I have been at one restaurant that had a QR code to view the menu, although they did provide a iPad to any customer who needed it. (At the time, I was with someone else who had their own iPad.) It was not very good food (and badly managed) so I do not intend to return there in future.
If you do not want to print the menu in multiple paper copies, then you might consider a single epaper display somewhere that the customers can easily see (anyone with a camera or a camera phone can take a picture; someone with pencil and paper might copy it out by hand).
I've still never had a smartphone (technically my flip phone, a Kyocera Dura, is an android device, but it can't install apps so I'll consider it suitably "dumb")
Occasionally I need to tote along a tablet because several places (some MLB venues, for one thing) will either require a smartphone, or impose a severe surcharge for the convenience of not using it.
Anyway, I really regret that we didn't impose dumbphone protection laws back when we had a large enough bloc of seniors that didn't "upgrade" to a smartphone yet
Restaurants have thin enough margins already. They aren't turning away a customer for not bringing a phone. There's one tiny burger place just around the corner from me that's delivery/pickup only, not even a QR code, but they have a sign outside saying 10€ combos and they're 15€ on the website... I just asked them. They have very good halloumi burgers and perfectly cooked fries. They were happy to accept my cash, too.
I certainly would, unless it was something I was doing for someone else's sake (like a birthday dinner for someone). Why would I do business with a restaurant that can't be bothered to provide a good experience for customers?
Depending on what type of computer (if not smartphone) you have at hand, you can probably use a search engine to find the same menu. Or ask somebody at your table. Or ask the server. Or point at somebody else's food and say you want what they're having. Or eschew the menu entirely and ask to be surprised. Chef's choice can be fun.
Or leave yeah, I think that's valid. TFA is predicated on the notion of pretty-much-lying to people by telling them you don't have a smartphone even if you do. Leaving a restaurant if you can't find a menu seems like it'd be on similar ideological footing.
The idea is you shouldn't have to have any sort of computer on your person to participate in public life. If a proper eat-in restaurant can't maintain a paper menu then it's an indication of the level of service that's sure to follow.
Perhaps that's the grandparent commenter's idea but I don't think it's the point the article is making:
> So, seriously, I do really like the smartphone idea. It’s just that I don’t have any browser or "social" app on it. And I don’t want anything else than what I have.
> I wish I could say it is all I have, that I’m a true minimalist.
He defines true minimalism as having an _ideologically conformant_ computer, not no computer at all.
I need it too for MFA, for instance one local university required it. On another university I can just use a yubikey. That is more convenient since it is small; the tablet is not so handy. I dislike the push towards forcing everyone to have a smartphone, or become a second class citizen in the country.
i bought my first smartphone this year. when traveling I was carrying the android tablet half of the time in my backpack, and even at home more and more you need apps for everything (e.g. lockersat club, gym entry, supermarket loyalty card, etc).
i just gave up. grapheneos + olauncher give me a minimal and open source enough experience to make it somewhat tolerable, but it makes me sad that as a society we've come to expect that you are carrying a computer with you at all times to exist.
I do have a smartphone, but I don't seem to feel the pain the author feels about being inundated by QR codes and apps. Maybe I have all the apps I need already? Maybe I just don't mind having an app on my phone because I know that I can set it to basically never bother me. Most of my apps have notifications silenced. My home screen is empty, save the handful of apps I do want. And for the little bit of effort I put forth to tweak the device to my liking, I get the world in my pocket - a full browser, every song I've ever liked, every picture I've ever taken, all my scanned documents, etc - not to mention all my loved ones available at a moment's notice. My battery lasts long enough, and when it doesn't, it's because I was using the device. I just don't understand the complaint I guess. Make the device work for you, not the other way around?
I don't think he's complaining about having a lot of apps, or the ability to have a lot of apps. He's complaining about being required to use apps for hundreds of small interactions every day that don't, or shouldn't, require an app. And he's correct. Companies are doing this not because they think it's better, but because they believe that if they can worm their way onto your device, and insert their cloud service (even if it's initially free), that they can turn you into a more reliable and/or recurring revenue stream in the future, either because you feel locked into their ecosystem so you will buy other products from their lineup, or, even better, buy a subscription service.
Depending on where I park in the city, I have to install a different parking app. And create an account, and pay with a credit card via the app. There was a time, however brief, when some of the parking meters just accepted credit cards, or get this, coins.
This is what happens when a large number of people claim they "don't seem to feel the pain" and comply with the data broker's wishes. We all get stuck in the data brokers web, or we have to break the law to park on a public street.
100% this, and it is annoying. I pay for street parking (i'm ok with it, it's a tax base for the city I live in), but i'm not Ok with having to pay .50 per transaction. And i used to carry a stack of quarters in my car. And then you add all the vendors with their proprietary apps in this space, the tracking of the data of what car parked where, when, etc.
I'm suprised they were allowed to remove the coins from the meters, but they were. So people who don't have a premiere phone, because the apps don't work on your old crappy phone, or people who don't have a credit card to feed into the app on the phone, are SOL.
I think the problem is that things that once did not require and realistically shouldn't require apps (like the toilet example - which I can't tell if hyperbole or not) are now "app enabled" by default.
Sure, you have taken the time to curate your mobile experience and silence things but a majority of the people in the world don't do that as it takes more time and effort than they are willing or able to give (why silence things or uninstall apps when you can browse instagram or tiktok for 2 hours). These people are the most affected but don't often know how inundated they are.
The example could be hyperbole, but Home Depot and Lowes both offer a wide selection of "smart toilets" and if we think "oh this is just a weird niche thing that will never catch on" let's remember how difficult it is to not purchase a Smart TV when television shopping these days.
The whole point of the label "smart" is to fill in vague positive thoughts for the customary "..." that comes right before "profit" in the standard /. business plan. And the real problem is that it works.
