I wonder how would this work in terms of fairness to the team that's likely to win. If a match is abandoned, what does it mean for progressing in a tournament, etc. Could there be a perverse incentive to cause a black card to abort a lost game? I'm sure this has all been thought through, but the article doesn't seem to say anything about it.
The new procedure targets inappropriate behavior by parents and spectators directed at children, coaching staff members, referees, match officials, or other parents and spectators. This includes, but is not limited to:
Verbal abuse (insults or profanity), as well as physical assault or shoving of one’s own children;
Verbal abuse, physical assault, or shoving of staff members of one’s own team;
Verbal abuse, physical assault, or shoving of players or staff members of the opposing team;
Continuous challenging, verbal abuse, physical assault, or shoving of referees and match officials;
Verbal or physical altercations with other parents or spectators.
<<<<<<
If that's the situation in, and it can't be stressed enough, a children soccer game, then yes, abandoning the match is probably the right choice. I assume they are only defining a formal procedure for practices that already exist.
>If that's the situation in, and it can't be stressed enough, a children soccer game
It's not extremely common in my area, but it is more common than you would think. Parents treat their children like lottery tickets when it comes to athletics. And God help you if you're the unfortunate umpire at a travel league game that makes a questionable call.
The youth sports industry is fucking gross and nobody seems to notice.
Source: we will not let our children participate in travel leagues and they do not want to participate in them either, for this specific reason.
I umpired baseball in my early teens and even 30 years ago it was bad.
Grown men getting into the face of 14 years old umpires over calls, at games for kids barely out of tee-ball. It just doesn’t matter that much.
I remember a coach who would flip over 20 gallon coolers and send ice and drinks flying in the dugout.. in front of his team of 10 years old umpires olds.
The ref is impartial and their only job is to manage the game according to law. If a team's fans are misbehaving to the point the game must be abandoned, it doesn't matter one iota to the ref if those fans are tanking on purpose. The league can deal with that.
That's placing a lot of faith in the maturity and tactical awareness of a teenager. I don't know about the games in Romania, but here in the US, the youth soccer referees are mostly older youths.
In the US, only the youngest games have teenage refs (U10 and younger). And even then, it is only common in the lower competitive tiers. Competitive travel/select league games generally have adult refs (national and regional leagues).
The money is pretty decent for two hours of work (and you can work games back to back to back).
Your comment implies the youth refs are the exception, but the VAST majority of play are at these lower competitive levels, and it is FAR more common to have youth or inexperienced refs than otherwise.
Result is a permanent cancellation? Does that mean the match is nullified or the winner at the time wins? Either way, one team could draw a strategic black card. Seems like cancellation of the match is not the correct outcome. What about penalizing the harassing team? A red card result for the team (down a player for the next game). This seems like an odd way to handle abusive behavior from parents. Abandoning the current game may be good if parents are behaving that way, but there needs to be a serious consequence for the parent's team too. Otherwise it will just be another tool.
You can't start doing this, the only way it ends is with a full rainbow deck of cards that the referee has to spend 5 minutes digging through every time someone gets tripped.
> The black card being brandished will be the final part of a three-step process. In the first instance, the referee will temporarily suspend the match and ask coaches to speak directly to its team’s supporters and parents, while an announcement will also be communicated to supporters should a public address system be available.
> Should the behaviour continue, the referee will suspend the match for 10 minutes and send the teams off the pitch to their dressing room while once again asking coaches to attempt to de-escalate the behaviour of those in the stands.
> The FRF then detail the process behind using the black card as the final step: “If abusive behaviour persists after play resumes, the referee blows the final whistle. The match is permanently abandoned and cannot be resumed.”
Why is the remedy not simply ejecting the offenders? They get three chances to cancel the game, with the entirety of the punishments being towards people who did nothing wrong?
This is a common misconception. The referee has no control over who is in the stands - they are “outside agents”. Many people think that the referee can eject a spectator, but they can’t. The referee only has authority over the players and coaches.
This is why the first remedy is to ask the coaches to get their parents under control. In general, if the abuse continues, the coach can be carded as that’s the only person the ref can discipline.
