C# dev here: it’s amazing how different this is from a Microsoft release. First off, Oracle are doing versions at approximately twice the cadence. But also, and I’m guessing this is a function of the much larger Java audience: things rarely get two preview versions in a proper release. Updates in beta versions, yes, all the time. It also feels like Microsoft are bundling a lot more into the platform and leaving less to the community. Again, probably an artifact of the different sizes of the communities. Also, the page reads like an open source “We’re finished, we’re tired.” announcement rather than the razzmatazz of a Microsoft release.
> First off, Oracle are doing versions at approximately twice the cadence
Is that actually a good thing?
But Oracle started playing a game, for better or worse, where they decided to couple the "language version" with a single specific runtime's release schedule. For example, in "Java 27" there are exactly 0 language changes and 1 minor feature addition to the TLS library.
Everything else is OpenJDK runtime internals which don't impact the language or how you use it. So if you don't use OpenJDK (such as if you use Oracle's other runtime, GraalVM), then Java 27 basically doesn't even exist at all. Skimming the past couple of C# releases, it doesn't look like Microsoft is playing that game, so the release cadence will of course be different.
The Java language and runtime have been co-designed as a unified platform for many years now. Virtually every significant feature has language, library, and VM people working on it, and we often don't even know when we start how much of the feature would be in the language, library, or VM. Consequently, there is no "language version" or a "runtime version". There's only a platform version, which is defined in a single spec approved by the JCP (https://openjdk.org/projects/jdk/27/spec/). This also makes things easier with regards to compatibility and evolution.
You’re only counting JEPs, which are only for more involved features. There are lots of changes to the JDK apis that are used by other runtimes. See, for instance: https://javaalmanac.io/jdk/27/apidiff/26/.
Admittedly, the terminology here is almost designed to be maximally confusing, and I’ve never read a good post that laid out how everything relates.
There are also bug-fixes and performance improvements that are not going to show on the page I linked.
I do think it’s plausible this is a smaller release. Not that this was the real point of the discussion, but I think it’s still just a good idea to have more than one release a year. It keeps things moving smoothly, and lowers the cost of missing a release, which has beneficial effects.
There's not really a second C# runtime. Java has several, some based on the Openjdk, but a few that are completely new like OpenJ9 and Graal.
The closest C# has is mono.
This sort of thing is bound to happen with that situation. Heck, it happens with C++ whenever a new C++ version comes out. Some C++11 features took years to make their way into all the compilers.
Graal is based on OpenJDK. OpenJ9 while using a separate JVM and JIT leverage the openjdk class path as well as the build environment and various other things.
I don’t think there’s a single alternate implementation that doesn’t leverage a good chunk of openjdk somehow
> Microsoft are bundling a lot more into the platform and leaving less to the community.
This is a good thing. In Java everything has multiple community offerings, so before doing anything you have to evaluate the community offerings and decide which one to go with. If you go with the wrong one you may end up having to switch at some point, and that can be painful. This happens so often that most of the time spent when using Java is doing these evaluations and comparisons. With C# you just use the one built into .NET platform. Saves a ton of time.
Sometimes the thing built into the .NET platform is great, sometime it is just crap but developers will use it anyway and it sets back the ecosystem.
There is this division of labor between systems programmers and application programmers and often we think systems programmers are better because they know more about algorithms and data structures and compilers and assembly language and such. On the other hand, application developers understand how to reconcile the mental model of managers and employees and customers with computers, reality and common sense and, once they get experienced, see the commonalities between all the run-of-the-mill bizapps that we are coding all the time.
Application programmers do a lot better at applications framework than systems programmers and make things like Ruby on Rails and Spring. Systems programmers make terrible things like ASP.NET MVC (I worked out a way to do MVC with ordinary ASP.NET, why couldn't they, with access to the platform internals?)
If someone wants to create a project by assembling bits and pieces from different open source products they can, but many just go for Spring (Boot) and call it a day.
All of my projects are based on Spring and I don't really have to look outside of that ecosystem. It almost acts as an aggregator of different open source solutions and often works by abstracting the functionality so that differences are not that big. I recently switched messaging providers and didn't have to change much of my code.