You're missing the point entirely. You're opting in and enjoying it, great! Do you really believe you chose to opt in? The author is saying that opting out is extremely painful and that THAT is wrong. We should all get to choose if we want to walk around with a smart phone or not. It's now basically required to invest in a privacy destroying device that makes huge corporations that much richer to function in society.
You don't understand why someone would complain about that?
Yes, in that I am of free enough will to choose not to use something or do my homework before making purchases. I'm also not saying that you shouldn't be able to walk around without a smartphone, but choices, like speech, aren't without consequence. If you want to pay for something at a location that only takes cash, but you won't carry cash because it's easily stolen or lost, that doesn't mean they have to accommodate you, it means you're not eating their food. Should they take card? Sure, and you should be able to walk around cashless, but the same choice you get to make, they do as well.
You missed out the parts about "extremely painful" and "basically required", as well as "privacy destroying" and "makes huge corporations that much richer".
So, for the analogy, let's say lots and lots of businesses and public utilities are cash only, and carrying the cash exploits you for Google's profit somehow. Or we could stick to the idea that carrying cash is a theft risk, but let's say the businesses are indirectly in cahoots with the pickpockets through a chain of corruption and that's why everybody requires you to carry cash and be vulnerable.
I have a motorola smartphone. I don't have google play installed. I mainly use obtainium for app installation. Its a bare bones phone and it drives my business partner crazy.
"Just log into our instagram account and. . .right, you don't have insta installed on your phone."
"Can you log into our scheduling app and. . . right, you don't have that installed on your phone either."
Some of the more painful things you have to deal with:
- Chromite and Iron Fox filtering out a ton of stuff so a lot of sites simply don't work
- Organic maps is slow and hard to use compared to Google and Apple maps.
- Fairmail that blocks a ton of images and other code - which is good, but had to get used to seeing everything blocked visually.
- Not having any banking apps on my phone. Every time my son needs a few bucks in his account, my wife has to do it if we're out.
- The open source weather apps are not very accurate. Usually within a few degrees, and the radar is hit or miss.
Kind of odd that we have to try so hard to ensure our own privacy. I'm up for a new phone this Fall so I'll most likely be moving to a newer Pixel and will get Lineage or Graphene installed on it.
> - Not having any banking apps on my phone. Every time my son needs a few bucks in his account, my wife has to do it if we're out.
This is the most tyrannical things about smart phones -- banking apps. I get it, the bank wants to ensure the platform is not a liability. But it forces most of us to use one of the only two "trusted" mobile providers on earth: Google or Apple, both of which are American (and I'm an American.) The only alternative is a browser which comes with its own set of problems.
In my experience in the U.S., I can manage my accounts at various banks and brokerages just as well from the website as from a mobile app. I’m ok with them restricting how their apps can be used as long as the browser remains an option. The requirement to use an app for all account management (or for authenticating to a website) seems to be mostly a European phenomenon.
Like I said, its something that's annoying, but this is the cost of keeping my privacy. My wife uses Apple for all her stuff and she understands. By any account I wouldn't say this is a "burden" per se. She opens the app, hits a few buttons and hits sends. Hardly something that I would consider a burden.
It's fairly technical and it is very configurable (so it can take some fussing to get it set up the way you like), but it pulls data directly from NWS and has been very accurate for my family.
To each their own, but this seems more like purposefully handicapping yourself (and annoying those around you) over a very much false sense of privacy or “disconnection”. If it works for you then kudos, but I personally see this as an increasingly futile exercise with very little to no positive net return.
Business requires sacrifice. I'd get a separate business phone for your business's Instagram and your business's Facebook and so on. You have to have Instagram the same way you have to have an accountant - hold your nose and do it anyway.
I get the arguments against it but what i really want is people having some easy digital way to interface with the tech around them. Having a small on person computer be a client to things in your life seems like a really cool thing to aim for. It just sucks that corporate greed and a breakdown of trust between users and builders has lead to it being an annoyance rather than a peice of a scifi utopia
I've always admired people who can live without a smartphone. I met one linux contributor at an open source conference who doesn't have a smartphone. He uses an old dumb phone, doesn't have any socials and always carries cash! In a country like India, where every payment runs on a QR code, it's crazy that he can survive without it. He asked me to look up directions to the metro, memorized it, and left.
One other thing is that he isn't socially awkward. He could go up to people, and ask for help, which I think a lot of us tend to avoid, and instead use apps to solve them.
> Do you consent to us collecting your data? This form has the only purpose of requesting a copy of ASD-STE100. Details are for record and statistical purposes only and will not be used or disclosed in any form to anyone. You can find out more about STEMG privacy policy here.
Only has a "Yes" option, and so I couldn't submit the form.
I'm currently looking for work and not even 2 hours ago I wanted to look up a company on Glassdoor for the first time in a while. I forgot they were aquired by Indeed. My Indeed login worked, but then I was demanded to give them my phone number to continue. Enough random business have my number so, whatever, but I could not move forward unless I consented to them sending me stuff. Yes, I could use a masked email, apply filters so I never see the junk, etc, but something about that really rubbed me the wrong way so I bailed.
Maybe, but I was using my gmail account anyway, so google already has that particular email info, but does that mean I'm obliged to share it with someone else ?
If there was a "No" response available, as the question suggests, it wouldn't be an issue. But it just annoyed me and felt like a dark practice.
So you filled out a form with your personal data and were about to press the submit button to send it to them, but you don't consent to them having that data?
> When I buy something, from a small kitchen appliance to a car, I’m now forced to get formal confirmation by the seller that I will be able to use it without installing one, two or three different apps.
I have no idea where is without buying stuff, but other than a car I bought more than a dozen of appliances or devices in the past years and other than obvious ones (label printer), none required an app, or it was pushed by a vendor.
The list is missing a couple of points, including: "My camera isn't working." "I don't have a QR code scanner app." - And, of course, since we've already shown we're fine with bending the truth a little if it helps our case: "I scanned the QR code. It leads to a porn video. Are you going to argue with me about that over a couple of pixels, or will you be so kind to give me the plain URL?"
