improve sleep.
One of the unexpected impacts I experienced when going to zero cups per-day was that I suddenly started dreaming more often and more vividly. It was like how I remember sleep as a child, with nights full of weird and wonderful dreams, rather than only remembering one or two dreams a week as an adult.
I only had this effect when going completely zero caffeine, not when I cut down to one cup a day.
Unfortunately coffee is a vicious cycle, where I end up picking the habit back up on work trips. Before I know it I'm drinking a cup of coffee while writing a reply on HN about how great it was when I gave it up.
Oh, interesting, and I can relate!
Incidentally, after being a heavy coffee drinker (5-10 cups per day for many years), I cut my coffee intake to zero. This happened around 3 years ago. At the same time, I started using earplugs every night. Pretty much since I started doing that, I dream several times a week. Previously I had dreams maybe once per month. I suspected that this dreaming was the effect of using earplugs, but now I wonder if it might be the caused by me not drinking coffee (for the curious, I replaced coffee with green tea).
Cutting coffee to just the morning definitely helped me.
My problem now is that if I think of anything vaguely interesting in the evening then my brain refuses to stop thinking about it. That and restless legs.
Evening if my main time for hobby projects so having them lead to disrupted sleep is really annoying. Any tips?
> Cutting coffee to just the morning definitely helped me.
I drink half a mug (~200 ml) at ~2PM. I drink black tea rest of the day. Used to drink 2L/day at some point (it was a controlled period which required that).
> My problem now is that if I think of anything vaguely interesting in the evening then my brain refuses to stop thinking about it.
Use a notebook to take notes or ooze it out from your brain and try to learn meditation maybe? I do both, and both helps a lot to me.
Also, if doing exercise is not a very good option, try yoga. Looks serene but makes your body work.
Daily sports is the way, purges the body, rests the mind.
But not too late, otherwise you don’t sleep well.
I don't have any severe sleep problems, but I can relate to this issue. I find reading fiction helps. It's kind of difficult to dream about an interesting problem or a project, so the way I perceive the problem is that my brain doesn't slip into a narrative free-associative state. But if I can get myself to think about something "dreamable" then it's a different story. A book works b/c you already need to engage your imagination quite a bit as you read anyway
Magnesium, L-Theanine, and vitamin d. Make a regular bed time for yourself, and stop looking at screens 30 minutes before that time. Regular is more importantly than early, I.e. 11:30 is passable but only if it's always 11:30.
I always aim to stop doing anything with high cognitive load at least half an hour before getting ready for bed.
Not necessarily no screen time, but coding stops, and the remaining time is spent gaming or watching TV, or I go to bed early and read.
Reading a dead tree book or using an ereader? I read before sleeping on my iPhone. I just bought an ereader to hopefully avoid this and sleep better.
Wake up early and work on hobby projects in the morning. That's what I personally do sometimes.
magnesium glycinate (and/or a liquid IV or equivalent before bed) helped my restless legs
Meditate
Whenever I stop drinking coffee for a few days or even months, I find that it becomes harder to wake up. I seem to sleep a lot heavier, but in the morning it's difficult to open my eyes as they feel heavy.
It doesn't matter if I have 1 cup in the morning or drink coffee all day. As long as I have it in my system from the previous day, it's very easy to wake up the next day.
Could be catching up on long term sleep deficiency
Agreed. This sounds like someone whose system is very out of balance and would benefit from a coffee detox (and significantly more sleep) of at least 2 months.
I'm sure it's different for everyone, but I can only tolerate a tiny amount of coffee now. Like brewing 6-10 grams of beans, once per morning. But even then, after a month or so, it definitely results in generally low energy, worse sleep etc... And I really don't like how it's the first thing that I MUST do when I wake up.
I ultimately have to detox, which I find takes few weeks. And then I'll feel great for a few months "sober".
But I really do love cofeee - I even roast it myself in small batches. So, I inevitably end up drinking it again and the cycle continues.
Life is definitely better without it.
Since quitting caffeine 10 months ago I've found it difficult to fall asleep as I seem to have a lot more energy in the evenings. Also, decaf is probably impossible to get in a Swedish workplace, people give you a concerned stare whenever you ask for it.
Everyone's tolerance and ideal routine is different.
For me, it's:
- One cup of coffee in the morning, optional tea while it's still light out
- Sunlight exposure within a half hour of waking
- 10-15 minutes reading some fiction
- 10 minutes of meditation
Virtually guaranteed to yield a productive day with a good sleep at the end.
In the evening, both phone and overhead lights get turned off as much as two hours before bed. Reading lamps/spot lighting only. Any screens are dimmed.
What surprised me is that caffeine gets converted to other compounds that _also_ binds to the same receptors thus causing you to feel less tired. And that compound has its own half life. Now I’m just guessing, but it could be that one is more affected by one of the byproducts so to speak than the caffeine itself.
I want to get better sleep but can not maintain a proper schedule due to university, 2 days a week it's waking up at 8 AM and otherwise 10 AM/11 AM.
I usually have coffee at Morning and a light coffee at 5 PM, it generally helps to do more work because I feel like I want to sit and work. Otherwise I'd dopamine max or play a sport.
Any tips on improving sleep? (It's simply not possible to follow a strict schedule due to multiple deadlines of so many things)
Why does it have to be 10 AM otherwise? (i.e. why can't it be 8 AM every day?)
I also get up at 6 AM every day because I have to on some days.