Yep, with Spring Boot development is so easy, and even decade old projects are mostly easy to upgrade. I don't have experience from C# or .NET development, but at least compared to Python and especially JS ecosystems it's so much better.
I never thought of Java being the 'move fast ~and break things~' alternative over .NET, but Java has a faster release schedule to get features out sooner.
We often use the latest version of Java at my work place. We haven't had any issues with upgrading, so there's no benefit of waiting for an LTS. There's no big process behind it either. The developers just quietly change the version as part of keeping the project up to date (BAU)
It may be that we are shielded from edge cases because we are based on Spring, which is probably the most tested piece of software before new versions of Java are released. But it's my impression that the risk of upgrading to a new version of Java is not the same today as it was in the past. The only advantage of an LTS is that it is supported longer, so that you can postpone the upgrade if you really want. It's not as if the intermediate releases are inferior or less safe.
>> Oracle are doing versions at approximately twice the cadence.
This has nothing to do with Oracle. All good that you hear from Java in the last few years, is the great community and good old people from Sun working at Oracle.
I kind of wish C# would slowdown releases in some areas. I have not been a huge fan of some of the changes in the past year. I love the performance changes and bits of functionality here and there, but the syntax-sugar is getting annoying.
You don't really have to use the latest C# version, though. Install the latest .NET and you get the performance improvements without usually having to change anything about your code.
Interesting take, how is optional functionality annoying? Isn't the fact that it's just sugar a huge benefit? Us old timers can simply stick to what we're familiar with.
Because unless you are the only person maintaining your codebase other people in your organization will start using the cool new syntax sugar and optional functionality. So you will be forced to deal with it as it starts showing up in your codebase.
"The Java Story" documentary by CultRepo on YouTube is pretty great. A major topic is the release cadence which some other comments here are mentioning / joking about.
It's stable to the point of boring, and there's no shortage of people who know the language and can work with it, it's got best in class tooling, decades worth of libraries almost all very mature. Most of the language's issues are from legacy code bases coded in a style that isn't really relevant to a greenfield project.
Can I trust code I’ve written myself with no guarantees from the language? Maybe. Can I trust code written by dozens of other developers (and/or agents) working on the same project over multiple years? Definitely not.
Most engineers do not have the ability to impose rules by fiat on all of their coworkers. It seems like you're misunderstanding the nature of working on a codebase as an IC when other developers contribute to it. If all of my coworkers don't want a lint rule I propose, I don't get to add it. If all of my other coworkers want to write code in a certain way and approve each other's MRs with code written in that way, I don't get to veto it.
I admit I haven't worked in Java for years, but no project I've seen at my current company (the only one I've worked at since agents have been a useful thing) is anywhere close to removing all dependencies. From what I've seen, people want to spend tokens on new things, not things that are already known to exist. Even if you can reinvent the wheel, it's not something that an employer is going to be particularly happy to subsidize.
When building boring web applications with a sizeable team that need to run for a long time. Hiring developers is easy since there are many, there is nearly no magic and the language is quite strict and type safe so it works well with a large team.
And that "team" nowadays may also consist of many AI agents. In my experience Claude Code for example works very well with a typed, slightly boring language with lots of framework and library support. Because it doesn't compile when you get something wrong, instead of getting a vague runtime issue that Claude can't always see.
I agree with the rest, but there's definitely a lot of magic in Java. This is from both what features the languages makes available (many) and how the community uses them (often). I've had so many hard-to-debug issues in Java over the years due to reflection, annotations, and bytecode manipulation shenanigans.
And another positive point for Java: checked exceptions. It's verbose, but knowing exactly in which ways a function can fail is extremely helpful for building robust applications.
A lot of that is coding style. I’ve also seen a lot of hard-to-debug issues in Python caused by reflection, weird decorators that muck around with name-mangled symbols, and bytecode manipulation. You can even manipulate the traceback object so it’s more difficult to make sense of why the exception comes from.
It took me quite a long time to accept that the recommended unit testing library manipulates bytecode so that the exception message for `assert a == b` prints the values for both.
