Doesn't sound like AI is necessarily the root the problem. If he's not the person to test, iterate, and deliver quality with AI, he probably wouldn't be without it. You just figured it out sooner.
Or, if you have reason to believe he's got what it takes - treat it like an leaving opportunity, give him room to make mistakes. This is, ime, what a rookie AI user mistake looks like.
It is easy to get carried away by the momentum. Many have fallen into that trap, not all are irredeemably bad software engineers.
> If he's not the person to test, iterate, and deliver quality with AI, he probably wouldn't be without it
I see the take quite often on HN, and I have a major gripe with it. Yes, people were lazy and we had these problems before LLMs hit the scene, but clearly there has been a sea-change in both the frequency and degree of this behaviour since.
A problem can both exist independent of a catalyst and be exacerbated by it. Arguments that try to window-dress this away are not particularly productive.
OP and long time lurker here, I'm desperate and looking for honest-to-god advice on what to do.
I am one of those neurodivergent people who loves programming because it gives me the right stimulation.
I also enjoy drawing, gardening, and exercise.
I don't own a car because I love walking, and such.
So I'm wondering if it's time to call it quits with programming (for a living).
Luckily I have some savings and I have other interests from years of doing random jobs and businesses, and as much as I love programming, especially with others, I think very few of us still want to program.
I'm like the Last Samurai of programming while everyone is using AI-assisted gattling guns.
The differentiator right now is taste. Most people have none (like the business partner in the OP), and some people have plenty (like you seem to have). These two sets of people will produce wildly different results with the same tools.
Two things you can do regarding programming here.
1. Be a consultant for a high wage, use AI, produce good results quickly - little to negative intellectual joy here. You still have the edge here due to good taste.
2. Produce 'artisanal' code in your spare time. Work 3 months for pay, then 9 months on whatever projects scratch your itch.
I still want to program and I don't think it's time to let go. Hit me up (email in bio) if you wanna chat, you sound like a really interesting bloke.
I also really enjoy programming, and relate to your comment below about sometimes waking up in the middle of the night because your brain figured out how to code a hard problem.
Sorry to hear you're having a rough time with work. I do think AI availability has made otherwise smart people put out lazy work. But I also think that there are more people who still "code by hand" than you think.
You might find some joy by going to certain events where people talk about different items coding-wise. I enjoyed the talks for this conference recently https://www.youtube.com/@softwareshouldwork (particularly Richard Hipp's, Delaney Gillilan's and Carson Gross' talks), maybe you can find similar spaces. The benefit has been Youtube's algorithm recommending me better software talks now too.
Just find a better place to go. If you have savings, quit this nonsense and start looking for something else while working on yourself.
I just got back to working on a project I like where we don't use any LLMs for code generation because we think it kind of sucks and leads to bad results unless it's for incredibly small contexts (which is usually not worth the prompting).
You're also not as alone as you think in actually liking programming enough to do it by hand even after having used LLMs. There's also the fact that you build more theory up by actually writing the code anyway, so someone who actually wants to know their code base intimitely will always have to write the code.
> who loves programming because it gives me the right stimulation
A small (and a bit tangential) personal story: I thought I am one of those people who care about the result, more then about the process.
But, I've recently played a game called "The Farmer Was Replaced" that someone mentioned in the comments in one of the posts here, on HN.
The game is basically a farming sim, except you farm by programming a drone using a Python-like language.
Of course, I didn't use AI, because where is the fan in this? In "normal life" (work, personal projects), it is very hard for me to convince myself to do anything manually, because generating code is more efficient. But in a game, using AI assistance would be like using aimbot in a shooter or a cheatcode in some other game. Yeah, it's much more efficient, but what is the point? There is no challenge and no fun that comes from overcoming the challenge.
So, anyway, I was writing code by hand for the first time in I-don't-even-remember-how-many years. And it was so much fun. I don't remember when was the last time I felt so engaged, so immersed, so "in the flow".
So, yeah. After all, maybe I'm not a ruthless pragmatic who only cares about the final result and doesn't gives a shit, how did he get there...
No it's absolutely not time to let go. You are one of a limited set of people with pre-AI taste and intuition for good software. They aren't making any more of them. And you'll be a super valuable asset anywhere you go.