Because I am usually sleeping at 3-5 AM and waking at 8 just becomes really tiring on those days and it is extremely hard to push through...
Is there actually a good reason to be sleeping at 3-5am? You'll probably notice significant improvement in all areas of your life if you sleep at something like 10pm EVERY day and wake up at 7am. And get rid of coffee, and exercise regularly.
Wake up at the same time every day.
For many people this might make a massive difference. But people are not equally sensitive to caffeine.
Interesting coincidence - I’ve been drinking only one cup of coffee in the morning for the past month or so.
Used to drink one in the morning and one immediately after lunch. Couldn’t really tell the difference in sleep quality and to be fair I’m waking up more frequently in the past 2 weeks, but I guess that has to do more with heat than anything else.
Listened to many podcasts trying to learn more about this and they all seem to argue that it’s actually more important when you drink coffee. If you get your last coffee right after lunch your body will have almost no caffeine circulating in the system by the end of the day and that will make you sleep better.
Well I think the key point is that caffeine has a half life of 6 or 7 hours in adults. So 4 coffees before 10am is worse than one coffee at 2pm. That's how I look at it anyway. Regardless, I limit myself to 2 cups before 8am. Now I notice even a late afternoon green tea wrecking my sleep. Can't believe I spent all those years drinking 5 cups well into the afternoon...
Yeah, 5 years ago I was drinking coffee at 10PM and I was sleeping without an issue. I’m pretty sure that would be a very big problem right now
> I spent all those years<…>
Sleep changes as we age, so it’s possible that you were “fine” before.
I started drinking decaf black instead of coffee for the past several years now, that seems to help the psychological ritual of drinking coffee in the morning to wake you up but not actually have (or have very small amounts of) caffeine.
Recently cut out cannabis, cbd, coffee and all alcohol and its shocking how different your sleep becomes. There needs to be more research done on stimulant free brains and my theory of how better our brains are at "taking the trash out" at night when not pumped full of quick/easy dopamine.
I was having 3-4 per day. Wasn't feeling so great. Decided for quality over quantity. Had just one cappuccino a week Sunday morning. Did that for several years. But then started a relationship with a coffee lover. Now have 2 in the morning which is as much caffeine as my prev 4. Yet I've had no ill effects.
Yes, I'm of the opinion that we ought to treat coffee like we do alcohol - once in a while, as a treat. No sane person would say that regular alcohol is a positive thing, even if they do it themselves. It's strange that coffee is treated differently.
Your Sunday morning ritual sounds very nice, especially if it's before or after sowmthing like a hike, bike ride etc.
Ps please dont come with studies about x glasses of wine a day. It's unequivocally a poison and shouldn't be consumed as a routine.
(I had a small glass of wine last night for the first time in weeks)
Previous discussion in 2024: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41140565
For me, load up on caffeine early is as efficient and doesn’t affect my sleep negatively. My routine consist of a cup of green tea at 8 am, cup of coffee at 9 am and a last cup of coffee at midday.
"For the experiment, I started by taking a day completely off coffee."
-----------
This is an anecdote, not an experiment. What's anecdotal evidence worth?
Yes, caffeine consumption should be appropriate and appropriately timed. Most people are well aware that you should not chug a litre of coffee before going to bed. If I were patient enough to read more of this blog I wouldn't be surprised if there's a story about the author's rediscovery of fire and the wheel.
I appreciate that everyone is having good conversations about their sleep and coffee intake, but this is a really low quality blog post to start them with. I guess we love talking about coffee and sleep just that much. Maybe we should just post a link to the wiki on caffeine periodically instead? Here you go!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine
I get sleepy after drinking coffee. and also energy drinks.
Anecdotally, I have heard people with ADHD reporting that caffeine calms them down. Maybe worth a shot?
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-venn-diagram-lif...
This is what I do when get heavy sleepy. 30min or 1 hour sleeping time is enough to stay conscious for next hours.
Right now we have 30 ºC at nighttime + 80% relative humidity (and no, no AC). I can assure you that coffee is the last of my problems.
Also high pollen count. I am much more sensitive to heat than my partner but she has allergies. We sort of alternate. Sleeping with AC all night has its own issues.
> Sleeping with AC all night has its own issues.
What are the issues sleeping with AC all night?
Dried up air (I love A/C regardless).
Does it dry up that much? I have an ikea smart thermometer that's in the flow of the AC and I haven't seen humidity drop below 40% even in summer
To some people below 60% is too dry
better coffee, better everything. but definitly and with ferocious certainty, not more coffee. more coffee is held in reserve for a power run, backed by protien loading, extra hydration and whatever else can help cushion the load, and is followed by some lazy down time to recover, hopefully squinting bleary eyed at a cheque and new number in my bank account and the sleep of the rightiously tired.
Over my dead body.
I love coffee. I always have. It has anti oxidant properties. Don't drink the crap coffee. Most Americans have no idea what good coffee is. They're as educated with coffee as they are with nutrition.
Just drink less of it if you must but enjoy it. Get good coffee. Avoid it after 3 PM if you want good sleep. I found a late night cup after a dinner with friends typically sets me right for the drive home and does not damage sleep. But between 3 and 9 PM it's not great for sleep.
Finally it's important to understand that caffeine does not give you energy. It only hides fatigue. If you have trouble sleeping then avoid caffeine. You can get good decaf options today. But they still contain approx a fifth of a regular cup's caffeine.
People just have different tolerance. Coffee strictly before noon works well for me.
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