It's no longer possible to buy any non-low-end TV that is not smart. "Vote with your wallet" doesn't help you much if there aren't any good candidates to vote for.
I've been able to say this truthfully up until 4 years ago. I was perfectly familiar with iOS and Android, and I could pick one up and use it as competently as anyone else. Was the same even when I decided to get one 4 years ago. Not having a Google and Meta account remains true for me. Never had a Meta/Facebook account at any point in time, and I deleted my Google account a decade ago.
It is frustrating dealing with people not willing to accept this is an option people have, and anything requiring an app is a dealbreaker for me. I didn't realize it was quite as bad as the author suggests with his various household items, but I am worried it will continue to get worse in that way without laws in manufacturing partitioning technology from life.
This is why Google's war on sideloading is so terrible. It does very little to make people safer, and it restricts user's ability to make a free market choice about which companies they transact with.
I use this method ^ which lets you keep essential apps but otherwise have dumb phone (no browser, no App Store). Highly recommend.
On the other hand, I have turned my laptop into a dumb computer using cold turkey blocker. I've never seen anyone talking about this here. I'm a standard user (for hardening reasons). And set up so I haven't watched YouTube largely for years because it's blocked and not at all in the past few days. It's flexible to configure and then because it's literally impossible to bypass you never try and then just end up living a calm life. (No ai, no reddit, no crappy news sites, etc.)
The only way I can see this working, is if you give your admin pass to a friend, and tell them "Never believe me when I say I need it, always act as if I'm lying".
And hope when you call at 2am needing a fix, they don't give in.
Came here to link this same thread. Have been following this approach for 6 months and its been great. The only non utility apps I have on my device are ChatGPT, Duolingo, and Spotify. I recently removed email.
I'm not nearly as disciplined with cold turkey though.
Never had a personal smartphone, just work-issued ones that usually stay on-location after a shift. Yeah, it can drive people up the wall. I don't care lol.
I want to use GrapheneOS without the ability to access the browser and without the ability to install new apps. At least without a password. A long one written down on paper would be enough friction for me. You could also give it to a trusted person. You can also write/give only a portion of a password and then memorize the other part.
Afaict there's not an effective way to do this like you can on iPhones with Apple Configurator [1].
Removing appstores from secondary profile and browser with ADB has a workaround (which I won't say in case someone uses that setup). Another drawback is enabling ADB is bad for security.
Dumbphones are stupid because they're overpriced, not secure, and lack awesome apps like maps or Signal. And I already have a phone.
When you buy something from a medium-sized shop in India, they would insist for your phone number, as their POS app have that field as almost mandatory. I had to fight at a pharmacy checkout, holding up the queue behind me, as I refuse to give my phone number.
I went back to a old Motorola phone not once but twice. Both attempts were unsuccessful. For directions I got a Garmin potable gos navigator. Once I was coming back from somewhere with my kids and it was 10:30 pm. They were hungry and wanted pizza. I used the Garmin gps and went to the restaurant but it was closed. That happened because the gps unit did not have the latest information. My family was mad and I went back to smartphone. The second time my extended family living outside the country were mad because they couldn’t call me on WhatsApp. So I went back to my smartphone. Totally two failed attempts at using a dumb phone.
I agree with all the assumptions, but it is a moving goalpost on being included in society.
Same as in some areas being a productive member of society includes: have a job, have a car, have a permenant address.
The only exceptiosn seem to skew to the top and bottom 10%? And even then it can steer more closet to top/bottom 5%? 1%? Where it doesn't matter you have enough or a complete lack of social proof that it doesn't matter.
I got a Sunbeam F1 in January and have been pleased with it. The hardest part is when I lost it, there is no find-my-phone (at least not that I know of, I should look, they are always adding new features). It has GPS and weather which is perfect for me. I just can't go to restaurants that don't have paper menus, which is fine.
We could all be a bit more humble about the onerous “tools” we’ve built . I have a lot of sympathy for the elderly, and the ridiculous rituals they go through just to book an appointment, fill a subscription, buy tickets to a concert, order groceries.
The McDonalds app is 15+ screens to order a burger. Compare that to walking in a, “hi, how are you, I’d like a Big Mac meal with a Coke, here’s my money, thanks”.
Let’s all have a bit more humility, and even humiliation, for the absurd protocols we’ve imposed on everyone.
Frustratingly, I haven't even had that in-store experience for a while now. You do the same app-based ordering process, but on a big tablet. If there's an issue with your order, it can take several minutes to get near enough to an employee to get their attention.
You actually forgot the most important one: your phone should be latest and approved by google or apple.
I have an old iphone that is mint clean and fairly excellent battery, a couple months ago I wanted to travel but didn’t want to take my main in case I lose it, turned out most the essential apps won’t install because your OS is outdated, from bank ones to uber, none! Same goes if you tried to install say a banking app on grapheneos.
Those assumptions were vivid during covid, I know personally some people who happened to be in some countries where the “pass” was only through an app on a smartphone, not even printed or screenshots were accepted, only the app to get your basic human needs.
> "I don’t have a smartphone," is what I tell people and professionals nowadays
I did this today too. I happened to walk past a branch of my bank, and remembered my debit card is playing up due to wear-and-tear, so I popped in to order a replacement. I made the request and the first response was "do you have our banking app, you can do it on there?". "No".
It wasn't even busy.
(I also happen to have my mortgage with my bank, so paying quite a lot of interest to them each month...)
I actually don't have a smartphone. Unfortunately I did get a tablet,
as I need it for MFA to access some websites that I need. It's quite
annoying to be forced into this though. There is a push towards making
this mandatory. The ideal perma-ID governments dreamed about.
> Just in my toilet, I’m supposed to have an app for the seat, an app for the flush and one for the ventilation.