WRT magic, I've generally thought that was a result of frameworks - Spring, for example. In the past, my feeling was that these impose a sort of meta/configuration language that itself is not checkable at compile time, so you'd get weird runtime errors that are somewhat inexplicable. This was like... 2018 though, so perhaps things have improved.
I'd argue that checked exceptions are still worth it, even though all the problems pointed out do exist. And that's because it works to inform consumers of what a producer is doing. Haskell has the IO and Maybe monads; Java communicates the same information through IOException and other domain exceptions.
Many times I've decided to switch from one function to another, or even an entirely new library, because the checked exceptions told me that it was doing far more than I expected, and I was not comfortable introducing those new failure modes.
It's far from perfect, one still has to handle nulls and wrapped/merged exceptions, but overall I like this language feature.
Mostly I think they are a mistake, like in ordinary application code instead of catching close to the throw you want to do a lot of
try {
...
} finally() {
...
}
to make sure things get torn down that have to be torn down and let the exception go to the top of the unit of work and probably to whatever drives the work unit. You can probably do better than logging the raw exception and moving on to the next work unit but you can do much worse. That is, you want a default "sloppy" error handling approach that's correct that you can do without thinking and avoid other kinds of "sloppy" coding encouraged by checked exception such as catching exceptions locally without doing the right thing globally.
Occasionally though I have built something really sensitive, like an authentication filter for a web site which has at least 5 ways to log in and in that I have a hierarchy of exceptions and use checked exceptions heavily to document all the ways things can go wrong and felt like "the type system really has my back here" but that is like 5% of the Java I write.
Scala's ZIO also demonstrates that they're a great idea and can be perfectly ergonomic, but you need type inference, which Java devs were resistant to for a long time (maybe still are? I remember lots of "how will I ever know what `val a = new Animal()` is???"). If you infer the exception type, they're basically invisible except for when you forget to have some place in your program to handle them, which is exactly what you want.
> but knowing exactly in which ways a function can fail is extremely helpful for building robust applications
I've worked on Java apps that have failed in mysterious ways that no exception could explain. Meanwhile, the overhead of having to call out certain exceptions but not others in language syntax is a bit excessive.
For example, decoding a byte array (or URL encoded form field) into a UTF-8 string means handling a theoretical UnsupportedEncodingException. What the fuck? How the hell can one have a JVM that doesn't support UTF-8? Why does my code need boilerplate that will never run because there might be some broken-ass JVM out there that that doesn't support UTF-8? How did it launch a web server, safely load all the libraries, and accept a web request, and route it to my code without blowing up? "But the encoding scheme might change..." No, it won't change. It's always going to be UTF-8. It will always be UTF-8. If it's not, let it blow up.
These days, Java is mostly used in greenfield software that has to be very reliable, very performant, and last for many years. So it's often the first choice for banking, telecom, finance, government, defence, manufacturing control, logistics and shipping, media streaming, retail, hospitality, healthcare etc.. It's usually not a first pick for more interesting and talked-about software, such as Python type checkers, JS bundlers, or TUI file managers.
I think of Java/Kotlin and Spring as a secret weapon for startups. My workplace was a startup 5 years ago and it's amazing how things just worked as expected. We have tried a few alternatives over the years, such as a few services in Rust, but the people who implemented those have usually seen the advantage of using a stable ecosystem after a few years. It's unfortunately something you need to experience yourself instead of being told by someone else.
They lack in performance, stability (compatibility), observability (telemetry), productivity, or some combination thereof. They are chosen, of course (especially C#; Go and Rust are far behind), but not as much as Java.
Java & Spring is a good choice whenever you want your application to work and be maintainable 10 years from now, without having to replace the framework and half of the libraries you used. I see few good reasons to ever use something with unstable ecosystem (like Javascript with NodeJS) over Java these days.
Stability is a good point, although I am curious where JS and Node stand there now. They're not at the level of Java or .NET by any means, but the JS ecosystem has definitely begun to slowdown over the last few years. I've used express for the server and winston for logging for years and years now and they've very stable at this point.
I guess I'm asking this as an open question: Where are we in the "move fast vs stable" spectrum with Node these days? Definitely not rock solid, but it's moving in that direction I feel.
When you are already familiar with it or work in a Java shop, there are better options if you are starting from scratch, but if you already have 50 guys that know Java it's a pretty big ask for all of them to switch.