I mean, if you want to retire go ahead, but don't do it because of AI. AI is just a tool to generate code faster. It doesn't replace the work of actually making design decisions and knowing what will scale and what's better going forward vs what will work now but spiral into unmanageable spaghetti code soon (yes AIs also have a harder time managing messy code than neat code)
I often read here comments along the lines of "there will be plenty of jobs for AI-unfuckers" [1], but I fear the truth may be closer to "sometimes things are broken, are then fixed with a broken solution, and will remain broken till the end of time".
In my last round of job search this year no one asked me questions about good software practices but they did ask me how proficient I was with AI agents. And let's not forget that we are part of an industry whose motto is "move fast and break things". Sure, NASA has a zero-bugs approach to software dev, but they don't have room for all of us.
I'm am certainly an "ai believer" and have been since I saw the tragectory we were on.
It was pretty simple to project the compounding effects and headroom that we had. I go back and forth on this all the time.
There probably won't be much demand for "un-fuckers". Up until recently I thought knowing what to build for a given context would give you quite a bit of runway.
I still think knowing what you should build will be important for the next 12-24 months.. but I have to be honest.. after that.. I don't know.
I don't know how to feel myself. I'm certainly an "ideas" guy as well as a nitty gritty build it guy. I just think my technical side is depreciating very rapidly.
SV echo chamber here it seems. No, most businesses globally don't work in idiotic and often amoral mode of 'move fast and break things' (and unlawful on top of that, but who has time for some boring stuff like that when greed fully takes over).
Banks will not work like that for next 10 years at least. The tiny amount of money one could save on those big banking projects by using llms aggressively will bite back immediately when shit just doesn't work, clients leave for good and regulators will fine you to the ground (or remove your banking license). Many other businesses who are not race to the bottom and realize how crucial reliable IT is to their business also won't go that way anytime soon.
World is not ending, there is some transformation and thats about it. Its true there will be much less jobs for devs but its mostly affecting newcomers. Statistical models are not making code better than experienced humans, and won't for some time if ever.
> most businesses globally don't work in idiotic and often amoral mode of 'move fast and break things'
Not sure what business you are in but the non tech industries (corporate IT, in house apps) have not, in general, been associated with quality. Cost cutting, outsourcing to the lowest bidder: yes. Quality: no.
This is what’s know as “cope”. People are not being hired on the basis of how well they know how to not use AI. That is the basis of what people were hired on before AI, because no alternative existed.
The problem is not vibe coding. The problem is the people doing this were never good software engineers before vibe coding.
Simply put you still need good practices to produce working good code with AI.
Oddly what I have found best is patterns that many would cringe and demeans unit test and integration test.
Yes I still vibe unit test and integration test, but more than ever I have to put on my PM and QA hat, even more so with web dev.
For me the only part of the process that has changed is I don’t write the code. I still setup environments to run the code, I still manually poke at things I suspect will be fragile. But most importantly I still always run the software before shipping it.
Well said. The problem is that vibe coding can paper over bad engineering practices for awhile. And results look good, and when you raise concerns people look at you like you're dumb and trying to slow things down.
But the underlying bad practices _will_ bite the same they would have before AI, you just don't know when.
It's a really frustrating state of the industry to be in.
Couldn't have said it better myself. Issue at hand is if you're working in an environment that enables such people and even encourages that behaviour. Suddenly, their voice is the same where it was never even a whisper before, and you can't do anything about it. It is extremely demotivating and I would actually propose a more radical approach to it - either embrace the shit in full and commit to it as well or really do engage into another company where there's a better filter for hiring. The latter are usually smaller companies because they can't afford no to.
"no worries man I know what I'm doing" it’s first sentence in AI-using human mouth that tells me to turn around and run.
I’m using models, I’ve built two whole projects without looking at more than 1% of code, but I’ve tested the interface and went through data on disk to verify the assumptions.
Sad to see you have a FRIEND who behaved this way.
> I’m using models, I’ve built two whole projects without looking at more than 1% of code, but I’ve tested the interface and went through data on disk to verify the assumptions.
so, would you say "no worries man I know what I'm doing" about how you use AI?
> After this project, I'm done. I might turn into a yoga teacher.
I gather that you don't have the "juice" to demand better. Even AI testing AI would be better (in some parallel universe?) than not testing at all.