There should be some sort of unofficial rule that if you’re writing something that strains credulity, you should actually link to something that explains it.
I wonder if the author has actually tried the QR code menus. It's actually incredibly convenient and some even let you pay right on the website so you ever are having to wait on some server to come by your table. You can get more information about the items on the menu than a physical menu and it is just more pleasant to read in general.
strong disagree. much harder to browse the menu in a tiny screen, many of those websites are written by the cousin and barely work at all, nefarious ux, etc.
So what do you do if your flushing app breaks? Or the manufacturer goes out of business and flush tracking servers go down? Or google decides to suspend it while you're on the toilet?
Not having a smartphone is a new status symbol flex.
The poorer you are, the more of your life you must waste looking at a screen instead of gazing upon beautiful landscapes and friendly faces.
Still it’s a step up as usual. Next stage will be probably those too poor to afford anti aging vs the muti centenarians that can.
And yet those that can’t afford multi centenarian lifestyle will live super well compared to today poorer class. Hunger, true hunger is eliminated where I live at least. Healthcare too is rather universal.
Good country.
And yet people will be furious at this inequality of lifespan and everyone understands it deeply as „dystopia”.
Medieval peasant would thought he is in heaven and yet we live in a dystopia and that is widely understood and I concur.
> 1. That person owns a smartphone (which is at least a couple hundred dollars).
I live in South Africa, and even the poor townships are full of smartphones these days. My gardener has a fairly recent Samsung. They literally borrow money to buy these things. So if they can afford it, so can you.
It's not that I don't get your point though - it could easily be seen as unnecessary spending when you have all kinds of expenses. But sooner or later, smartphones have become a necessity to get on with life.
Not achieve a societal norm but facilitate everyday tasks with the many, MANY things that are THAT much easier with a smartphone.
Now I get the author’s point, but there’s preferring to be off-grid (which I also tend to be), and there’s purposefully handicapping yourself then complaining about it later.
Look, if you run a blog, post your articles on places like HN and actually interact with the World Wide Web on a frequent basis you don’t get to preach about smartphones being evil devices that “society” imposes on you. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.
This is like a biker complaining there’s too many cars on the street. A motorcycle is a smaller vehicle but it’s still very much part of that class of problem they’re so proudly rising against.
Requiring an app to do things often is more time consuming (and unpleasant) than doing it without the app. Other times, the app is so poorly written that it's not worth using.
Once the novelty of "the new toy" (smartphone) wears off, using a smartphone when it's not needed becomes a burden.
---
For example, in the case of restaurants, I do not want to pull out my phone when I am having a conversation with people, therefore, I am greatly insulted when a restaurant requires a QR code to see a menu. I flat out ask for a menu, it's part of the joy of eating out.
---
Edit: I can certainly understand the need to tell someone, "get with the program, get a smart phone." Back when they were getting popular in the US, a stranger asked me for directions on a busy street. I told her where to go, but she "clung" to me and wanted me to show her. This was when I point blank told her that it's time to get a smartphone.
I do not (and never had) a smart phone, either.
I have been at one restaurant that had a QR code to view the menu, although they did provide a iPad to any customer who needed it. (At the time, I was with someone else who had their own iPad.) It was not very good food (and badly managed) so I do not intend to return there in future.
If you do not want to print the menu in multiple paper copies, then you might consider a single epaper display somewhere that the customers can easily see (anyone with a camera or a camera phone can take a picture; someone with pencil and paper might copy it out by hand).
I've still never had a smartphone (technically my flip phone, a Kyocera Dura, is an android device, but it can't install apps so I'll consider it suitably "dumb")
Occasionally I need to tote along a tablet because several places (some MLB venues, for one thing) will either require a smartphone, or impose a severe surcharge for the convenience of not using it.
Anyway, I really regret that we didn't impose dumbphone protection laws back when we had a large enough bloc of seniors that didn't "upgrade" to a smartphone yet
I tried to remove the browser from my smartphone and it was impossible because of all these stupid QR scanning requirements everywhere.
The word "requirements" is doing a lot of work there. I've never met a QR code where scanning it was required of me.
So you'd leave the restaurant if it has a QR menu?
This happened in an airport restaurant. I asked the server to get me the cheeseburger with fries.
Restaurants have thin enough margins already. They aren't turning away a customer for not bringing a phone. There's one tiny burger place just around the corner from me that's delivery/pickup only, not even a QR code, but they have a sign outside saying 10€ combos and they're 15€ on the website... I just asked them. They have very good halloumi burgers and perfectly cooked fries. They were happy to accept my cash, too.
I certainly would, unless it was something I was doing for someone else's sake (like a birthday dinner for someone). Why would I do business with a restaurant that can't be bothered to provide a good experience for customers?
Depending on what type of computer (if not smartphone) you have at hand, you can probably use a search engine to find the same menu. Or ask somebody at your table. Or ask the server. Or point at somebody else's food and say you want what they're having. Or eschew the menu entirely and ask to be surprised. Chef's choice can be fun.
Or leave yeah, I think that's valid. TFA is predicated on the notion of pretty-much-lying to people by telling them you don't have a smartphone even if you do. Leaving a restaurant if you can't find a menu seems like it'd be on similar ideological footing.
The idea is you shouldn't have to have any sort of computer on your person to participate in public life. If a proper eat-in restaurant can't maintain a paper menu then it's an indication of the level of service that's sure to follow.
Perhaps that's the grandparent commenter's idea but I don't think it's the point the article is making:
> So, seriously, I do really like the smartphone idea. It’s just that I don’t have any browser or "social" app on it. And I don’t want anything else than what I have.
> I wish I could say it is all I have, that I’m a true minimalist.