From my experience, the refs typically assign responsibility to the head coach of the team the fans represent. It's not the refs job to manage the fans. They are there to manage the game. If the coach or staff determine the problem fans should be removed, they can do that.
I remember a parent being "ejected" when I was younger. Technically, they didn't "have to leave", but social pressure is enough for them to recognize they should leave the situation.
* All of the parents already know who the abusive parent is
* The first warning was the coach talking to the "entire group" (at a natural stopping point). The group dialed it back (there will always be some controversial calls), but that one parent didn't get the message.
* Finally, the game stopped suddenly (ball was in play, but in a neutral position) and they we're directly addressed by the ref.
This caught the abusers attention. This was an abnormal event. They were being addressed directly. Whether they realized they were the problem, they certainly recognized the social pressure. They recognized how embarrassing it was (sadly, they probably didn't realize how embarrassing it was for their kid) and decided to take the ref's suggestion to cool down.
I doubt many refs want this responsibility, even if it were feasible. And I don't think it is feasible in most cases. For instance, how is the ref going to pick out the problem fans while also managing the game itself? And how is the ref supposed to enforce the removal?
Keep in mind these refs are often volunteers, working solo, have no official connection to the teams or field owners.
And there is a ref shortage virtually everywhere, at all levels and sports. Making it more difficult just isn't realistic.
Actual source article: https://www.frf.ro/en/frf-introduces-the-black-card-to-comba...
I wonder how would this work in terms of fairness to the team that's likely to win. If a match is abandoned, what does it mean for progressing in a tournament, etc. Could there be a perverse incentive to cause a black card to abort a lost game? I'm sure this has all been thought through, but the article doesn't seem to say anything about it.
Quoting from the official website:
>>>>>>
The new procedure targets inappropriate behavior by parents and spectators directed at children, coaching staff members, referees, match officials, or other parents and spectators. This includes, but is not limited to:
Verbal abuse (insults or profanity), as well as physical assault or shoving of one’s own children;
Verbal abuse, physical assault, or shoving of staff members of one’s own team;
Verbal abuse, physical assault, or shoving of players or staff members of the opposing team;
Continuous challenging, verbal abuse, physical assault, or shoving of referees and match officials;
Verbal or physical altercations with other parents or spectators.
<<<<<<
If that's the situation in, and it can't be stressed enough, a children soccer game, then yes, abandoning the match is probably the right choice. I assume they are only defining a formal procedure for practices that already exist.
>If that's the situation in, and it can't be stressed enough, a children soccer game
It's not extremely common in my area, but it is more common than you would think. Parents treat their children like lottery tickets when it comes to athletics. And God help you if you're the unfortunate umpire at a travel league game that makes a questionable call.
The youth sports industry is fucking gross and nobody seems to notice.
Source: we will not let our children participate in travel leagues and they do not want to participate in them either, for this specific reason.
I umpired baseball in my early teens and even 30 years ago it was bad.
Grown men getting into the face of 14 years old umpires over calls, at games for kids barely out of tee-ball. It just doesn’t matter that much.
I remember a coach who would flip over 20 gallon coolers and send ice and drinks flying in the dugout.. in front of his team of 10 years old umpires olds.
I imagine this is the referee's call; a ref ought to know better than to abort the game because the losing team is throwing a tactical tantrum.
The ref is impartial and their only job is to manage the game according to law. If a team's fans are misbehaving to the point the game must be abandoned, it doesn't matter one iota to the ref if those fans are tanking on purpose. The league can deal with that.
That's placing a lot of faith in the maturity and tactical awareness of a teenager. I don't know about the games in Romania, but here in the US, the youth soccer referees are mostly older youths.
In the US, only the youngest games have teenage refs (U10 and younger). And even then, it is only common in the lower competitive tiers. Competitive travel/select league games generally have adult refs (national and regional leagues).
The money is pretty decent for two hours of work (and you can work games back to back to back).
Your comment implies the youth refs are the exception, but the VAST majority of play are at these lower competitive levels, and it is FAR more common to have youth or inexperienced refs than otherwise.