So become a consultant, preaching the simple gospel of "test this goddamn thing before unleashing it, or the tougher gospel of "Well if AI is doing all the work, then why don't you find a job that tolerates garbage?"
I almost always had more responsibility than authority, except for a job where I actually had a field team. They were laid off by the "authorities" in order of greatest competence first and I ended up with one guy who made countless goofs, like creating overlapping disk partitions. I ended up redoing all his work, more than doubling my load. Does that sound familiar?
In your case, it sounds like you will end up similarly, unless you find a way get your management to establish a "No broken shit" rule. I know that's daunting, and in many jobs, I could only finagle minor changes, usually by talking with other people more tenured, who had a piece of management's ear.
If it amounts to "I must double my work or this all falls apart" while your partner pushes buttons (my charge was a "button-pusher"), then leave, and good luck.
But do give it one college try to get some sanity into the system.
I did work as an Engineering Manager for a bit but honestly hated it with my guts. Promised myself I would never do that again. I have two young children so they're a bigger priority right now.
Not to sound pretentious but I was top 10 in my country (for example, I read a 500-page book on Assembly language the night before and aced a test that 90% of people failed) so it's really hard for me to work with people who don't get things as fast as I do.
Nothing to brag as it really isn't all hard work, I'm just quite neurodivergent compared to the average. It comes with A LOT of downsides (some nights I only sleep 2 hours because I came up with the solution to a hard problem while I was asleep and wake up to code it and it works)
Now, all this is because I am now at a crossroad where I have enough money and life experience in other jobs (I stopped programming for 10 years in fact because I had a pretty successful business).
The sad part is that I rekindled my love with programming in the last decade (I'm past 40), but it might be time to let it go and go back to doing business.
EDIT: I did work as a consultant (reluctantly) and was charging $500/hr because I really didn't like it but the demand was there. With the economy not being what it was and all the "AI prompt vibe coders" etc blah blah out there I don't really know what's a good rate now.
I don't know about "coding from scratch". Everything seems to have gone up one notch, and I don't really know what that implies.
I'm a real old-timer and really wanted that kind of leap for a long time, and delved into scripting languages and even dataflow as in the old Prograph [0], but did mostly sysadmin kinds of chores, with some very fun scientific simulations (so that upper management, even older than I was) could use them, in Hypercard, and that dead-ended.
If the next step is to build upon "building blocks" I'd like to see THOSE blocks thoroughly tested, as math libraries are to a great degree, and not ad-hoc. The most annoying thing I find about LLM's is their propensity to reinvent wheels every time. This may be inherent in the design, I don't know. But a serious business or other project should insist on reliable reusable blocks.
Perhaps the current situation is more like rounding up animals after they broke out of the zoo than caring for them, before it stabilizes if it ever does.
I nag people here to meet some real unmet needs, particularly for seniors, not just because I am one, but because I have had a lot of ideas on what to do, especially about building community and services. The internet is just too savage a place for most. I'll bet that the people approaching senior status will bitch about the lack of real self-driving cars, exoskeletons, and fraud-proof networks of trust, compared to the chainsaw internet of scams --- that THEY could have solved.
Create a "programmable internet" to get around all the annoyances, traps and dark patterns? I do it all the time, working around annoyances, popups, scams, paywalls. The average person isn't going to be able to do these things, not even with the leveling up of programming, but perhaps via proxy. Just as everyone seems to be putting up a shield, with endless CAPTCHAS (and I have browser extentions to solve these relentless eye exams) maybe users need a shield themselves.
But I ramble.
Good luck in whatever you decide to do.
Tally your strengths and strongest interests. Enjoy your family. I was posting elsewhere about some of the insane managers I've endured but memories and photos (some scanned from the film days) of being a parent are the real heart and soul of life. I have read some really insightful articles on what skills will be needed in the next few years and I'll summarize as I make sense of them.
5k is rookie numbers. My PM sent me an 80k line PR and told me to yolo it into production last week.
Doesn't sound like AI is necessarily the root the problem. If he's not the person to test, iterate, and deliver quality with AI, he probably wouldn't be without it. You just figured it out sooner.
Or, if you have reason to believe he's got what it takes - treat it like an leaving opportunity, give him room to make mistakes. This is, ime, what a rookie AI user mistake looks like.