He defines true minimalism as having an _ideologically conformant_ computer, not no computer at all.
yes
I need it too for MFA, for instance one local university required it. On another university I can just use a yubikey. That is more convenient since it is small; the tablet is not so handy. I dislike the push towards forcing everyone to have a smartphone, or become a second class citizen in the country.
i bought my first smartphone this year. when traveling I was carrying the android tablet half of the time in my backpack, and even at home more and more you need apps for everything (e.g. lockersat club, gym entry, supermarket loyalty card, etc).
i just gave up. grapheneos + olauncher give me a minimal and open source enough experience to make it somewhat tolerable, but it makes me sad that as a society we've come to expect that you are carrying a computer with you at all times to exist.
I do have a smartphone, but I don't seem to feel the pain the author feels about being inundated by QR codes and apps. Maybe I have all the apps I need already? Maybe I just don't mind having an app on my phone because I know that I can set it to basically never bother me. Most of my apps have notifications silenced. My home screen is empty, save the handful of apps I do want. And for the little bit of effort I put forth to tweak the device to my liking, I get the world in my pocket - a full browser, every song I've ever liked, every picture I've ever taken, all my scanned documents, etc - not to mention all my loved ones available at a moment's notice. My battery lasts long enough, and when it doesn't, it's because I was using the device. I just don't understand the complaint I guess. Make the device work for you, not the other way around?
I don't think he's complaining about having a lot of apps, or the ability to have a lot of apps. He's complaining about being required to use apps for hundreds of small interactions every day that don't, or shouldn't, require an app. And he's correct. Companies are doing this not because they think it's better, but because they believe that if they can worm their way onto your device, and insert their cloud service (even if it's initially free), that they can turn you into a more reliable and/or recurring revenue stream in the future, either because you feel locked into their ecosystem so you will buy other products from their lineup, or, even better, buy a subscription service.
> He's complaining about being required to use apps for hundreds of small interactions every day
This is the exaggeration that makes these claims fall flat for me.
How are you getting to hundreds of smartphone interactions per day that require apps?
Just because you don't need to interact with all of them today does not mean that interaction isn't required when needed.
Right, but “two or three out of potentially hundreds” doesn’t mean the same as “hundreds”.
That’s the hyperbole the parent was pointing out.
Depending on where I park in the city, I have to install a different parking app. And create an account, and pay with a credit card via the app. There was a time, however brief, when some of the parking meters just accepted credit cards, or get this, coins.
This is what happens when a large number of people claim they "don't seem to feel the pain" and comply with the data broker's wishes. We all get stuck in the data brokers web, or we have to break the law to park on a public street.
100% this, and it is annoying. I pay for street parking (i'm ok with it, it's a tax base for the city I live in), but i'm not Ok with having to pay .50 per transaction. And i used to carry a stack of quarters in my car. And then you add all the vendors with their proprietary apps in this space, the tracking of the data of what car parked where, when, etc.
I'm suprised they were allowed to remove the coins from the meters, but they were. So people who don't have a premiere phone, because the apps don't work on your old crappy phone, or people who don't have a credit card to feed into the app on the phone, are SOL.
I think the problem is that things that once did not require and realistically shouldn't require apps (like the toilet example - which I can't tell if hyperbole or not) are now "app enabled" by default.
Sure, you have taken the time to curate your mobile experience and silence things but a majority of the people in the world don't do that as it takes more time and effort than they are willing or able to give (why silence things or uninstall apps when you can browse instagram or tiktok for 2 hours). These people are the most affected but don't often know how inundated they are.
The example could be hyperbole, but Home Depot and Lowes both offer a wide selection of "smart toilets" and if we think "oh this is just a weird niche thing that will never catch on" let's remember how difficult it is to not purchase a Smart TV when television shopping these days.
I cannot envision what a traditional, but smart toilet may do.
By traditional, not Japanese or anything of the sort. I'm sure it's also not taking medical samples.
So what on earth could it do?! Report the flushes!?! Why? Are you going to magically decide not to crap as much?
Just baffling.
The whole point of the label "smart" is to fill in vague positive thoughts for the customary "..." that comes right before "profit" in the standard /. business plan. And the real problem is that it works.
You're missing the point entirely. You're opting in and enjoying it, great! Do you really believe you chose to opt in? The author is saying that opting out is extremely painful and that THAT is wrong. We should all get to choose if we want to walk around with a smart phone or not. It's now basically required to invest in a privacy destroying device that makes huge corporations that much richer to function in society.
You don't understand why someone would complain about that?
> Do you really believe you chose to opt in?
Yes, in that I am of free enough will to choose not to use something or do my homework before making purchases. I'm also not saying that you shouldn't be able to walk around without a smartphone, but choices, like speech, aren't without consequence. If you want to pay for something at a location that only takes cash, but you won't carry cash because it's easily stolen or lost, that doesn't mean they have to accommodate you, it means you're not eating their food. Should they take card? Sure, and you should be able to walk around cashless, but the same choice you get to make, they do as well.
You missed out the parts about "extremely painful" and "basically required", as well as "privacy destroying" and "makes huge corporations that much richer".
So, for the analogy, let's say lots and lots of businesses and public utilities are cash only, and carrying the cash exploits you for Google's profit somehow. Or we could stick to the idea that carrying cash is a theft risk, but let's say the businesses are indirectly in cahoots with the pickpockets through a chain of corruption and that's why everybody requires you to carry cash and be vulnerable.
I have a motorola smartphone. I don't have google play installed. I mainly use obtainium for app installation. Its a bare bones phone and it drives my business partner crazy.
"Just log into our instagram account and. . .right, you don't have insta installed on your phone."
"Can you log into our scheduling app and. . . right, you don't have that installed on your phone either."
Some of the more painful things you have to deal with:
- Chromite and Iron Fox filtering out a ton of stuff so a lot of sites simply don't work
- Organic maps is slow and hard to use compared to Google and Apple maps.
- Fairmail that blocks a ton of images and other code - which is good, but had to get used to seeing everything blocked visually.
- Not having any banking apps on my phone. Every time my son needs a few bucks in his account, my wife has to do it if we're out.
