I maintain a formally popular gaming website, and it used to have hundreds of legitimate requests per second. The load would be especially high during popular event times. So, it’s always been running on a dedicated server.
It also has an “online users” counter, which attempted to count real user sessions of unauthenticated user which still maintained a session, which lets them comment, or modify certain filter and display options. It never counted the Google bot.
Over the last few years this counter went from 100-200 users online to thousands. I have been very hands-off with it for many years, doing minor upgrades and backups. However, the site also has gotten quite slow, these sessions were obviously impacting it. So, I finally investigated these crawlers, and yes, it turns out it’s an insane amount of traffic that is entirely artificial, the site has just a handful of real users, and thousands of these crawling sessions that actually try to do everything they can, click every button. It doesn’t help that sort and search were implemented using GET links.
I fixed the counter to exclude the crawlers, but I have a bit of a dilemma. I don’t want to stop the bots from updating their knowledge based on all the content.
The best solution I could find is the new CloudFlare feature where they might charge the crawlers for every request, or otherwise block them. I think that’s a fantastic idea for the internet, at large. I signed up for the beta access, but haven’t heard from them again. I do think it’s unfortunate that this requires CloudFlare and the middleman.
Overall, it seems like the LLM are really straining the internet economy, the openness of it. Email spam used to be the worst, but the organized trillionaire labs sucking up the entire internet is going to break something if we don’t preempt them better.
It’s too bad the copyright and public internet systems are not acting quick enough. And I think there is no reason to act like this race really has to be at such a breakneck speed.
High Anubis difficulty is annoying the hell out of me for several sites. And it's starting to not block LLM bots anymore?
> 33% are now solving the math and getting through to the main site — because apparently what we have to offer is worth spending a ton of cycles to calculate the Anubis challenge.
This is bad enough that I'm going to stop serving cgit. I've been doing cvsweb, then subversion, then cgit over my home server for many many years and for the first time ever this is annoying my own bw usage.
It's ridiculous also how you ban an IP then 1 second later another one picks up from where the first one left on.
Given the nature of git, wouldn't all that HTML be highly cacheable? I get that's not free either, but it's got to be a lot less intensive than having cgit generate it every single time.
Or, html generation could be very, very fast in the first place. For example, serving static files is usually just as fast as a reverse-proxy cache.
Interestingly enough, cgit bills itself as "a hyperfast web frontend for git repositories" [0]. Alas, nothing is fast enough for the bots, it would appear.
That was my first thought, varnish (vinyl these days) in front of the website should dramatically reduce this as the git repo should be practically static for most of the content.
But there are "cubic bazillions" of possible URLs that are being requested. Even if they boil down to "only" some millions actual commits, their rendered HTMLs are all different.
Yes, this is very difficult to solve for sites with many URL variations, like git repos and heavily threaded forums. Your cache is always full, but the hit ratio is abysmal.
i wonder what they're all up to. i imagine some are scraping datasets for pre-training, others are probably real-time scrapers looking for security bugs, even more still are agents working on coding tasks and looking at the kernel. also interesting to think about solutions: does everything need to be optimized now for weird access patterns that proliferated ai creates? do the ais need to have behavior trained in to be better netizens? is this the end of anonymous browsing and the beginning of an era where one has to attach an identity to all requests? or the end of community hosted free information services more broadly?
> So, you'd think that something that pretends to be “Artificial Intelligence” would use the most efficient way of using our data for training purposes, right? Clone the repos, walk every commit. Done.
If repos like this were 10%+ of what they crawled, having a special case for clone-able repos would be smart, but if you're crawling everything, you're not going to do an efficiency tweak for each special case that has a more parse-able option.
I guess GitHub is in a similar bunch of sources, it should be also more efficient to crawl by cloning.
Anyway, isn’t it the whole sales pitch that it generates tailored solutions fast?