It is easy to get carried away by the momentum. Many have fallen into that trap, not all are irredeemably bad software engineers.
> If he's not the person to test, iterate, and deliver quality with AI, he probably wouldn't be without it
I see the take quite often on HN, and I have a major gripe with it. Yes, people were lazy and we had these problems before LLMs hit the scene, but clearly there has been a sea-change in both the frequency and degree of this behaviour since.
A problem can both exist independent of a catalyst and be exacerbated by it. Arguments that try to window-dress this away are not particularly productive.
*learning opportunity. Damn autotype
[delayed]
OP and long time lurker here, I'm desperate and looking for honest-to-god advice on what to do.
I am one of those neurodivergent people who loves programming because it gives me the right stimulation.
I also enjoy drawing, gardening, and exercise.
I don't own a car because I love walking, and such.
So I'm wondering if it's time to call it quits with programming (for a living).
Luckily I have some savings and I have other interests from years of doing random jobs and businesses, and as much as I love programming, especially with others, I think very few of us still want to program.
I'm like the Last Samurai of programming while everyone is using AI-assisted gattling guns.
Is it time to let go?
The differentiator right now is taste. Most people have none (like the business partner in the OP), and some people have plenty (like you seem to have). These two sets of people will produce wildly different results with the same tools.
Two things you can do regarding programming here.
1. Be a consultant for a high wage, use AI, produce good results quickly - little to negative intellectual joy here. You still have the edge here due to good taste.
2. Produce 'artisanal' code in your spare time. Work 3 months for pay, then 9 months on whatever projects scratch your itch.
I still want to program and I don't think it's time to let go. Hit me up (email in bio) if you wanna chat, you sound like a really interesting bloke.
I also really enjoy programming, and relate to your comment below about sometimes waking up in the middle of the night because your brain figured out how to code a hard problem.
Sorry to hear you're having a rough time with work. I do think AI availability has made otherwise smart people put out lazy work. But I also think that there are more people who still "code by hand" than you think.
You might find some joy by going to certain events where people talk about different items coding-wise. I enjoyed the talks for this conference recently https://www.youtube.com/@softwareshouldwork (particularly Richard Hipp's, Delaney Gillilan's and Carson Gross' talks), maybe you can find similar spaces. The benefit has been Youtube's algorithm recommending me better software talks now too.
I’ve been on a sabbatical for 99% of this year, small pockets of time spent doing some maintenance for clients I love.
I bought a seriously derelict property in country Australia and am having a good time slowly fixing it up.
I’ll get back to programming next year, hopefully the blow-ins have moved on to the next hype cycle by that time.
You are far from alone on that path and indeed I also wonder if it may be time to let it go.
Just find a better place to go. If you have savings, quit this nonsense and start looking for something else while working on yourself.
I just got back to working on a project I like where we don't use any LLMs for code generation because we think it kind of sucks and leads to bad results unless it's for incredibly small contexts (which is usually not worth the prompting).
You're also not as alone as you think in actually liking programming enough to do it by hand even after having used LLMs. There's also the fact that you build more theory up by actually writing the code anyway, so someone who actually wants to know their code base intimitely will always have to write the code.
> who loves programming because it gives me the right stimulation
A small (and a bit tangential) personal story: I thought I am one of those people who care about the result, more then about the process.
But, I've recently played a game called "The Farmer Was Replaced" that someone mentioned in the comments in one of the posts here, on HN.
The game is basically a farming sim, except you farm by programming a drone using a Python-like language.
Of course, I didn't use AI, because where is the fan in this? In "normal life" (work, personal projects), it is very hard for me to convince myself to do anything manually, because generating code is more efficient. But in a game, using AI assistance would be like using aimbot in a shooter or a cheatcode in some other game. Yeah, it's much more efficient, but what is the point? There is no challenge and no fun that comes from overcoming the challenge.
So, anyway, I was writing code by hand for the first time in I-don't-even-remember-how-many years. And it was so much fun. I don't remember when was the last time I felt so engaged, so immersed, so "in the flow".
So, yeah. After all, maybe I'm not a ruthless pragmatic who only cares about the final result and doesn't gives a shit, how did he get there...
Why not become a machine gun operator?