- The open source weather apps are not very accurate. Usually within a few degrees, and the radar is hit or miss.
Kind of odd that we have to try so hard to ensure our own privacy. I'm up for a new phone this Fall so I'll most likely be moving to a newer Pixel and will get Lineage or Graphene installed on it.
> - Not having any banking apps on my phone. Every time my son needs a few bucks in his account, my wife has to do it if we're out.
This is the most tyrannical things about smart phones -- banking apps. I get it, the bank wants to ensure the platform is not a liability. But it forces most of us to use one of the only two "trusted" mobile providers on earth: Google or Apple, both of which are American (and I'm an American.) The only alternative is a browser which comes with its own set of problems.
In my experience in the U.S., I can manage my accounts at various banks and brokerages just as well from the website as from a mobile app. I’m ok with them restricting how their apps can be used as long as the browser remains an option. The requirement to use an app for all account management (or for authenticating to a website) seems to be mostly a European phenomenon.
Many work on GrapheneOS
One might by Jelly Star and use it just for banking apps. And have a proper phone with their own free selection of software.
> Every time my son needs a few bucks in his account, my wife has to do it if we're out
So the burden is on her?
When we're out in public? Yes.
If its time sensitive? Yes.
Like I said, its something that's annoying, but this is the cost of keeping my privacy. My wife uses Apple for all her stuff and she understands. By any account I wouldn't say this is a "burden" per se. She opens the app, hits a few buttons and hits sends. Hardly something that I would consider a burden.
Of course, privacy seeking is a selfish personality trait. I'm protecting myself, everyone else be damned.
> The open source weather apps are not very accurate. Usually with a few degrees, and the radar is hit or miss.
If you are in the US, check out wX: https://f-droid.org/packages/joshuatee.wx/
It's fairly technical and it is very configurable (so it can take some fussing to get it set up the way you like), but it pulls data directly from NWS and has been very accurate for my family.
Thanks for the heads up, I'll check it out today!
To each their own, but this seems more like purposefully handicapping yourself (and annoying those around you) over a very much false sense of privacy or “disconnection”. If it works for you then kudos, but I personally see this as an increasingly futile exercise with very little to no positive net return.
Business requires sacrifice. I'd get a separate business phone for your business's Instagram and your business's Facebook and so on. You have to have Instagram the same way you have to have an accountant - hold your nose and do it anyway.
I get the arguments against it but what i really want is people having some easy digital way to interface with the tech around them. Having a small on person computer be a client to things in your life seems like a really cool thing to aim for. It just sucks that corporate greed and a breakdown of trust between users and builders has lead to it being an annoyance rather than a peice of a scifi utopia
I've always admired people who can live without a smartphone. I met one linux contributor at an open source conference who doesn't have a smartphone. He uses an old dumb phone, doesn't have any socials and always carries cash! In a country like India, where every payment runs on a QR code, it's crazy that he can survive without it. He asked me to look up directions to the metro, memorized it, and left.
One other thing is that he isn't socially awkward. He could go up to people, and ask for help, which I think a lot of us tend to avoid, and instead use apps to solve them.
> They are willing to accept all the conditions of your apps, including sending you personal data, registering an account, etc.
I've had this exact problem this morning, I wanted to download the ASD-STE100 https://www.asd-ste100.org/STE_downloads.html#article02-2l and they use a request form to get the download.
Unfortunately the last question:
> Do you consent to us collecting your data? This form has the only purpose of requesting a copy of ASD-STE100. Details are for record and statistical purposes only and will not be used or disclosed in any form to anyone. You can find out more about STEMG privacy policy here.
Only has a "Yes" option, and so I couldn't submit the form.
Great success.
I'm currently looking for work and not even 2 hours ago I wanted to look up a company on Glassdoor for the first time in a while. I forgot they were aquired by Indeed. My Indeed login worked, but then I was demanded to give them my phone number to continue. Enough random business have my number so, whatever, but I could not move forward unless I consented to them sending me stuff. Yes, I could use a masked email, apply filters so I never see the junk, etc, but something about that really rubbed me the wrong way so I bailed.
Don't you obviously consent if you're filling in data to a google form? Unless the form answers go nowhere then it's being collected.
Maybe, but I was using my gmail account anyway, so google already has that particular email info, but does that mean I'm obliged to share it with someone else ?
If there was a "No" response available, as the question suggests, it wouldn't be an issue. But it just annoyed me and felt like a dark practice.
So you filled out a form with your personal data and were about to press the submit button to send it to them, but you don't consent to them having that data?
> When I buy something, from a small kitchen appliance to a car, I’m now forced to get formal confirmation by the seller that I will be able to use it without installing one, two or three different apps.
I have no idea where is without buying stuff, but other than a car I bought more than a dozen of appliances or devices in the past years and other than obvious ones (label printer), none required an app, or it was pushed by a vendor.
I love you.
As a T1 diabetic, I wish that we weren't tying things like medical devices to smart phones. It's just one more failure point.
The list is missing a couple of points, including: "My camera isn't working." "I don't have a QR code scanner app." - And, of course, since we've already shown we're fine with bending the truth a little if it helps our case: "I scanned the QR code. It leads to a porn video. Are you going to argue with me about that over a couple of pixels, or will you be so kind to give me the plain URL?"
I agree with the thesis that expecting an app is a non-trivial ask of the user, particularly for those with relevant disabilities.
But if you purchase a toilet that needs an app, it’s not really the toilet that obligated you to use the app.
It's no longer possible to buy any non-low-end TV that is not smart. "Vote with your wallet" doesn't help you much if there aren't any good candidates to vote for.
Authentication and 2FA, group messaging, and poor map support are the only reason I switched back to a smartphone and I still miss it
I've been able to say this truthfully up until 4 years ago. I was perfectly familiar with iOS and Android, and I could pick one up and use it as competently as anyone else. Was the same even when I decided to get one 4 years ago. Not having a Google and Meta account remains true for me. Never had a Meta/Facebook account at any point in time, and I deleted my Google account a decade ago.