Safety is far more important than deciding who won a youth match
I would assume it’s treated as if the team of the offending parent has abandoned the match.
One can imagine overzealous parents tactically causing a scene to nullify a match result.
Basically a red card for spectators. Not sure why it is black.
Did you read the article? The card stops play and can be used to end the match if abuse continues.
Result is a permanent cancellation? Does that mean the match is nullified or the winner at the time wins? Either way, one team could draw a strategic black card. Seems like cancellation of the match is not the correct outcome. What about penalizing the harassing team? A red card result for the team (down a player for the next game). This seems like an odd way to handle abusive behavior from parents. Abandoning the current game may be good if parents are behaving that way, but there needs to be a serious consequence for the parent's team too. Otherwise it will just be another tool.
https://archive.ph/o4V1W
You can't start doing this, the only way it ends is with a full rainbow deck of cards that the referee has to spend 5 minutes digging through every time someone gets tripped.
Did you really pull the "slippery slope" on a change for children football matches to safeguarding them from abuse from spectators?
New way to bully unlocked: join as spectator and throw slurs to force game closure.
In reality, the game needs paused, and to forcably eject bad actors, then resume game.
> The black card being brandished will be the final part of a three-step process. In the first instance, the referee will temporarily suspend the match and ask coaches to speak directly to its team’s supporters and parents, while an announcement will also be communicated to supporters should a public address system be available.
> Should the behaviour continue, the referee will suspend the match for 10 minutes and send the teams off the pitch to their dressing room while once again asking coaches to attempt to de-escalate the behaviour of those in the stands.
> The FRF then detail the process behind using the black card as the final step: “If abusive behaviour persists after play resumes, the referee blows the final whistle. The match is permanently abandoned and cannot be resumed.”
Why is the remedy not simply ejecting the offenders? They get three chances to cancel the game, with the entirety of the punishments being towards people who did nothing wrong?
This is a common misconception. The referee has no control over who is in the stands - they are “outside agents”. Many people think that the referee can eject a spectator, but they can’t. The referee only has authority over the players and coaches.
This is why the first remedy is to ask the coaches to get their parents under control. In general, if the abuse continues, the coach can be carded as that’s the only person the ref can discipline.
From my experience, the refs typically assign responsibility to the head coach of the team the fans represent. It's not the refs job to manage the fans. They are there to manage the game. If the coach or staff determine the problem fans should be removed, they can do that.
If it's anything like the UK then it's likely the games are played in a public space like a park, so it might not be possible to eject the parent.
I remember a parent being "ejected" when I was younger. Technically, they didn't "have to leave", but social pressure is enough for them to recognize they should leave the situation.
* All of the parents already know who the abusive parent is
* The first warning was the coach talking to the "entire group" (at a natural stopping point). The group dialed it back (there will always be some controversial calls), but that one parent didn't get the message.
* Finally, the game stopped suddenly (ball was in play, but in a neutral position) and they we're directly addressed by the ref.
This caught the abusers attention. This was an abnormal event. They were being addressed directly. Whether they realized they were the problem, they certainly recognized the social pressure. They recognized how embarrassing it was (sadly, they probably didn't realize how embarrassing it was for their kid) and decided to take the ref's suggestion to cool down.
I don't buy it. You can kick someone out of a park for not following the rules of the park. The refs just need to be empowered.
You don't need any real legal basis. We're talking about kids sporting events. Social pressure is often enough.
You don't want to be the reason your kids team lost. You don't want your kid getting kicked of their team for your behavior.
I doubt many refs want this responsibility, even if it were feasible. And I don't think it is feasible in most cases. For instance, how is the ref going to pick out the problem fans while also managing the game itself? And how is the ref supposed to enforce the removal?
Keep in mind these refs are often volunteers, working solo, have no official connection to the teams or field owners.
And there is a ref shortage virtually everywhere, at all levels and sports. Making it more difficult just isn't realistic.
There is nobody to do that. And nobody to make sure they don’t just come straight back.