No it's absolutely not time to let go. You are one of a limited set of people with pre-AI taste and intuition for good software. They aren't making any more of them. And you'll be a super valuable asset anywhere you go.
I mean, if you want to retire go ahead, but don't do it because of AI. AI is just a tool to generate code faster. It doesn't replace the work of actually making design decisions and knowing what will scale and what's better going forward vs what will work now but spiral into unmanageable spaghetti code soon (yes AIs also have a harder time managing messy code than neat code)
I often read here comments along the lines of "there will be plenty of jobs for AI-unfuckers" [1], but I fear the truth may be closer to "sometimes things are broken, are then fixed with a broken solution, and will remain broken till the end of time".
In my last round of job search this year no one asked me questions about good software practices but they did ask me how proficient I was with AI agents. And let's not forget that we are part of an industry whose motto is "move fast and break things". Sure, NASA has a zero-bugs approach to software dev, but they don't have room for all of us.
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44646820
I'm am certainly an "ai believer" and have been since I saw the tragectory we were on.
It was pretty simple to project the compounding effects and headroom that we had. I go back and forth on this all the time.
There probably won't be much demand for "un-fuckers". Up until recently I thought knowing what to build for a given context would give you quite a bit of runway.
I still think knowing what you should build will be important for the next 12-24 months.. but I have to be honest.. after that.. I don't know.
I don't know how to feel myself. I'm certainly an "ideas" guy as well as a nitty gritty build it guy. I just think my technical side is depreciating very rapidly.
SV echo chamber here it seems. No, most businesses globally don't work in idiotic and often amoral mode of 'move fast and break things' (and unlawful on top of that, but who has time for some boring stuff like that when greed fully takes over).
Banks will not work like that for next 10 years at least. The tiny amount of money one could save on those big banking projects by using llms aggressively will bite back immediately when shit just doesn't work, clients leave for good and regulators will fine you to the ground (or remove your banking license). Many other businesses who are not race to the bottom and realize how crucial reliable IT is to their business also won't go that way anytime soon.
World is not ending, there is some transformation and thats about it. Its true there will be much less jobs for devs but its mostly affecting newcomers. Statistical models are not making code better than experienced humans, and won't for some time if ever.
> most businesses globally don't work in idiotic and often amoral mode of 'move fast and break things'
Not sure what business you are in but the non tech industries (corporate IT, in house apps) have not, in general, been associated with quality. Cost cutting, outsourcing to the lowest bidder: yes. Quality: no.
This is what’s know as “cope”. People are not being hired on the basis of how well they know how to not use AI. That is the basis of what people were hired on before AI, because no alternative existed.
The problem is not vibe coding. The problem is the people doing this were never good software engineers before vibe coding.
Simply put you still need good practices to produce working good code with AI.
Oddly what I have found best is patterns that many would cringe and demeans unit test and integration test.
Yes I still vibe unit test and integration test, but more than ever I have to put on my PM and QA hat, even more so with web dev.
For me the only part of the process that has changed is I don’t write the code. I still setup environments to run the code, I still manually poke at things I suspect will be fragile. But most importantly I still always run the software before shipping it.
Well said. The problem is that vibe coding can paper over bad engineering practices for awhile. And results look good, and when you raise concerns people look at you like you're dumb and trying to slow things down.
But the underlying bad practices _will_ bite the same they would have before AI, you just don't know when.
It's a really frustrating state of the industry to be in.
Couldn't have said it better myself. Issue at hand is if you're working in an environment that enables such people and even encourages that behaviour. Suddenly, their voice is the same where it was never even a whisper before, and you can't do anything about it. It is extremely demotivating and I would actually propose a more radical approach to it - either embrace the shit in full and commit to it as well or really do engage into another company where there's a better filter for hiring. The latter are usually smaller companies because they can't afford no to.
"no worries man I know what I'm doing" it’s first sentence in AI-using human mouth that tells me to turn around and run. I’m using models, I’ve built two whole projects without looking at more than 1% of code, but I’ve tested the interface and went through data on disk to verify the assumptions. Sad to see you have a FRIEND who behaved this way.
> I’m using models, I’ve built two whole projects without looking at more than 1% of code, but I’ve tested the interface and went through data on disk to verify the assumptions.
so, would you say "no worries man I know what I'm doing" about how you use AI?