It is frustrating dealing with people not willing to accept this is an option people have, and anything requiring an app is a dealbreaker for me. I didn't realize it was quite as bad as the author suggests with his various household items, but I am worried it will continue to get worse in that way without laws in manufacturing partitioning technology from life.
This is why Google's war on sideloading is so terrible. It does very little to make people safer, and it restricts user's ability to make a free market choice about which companies they transact with.
From my experience modified iPhones make the perfect dumb phones that you will actually end up sticking with and it's free if you already have one.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45171200
I use this method ^ which lets you keep essential apps but otherwise have dumb phone (no browser, no App Store). Highly recommend.
On the other hand, I have turned my laptop into a dumb computer using cold turkey blocker. I've never seen anyone talking about this here. I'm a standard user (for hardening reasons). And set up so I haven't watched YouTube largely for years because it's blocked and not at all in the past few days. It's flexible to configure and then because it's literally impossible to bypass you never try and then just end up living a calm life. (No ai, no reddit, no crappy news sites, etc.)
> On the other hand, I have turned my laptop into a dumb computer using cold turkey blocker.
Very easily bypassed at least on MacOS unfortunately.
Not if you set up a separate admin account and demote yourself to standard user.
I don't think that would patch it. You want me to say what it is?
The only way I can see this working, is if you give your admin pass to a friend, and tell them "Never believe me when I say I need it, always act as if I'm lying".
And hope when you call at 2am needing a fix, they don't give in.
You can store a long password within an app or website and then block that website with a 6 hour delay to unlock.
Came here to link this same thread. Have been following this approach for 6 months and its been great. The only non utility apps I have on my device are ChatGPT, Duolingo, and Spotify. I recently removed email.
I'm not nearly as disciplined with cold turkey though.
Never had a personal smartphone, just work-issued ones that usually stay on-location after a shift. Yeah, it can drive people up the wall. I don't care lol.
> I don't care lol.
And this is precisely how I know you care.
I want to use GrapheneOS without the ability to access the browser and without the ability to install new apps. At least without a password. A long one written down on paper would be enough friction for me. You could also give it to a trusted person. You can also write/give only a portion of a password and then memorize the other part.
Afaict there's not an effective way to do this like you can on iPhones with Apple Configurator [1].
Removing appstores from secondary profile and browser with ADB has a workaround (which I won't say in case someone uses that setup). Another drawback is enabling ADB is bad for security.
Dumbphones are stupid because they're overpriced, not secure, and lack awesome apps like maps or Signal. And I already have a phone.
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45171200 this is seriously great if you have an iPhone, I used to use it before I switched to GrapheneOS.
When you buy something from a medium-sized shop in India, they would insist for your phone number, as their POS app have that field as almost mandatory. I had to fight at a pharmacy checkout, holding up the queue behind me, as I refuse to give my phone number.
I went back to a old Motorola phone not once but twice. Both attempts were unsuccessful. For directions I got a Garmin potable gos navigator. Once I was coming back from somewhere with my kids and it was 10:30 pm. They were hungry and wanted pizza. I used the Garmin gps and went to the restaurant but it was closed. That happened because the gps unit did not have the latest information. My family was mad and I went back to smartphone. The second time my extended family living outside the country were mad because they couldn’t call me on WhatsApp. So I went back to my smartphone. Totally two failed attempts at using a dumb phone.
Doing the “right thing” has come with inconvenience since time immemorial. It takes a strong personality to persevere.
> they couldn’t call me on WhatsApp
Some might consider that a benefit.
I agree with all the assumptions, but it is a moving goalpost on being included in society.
Same as in some areas being a productive member of society includes: have a job, have a car, have a permenant address.
The only exceptiosn seem to skew to the top and bottom 10%? And even then it can steer more closet to top/bottom 5%? 1%? Where it doesn't matter you have enough or a complete lack of social proof that it doesn't matter.
I got a Sunbeam F1 in January and have been pleased with it. The hardest part is when I lost it, there is no find-my-phone (at least not that I know of, I should look, they are always adding new features). It has GPS and weather which is perfect for me. I just can't go to restaurants that don't have paper menus, which is fine.
I don't use apps. It's a phone with a web browser and camera.
“Just in my toilet, I’m supposed to have an app for the seat, an app for the flush and one for the ventilation.”
Ok that explains where the hate for apps comes from…
We could all be a bit more humble about the onerous “tools” we’ve built . I have a lot of sympathy for the elderly, and the ridiculous rituals they go through just to book an appointment, fill a subscription, buy tickets to a concert, order groceries.
The McDonalds app is 15+ screens to order a burger. Compare that to walking in a, “hi, how are you, I’d like a Big Mac meal with a Coke, here’s my money, thanks”.
Let’s all have a bit more humility, and even humiliation, for the absurd protocols we’ve imposed on everyone.
Frustratingly, I haven't even had that in-store experience for a while now. You do the same app-based ordering process, but on a big tablet. If there's an issue with your order, it can take several minutes to get near enough to an employee to get their attention.
But think how high the engagement needles go on the app!
I do not have one (and it's actually true.) And it's not easy. :-(
A week ago, a medical office that I had an appointment at kept pestering me to fill out their intake form online. (Multiple, multiple texts.)
I got there the next day, and when they asked me to do the form, I rolled my eyes and said, "do I need to install an app?"
The lady behind the counter asked for my insurance card, scanned it, and told me that I was all set.
What was all that nonsense for, anyway?
I’m always in voice group chats , and fellowshipping is more important to me then being digitally free.
Installing an app vs scanning a qr code is vastly different. That being said, I won't do either to see s menu.
> following assumptions
You actually forgot the most important one: your phone should be latest and approved by google or apple.