I've been noticing page views in the past several months with a much wider span of origin on my Blogger stats. Before I would get a few from several countries, but now I am getting views from tiny countries and obscure or outdated browsers and operating systems, which leads me to think scrapers could be using VPN services in various countries along with header anonymizers that mask the device that they are using.
Yes, but the article (not to call you out - I just think it's a very important point!) points out that this type of throttling would not be effective:
> Suddenly, the crawlers were coming from millions of random residential or mobile IPs, all pretending to be random modern browsers. An IP like that would make 4-5 requests and then never show up in the logs again. There was no point in banning them, because by the time you figured out that they were bots, they were already done with you. You just needlessly ballooned your firewall ruleset by adding IPs that would never be back.
Without something like cookies (which are almost certainly tossed after the IP is rotated) or some other persistent identifier, you are stuck have to apply mitigations that scale with the load you're encountering, which means longer challenges for everyone or degraded functionality, like removing some of the fancier cgit features.
Because they're crawling a billion webpages, only a tiny fraction of which can be git cloned, and configuring a special case just for that tiny fraction isn't worth the effort (of the crawlers).
It feels inevitable that many systems will have to go to a login/trusted ip source type system. Its just not feasible to continue to operate with 99% of your traffic being fake.
I maintain a formally popular gaming website, and it used to have hundreds of legitimate requests per second. The load would be especially high during popular event times. So, it’s always been running on a dedicated server.
It also has an “online users” counter, which attempted to count real user sessions of unauthenticated user which still maintained a session, which lets them comment, or modify certain filter and display options. It never counted the Google bot.
Over the last few years this counter went from 100-200 users online to thousands. I have been very hands-off with it for many years, doing minor upgrades and backups. However, the site also has gotten quite slow, these sessions were obviously impacting it. So, I finally investigated these crawlers, and yes, it turns out it’s an insane amount of traffic that is entirely artificial, the site has just a handful of real users, and thousands of these crawling sessions that actually try to do everything they can, click every button. It doesn’t help that sort and search were implemented using GET links.
I fixed the counter to exclude the crawlers, but I have a bit of a dilemma. I don’t want to stop the bots from updating their knowledge based on all the content.
The best solution I could find is the new CloudFlare feature where they might charge the crawlers for every request, or otherwise block them. I think that’s a fantastic idea for the internet, at large. I signed up for the beta access, but haven’t heard from them again. I do think it’s unfortunate that this requires CloudFlare and the middleman.
Overall, it seems like the LLM are really straining the internet economy, the openness of it. Email spam used to be the worst, but the organized trillionaire labs sucking up the entire internet is going to break something if we don’t preempt them better.
It’s too bad the copyright and public internet systems are not acting quick enough. And I think there is no reason to act like this race really has to be at such a breakneck speed.
> And I think there is no reason to act like this race really has to be at such a breakneck speed.
I would promote this idea to all of my competitors. Nah mate, you don't have to ask her out right now. You can wait until next week ;)
Anyway, silver linings, looks like we're finally going to get widely adopted infra for microtransactions.
https://web.archive.org/web/20030202042510/http://www.openp2...
What is "formally popular"?
High Anubis difficulty is annoying the hell out of me for several sites. And it's starting to not block LLM bots anymore?
> 33% are now solving the math and getting through to the main site — because apparently what we have to offer is worth spending a ton of cycles to calculate the Anubis challenge.
This is bad enough that I'm going to stop serving cgit. I've been doing cvsweb, then subversion, then cgit over my home server for many many years and for the first time ever this is annoying my own bw usage.
It's ridiculous also how you ban an IP then 1 second later another one picks up from where the first one left on.
Given the nature of git, wouldn't all that HTML be highly cacheable? I get that's not free either, but it's got to be a lot less intensive than having cgit generate it every single time.
Or, html generation could be very, very fast in the first place. For example, serving static files is usually just as fast as a reverse-proxy cache.