> After this project, I'm done. I might turn into a yoga teacher.
I gather that you don't have the "juice" to demand better. Even AI testing AI would be better (in some parallel universe?) than not testing at all.
So become a consultant, preaching the simple gospel of "test this goddamn thing before unleashing it, or the tougher gospel of "Well if AI is doing all the work, then why don't you find a job that tolerates garbage?"
I almost always had more responsibility than authority, except for a job where I actually had a field team. They were laid off by the "authorities" in order of greatest competence first and I ended up with one guy who made countless goofs, like creating overlapping disk partitions. I ended up redoing all his work, more than doubling my load. Does that sound familiar?
In your case, it sounds like you will end up similarly, unless you find a way get your management to establish a "No broken shit" rule. I know that's daunting, and in many jobs, I could only finagle minor changes, usually by talking with other people more tenured, who had a piece of management's ear.
If it amounts to "I must double my work or this all falls apart" while your partner pushes buttons (my charge was a "button-pusher"), then leave, and good luck.
But do give it one college try to get some sanity into the system.
Thanks for your reply.
I did work as an Engineering Manager for a bit but honestly hated it with my guts. Promised myself I would never do that again. I have two young children so they're a bigger priority right now.
Not to sound pretentious but I was top 10 in my country (for example, I read a 500-page book on Assembly language the night before and aced a test that 90% of people failed) so it's really hard for me to work with people who don't get things as fast as I do.
Nothing to brag as it really isn't all hard work, I'm just quite neurodivergent compared to the average. It comes with A LOT of downsides (some nights I only sleep 2 hours because I came up with the solution to a hard problem while I was asleep and wake up to code it and it works)
Now, all this is because I am now at a crossroad where I have enough money and life experience in other jobs (I stopped programming for 10 years in fact because I had a pretty successful business).
The sad part is that I rekindled my love with programming in the last decade (I'm past 40), but it might be time to let it go and go back to doing business.
EDIT: I did work as a consultant (reluctantly) and was charging $500/hr because I really didn't like it but the demand was there. With the economy not being what it was and all the "AI prompt vibe coders" etc blah blah out there I don't really know what's a good rate now.
I don't know about "coding from scratch". Everything seems to have gone up one notch, and I don't really know what that implies.
I'm a real old-timer and really wanted that kind of leap for a long time, and delved into scripting languages and even dataflow as in the old Prograph [0], but did mostly sysadmin kinds of chores, with some very fun scientific simulations (so that upper management, even older than I was) could use them, in Hypercard, and that dead-ended.
If the next step is to build upon "building blocks" I'd like to see THOSE blocks thoroughly tested, as math libraries are to a great degree, and not ad-hoc. The most annoying thing I find about LLM's is their propensity to reinvent wheels every time. This may be inherent in the design, I don't know. But a serious business or other project should insist on reliable reusable blocks.
Perhaps the current situation is more like rounding up animals after they broke out of the zoo than caring for them, before it stabilizes if it ever does.
I nag people here to meet some real unmet needs, particularly for seniors, not just because I am one, but because I have had a lot of ideas on what to do, especially about building community and services. The internet is just too savage a place for most. I'll bet that the people approaching senior status will bitch about the lack of real self-driving cars, exoskeletons, and fraud-proof networks of trust, compared to the chainsaw internet of scams --- that THEY could have solved.
Create a "programmable internet" to get around all the annoyances, traps and dark patterns? I do it all the time, working around annoyances, popups, scams, paywalls. The average person isn't going to be able to do these things, not even with the leveling up of programming, but perhaps via proxy. Just as everyone seems to be putting up a shield, with endless CAPTCHAS (and I have browser extentions to solve these relentless eye exams) maybe users need a shield themselves.
But I ramble.
Good luck in whatever you decide to do.
Tally your strengths and strongest interests. Enjoy your family. I was posting elsewhere about some of the insane managers I've endured but memories and photos (some scanned from the film days) of being a parent are the real heart and soul of life. I have read some really insightful articles on what skills will be needed in the next few years and I'll summarize as I make sense of them.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prograph
Which business will hire a consultant who doesn't fully endorse the AI-everything religion?
Classic Dunning-Kruger, do they show respect for your skills?
This is enforced in my company so buckle up