I have an old iphone that is mint clean and fairly excellent battery, a couple months ago I wanted to travel but didn’t want to take my main in case I lose it, turned out most the essential apps won’t install because your OS is outdated, from bank ones to uber, none! Same goes if you tried to install say a banking app on grapheneos.
Those assumptions were vivid during covid, I know personally some people who happened to be in some countries where the “pass” was only through an app on a smartphone, not even printed or screenshots were accepted, only the app to get your basic human needs.
That’ll get you detained for a while at the border.
> "I don’t have a smartphone," is what I tell people and professionals nowadays
I did this today too. I happened to walk past a branch of my bank, and remembered my debit card is playing up due to wear-and-tear, so I popped in to order a replacement. I made the request and the first response was "do you have our banking app, you can do it on there?". "No".
It wasn't even busy.
(I also happen to have my mortgage with my bank, so paying quite a lot of interest to them each month...)
I actually don't have a smartphone. Unfortunately I did get a tablet, as I need it for MFA to access some websites that I need. It's quite annoying to be forced into this though. There is a push towards making this mandatory. The ideal perma-ID governments dreamed about.
> Just in my toilet, I’m supposed to have an app for the seat, an app for the flush and one for the ventilation.
There should be some sort of unofficial rule that if you’re writing something that strains credulity, you should actually link to something that explains it.
> Just in my toilet, I’m supposed to have an app for the seat, an app for the flush and one for the ventilation.
Is this a joke? Are there really toilets that require a smartphone to flush?
This seems hard to believe, but the author already tooted about it (https://mamot.fr/@ploum/117016623130281141) so he may be serious
Have definitely used this one, or “my SIM card doesn’t work in this country”.
My other lie is “I don’t carry cards.” Works best whilst holding up a Benjamin.
I get it, I really hate it too. When I don't want to use my phone, I just leave it somewhere in the house and forget about it for a couple of days.
At some point, if you say something like that you'll probably be just given one.
I wonder if the author has actually tried the QR code menus. It's actually incredibly convenient and some even let you pay right on the website so you ever are having to wait on some server to come by your table. You can get more information about the items on the menu than a physical menu and it is just more pleasant to read in general.
strong disagree. much harder to browse the menu in a tiny screen, many of those websites are written by the cousin and barely work at all, nefarious ux, etc.
So what do you do if your flushing app breaks? Or the manufacturer goes out of business and flush tracking servers go down? Or google decides to suspend it while you're on the toilet?
> Or google decides to suspend it while you're on the toilet?
If anyone at Google is reading this, please answer urgently, my legs are starting to go numb.
if the Buddha had a smart phone, it would be a Mudita Kompakt.
Not having a smartphone is a new status symbol flex.
The poorer you are, the more of your life you must waste looking at a screen instead of gazing upon beautiful landscapes and friendly faces.
Still it’s a step up as usual. Next stage will be probably those too poor to afford anti aging vs the muti centenarians that can.
And yet those that can’t afford multi centenarian lifestyle will live super well compared to today poorer class. Hunger, true hunger is eliminated where I live at least. Healthcare too is rather universal.
Good country.
And yet people will be furious at this inequality of lifespan and everyone understands it deeply as „dystopia”.
Medieval peasant would thought he is in heaven and yet we live in a dystopia and that is widely understood and I concur.
> Not having a smartphone is a new status symbol flex.
It’s pretty much like those vegans people tend to make fun of: it’s performative. It’s humble-brag-fuelled activism that craves audience approval.
> The poorer you are, the more of your life you must waste looking at a screen instead of gazing upon beautiful landscapes and friendly faces.
"Must", perhaps. But plenty of people of any wealth are addicted
It’s also easier to be addicted when you can’t afford any alternatives and thinking about the future makes you anxious.
I don't eat meat or watch television. I'm whiter than you.
No one actually believes you if you say that. Even if it is true.
> 1. That person owns a smartphone (which is at least a couple hundred dollars).
I live in South Africa, and even the poor townships are full of smartphones these days. My gardener has a fairly recent Samsung. They literally borrow money to buy these things. So if they can afford it, so can you.
It's not that I don't get your point though - it could easily be seen as unnecessary spending when you have all kinds of expenses. But sooner or later, smartphones have become a necessity to get on with life.
Affordability is not the OP's point.
I don't disagree with you main point but thought this was funny:
> They literally borrow money to buy these things. So if they can afford it,
Borrowing money would indicate they can't afford it. But I think you mean "afford the risk in order to achieve a societal norm".
Not achieve a societal norm but facilitate everyday tasks with the many, MANY things that are THAT much easier with a smartphone.
Now I get the author’s point, but there’s preferring to be off-grid (which I also tend to be), and there’s purposefully handicapping yourself then complaining about it later.
Look, if you run a blog, post your articles on places like HN and actually interact with the World Wide Web on a frequent basis you don’t get to preach about smartphones being evil devices that “society” imposes on you. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.
This is like a biker complaining there’s too many cars on the street. A motorcycle is a smaller vehicle but it’s still very much part of that class of problem they’re so proudly rising against.
It’s theatre. Pure and simple theatre.
It's not about the money, it's about time.
Requiring an app to do things often is more time consuming (and unpleasant) than doing it without the app. Other times, the app is so poorly written that it's not worth using.
Once the novelty of "the new toy" (smartphone) wears off, using a smartphone when it's not needed becomes a burden.
---
For example, in the case of restaurants, I do not want to pull out my phone when I am having a conversation with people, therefore, I am greatly insulted when a restaurant requires a QR code to see a menu. I flat out ask for a menu, it's part of the joy of eating out.
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Edit: I can certainly understand the need to tell someone, "get with the program, get a smart phone." Back when they were getting popular in the US, a stranger asked me for directions on a busy street. I told her where to go, but she "clung" to me and wanted me to show her. This was when I point blank told her that it's time to get a smartphone.