Interestingly enough, cgit bills itself as "a hyperfast web frontend for git repositories" [0]. Alas, nothing is fast enough for the bots, it would appear.
[0] https://git.zx2c4.com/cgit/about/
That was my first thought, varnish (vinyl these days) in front of the website should dramatically reduce this as the git repo should be practically static for most of the content.
But there are "cubic bazillions" of possible URLs that are being requested. Even if they boil down to "only" some millions actual commits, their rendered HTMLs are all different.
Yes, this is very difficult to solve for sites with many URL variations, like git repos and heavily threaded forums. Your cache is always full, but the hit ratio is abysmal.
The cache gets evicted between the times the old commits are revisited.
i wonder what they're all up to. i imagine some are scraping datasets for pre-training, others are probably real-time scrapers looking for security bugs, even more still are agents working on coding tasks and looking at the kernel. also interesting to think about solutions: does everything need to be optimized now for weird access patterns that proliferated ai creates? do the ais need to have behavior trained in to be better netizens? is this the end of anonymous browsing and the beginning of an era where one has to attach an identity to all requests? or the end of community hosted free information services more broadly?
> So, you'd think that something that pretends to be “Artificial Intelligence” would use the most efficient way of using our data for training purposes, right? Clone the repos, walk every commit. Done.
If repos like this were 10%+ of what they crawled, having a special case for clone-able repos would be smart, but if you're crawling everything, you're not going to do an efficiency tweak for each special case that has a more parse-able option.
I guess GitHub is in a similar bunch of sources, it should be also more efficient to crawl by cloning. Anyway, isn’t it the whole sales pitch that it generates tailored solutions fast?
> Training an LLM on content produced by the LLM gives it the equivalent of a digital prion disease
Is it foolish of me to have expected more from a blog post on kernel.org?
How expensive would AI access be if every user paid their fair share instead of shoving it on the people doing the actual work?
You mean shoving it onto the investors?
I've been noticing page views in the past several months with a much wider span of origin on my Blogger stats. Before I would get a few from several countries, but now I am getting views from tiny countries and obscure or outdated browsers and operating systems, which leads me to think scrapers could be using VPN services in various countries along with header anonymizers that mask the device that they are using.
Extensions like ModHeader, BrowserMask do this: https://github.com/apify/crawlee-python
https://github.com/mthcht/Masquerade-Spoofer
Great for AI scrapers, bad for hosters and everyone else.
couldn't you have anubis on a dynamic difficulty? ie if a ip requests more than 1k pages per day +1 the difficulty ?
Yes, but the article (not to call you out - I just think it's a very important point!) points out that this type of throttling would not be effective:
> Suddenly, the crawlers were coming from millions of random residential or mobile IPs, all pretending to be random modern browsers. An IP like that would make 4-5 requests and then never show up in the logs again. There was no point in banning them, because by the time you figured out that they were bots, they were already done with you. You just needlessly ballooned your firewall ruleset by adding IPs that would never be back.
Without something like cookies (which are almost certainly tossed after the IP is rotated) or some other persistent identifier, you are stuck have to apply mitigations that scale with the load you're encountering, which means longer challenges for everyone or degraded functionality, like removing some of the fancier cgit features.
But why don't they just git clone?
Because they're crawling a billion webpages, only a tiny fraction of which can be git cloned, and configuring a special case just for that tiny fraction isn't worth the effort (of the crawlers).
Because the crawlers dont care, they are the internets parasites. Their creators care nothing for people or systems downstream of their greed.
It feels inevitable that many systems will have to go to a login/trusted ip source type system. Its just not feasible to continue to operate with 99% of your traffic being fake.
Off-topic, but anyone with which he did the plots?
or this: https://matplotlib.org/stable/gallery/showcase/xkcd.html
looks like this https://github.com/rfonseca/xkcd-gnuplot
Thanks, and, yes, I don't write with LLMs, as seen above.