Why should anyone use it over Java?
Ms is hostile towards its developers, it creates new versions of things, deprecates previous versions, uses confusing naming for newer versions.. etc.
Microsoft has come a long way since Satya Nadella took over in early 2014. The open-sourcing of .NET Core that same year was a huge step forward. Seeing a 'Microsoft Loves Linux' slide that year was something I did not have on my bingo card. VS Code and the GitHub acquisition demonstrated Microsoft's interest in fostering good relations with developers instead of alienating them. I do wish GitHub had stayed independent, though.
Microsoft is a business and will always put their business objectives first. In my opinion, they have a non-zero amount of evilness. I do not support them jamming Copilot into every available crevice. I still think they make dumb choices, like every imperfect organization. However, C# is a powerful and intuitive language, and for Microsoft shops that already run a lot of Windows and SQL Server it makes a lot of sense.
No shade to the JVM. I've mostly enjoyed my time in that space. I do believe the choice between Java and Kotlin, the wide variety of vendor JDK distributions and IDE fragmentation make the JVM stack a bit more difficult for newcomers to break into.
Because your employer is dick-deep in Microsoft psychosis.
I've been a .NET dev for a decade now. It's perfectly serviceable, but I wouldn't say I truly love the language anymore, but I would take it over Java any day. Entity Framework and LINQ are gifts from the Gods. I have never used an ORM that even comes remotely close.
Also, C# is big in the gaming world. I am working on a game right now, and I was not impressed with what many other languages had to offer. It seems like the kings are still C(++) and C#. Of course, Java can create games, but I would argue that is a "could vs. should" kind of decision.
Unity, Godot, Monogame, Raylib, XNA, FNA, etc. all can use or rely on C#. I have not seen Java be compatible with any of those -- except maybe Raylib? I do not know of anyone nor any games that use it though.
Golang gives you none of nice features of a modern language while being about the same performance tier as Scala or Java, so there's basically no reason not to use Scala.
Every job I've has has used different languages so I don't really understand the need to find a dev for a specific language. I went from network firmware in C to banking application servers in Scala and it took like 2 weeks to ramp up. Not a big deal. Now I write lower level networking stuff again in Go, which seems like its just worse than e.g. C-with-templates (and occasional classes) style C++ so I don't really understand why people like it.
I think it used to be common to just look for smart people and assume they can run with whatever stack. Wasn't that the point of abstract algorithm questions etc. (basically an IQ test)?
It's sad - I spent a good 12 years writing Scala every day and it was the ideal language for my brain. Until it wasn't - sbt got too complex for it's own good, everything became "very smart" developers over-using implicit conversions, you couldn't find a project that wasn't an opinion war on cats vs whatever. It collapsed on the weight of it's own smugness.
go and kotlin aren't it, gleam scratches the itch but I can't justify writing code that would impossible to hire for.
I ported a moderate sized java project to golang. Test suite runs order of magnitude faster now. There isn't much change in terms of the architecture. Pretty much the same algos and data structures. The whole dev tooling runs on a 16 gb mac without swapping now. I used vs code for both
IME they're both in a place where Rust is maybe ~40% faster for a decent CRUD web application server, but with go you need to write much lower level code to get there (e.g. using composable generic iterators will ruin your allocations, so it's all manual for loops). You can write idiomatic high level Scala and get the same performance. Which could be as simple as the go compiler offers no ability to force inlining and has way too low of a complexity threshold, but that basically makes reusable code unusable in high performance situations.
The whole go team's philosophy tends to also revolve around assuming their users don't know what they're doing, which is annoying. Like an inline keyword: thinking you know better than me doesn't mean I'm not going to inline it; it means I'm going to manually write it inline myself in the code, and then think the language sucks because it's tedious, error-prone, and verbose. Or they tend to mark lots of stuff private for no reason, and e.g. with TLS 1.3 they just ignore your config because they think they know better, etc.
java is a great language for server side projects. it is actively maintained, the biggest issues with it have JEPs, and it’s very friendly to AI authors
Whoever works with, or chooses Java, is not doing it for the language itself, be it beautiful or not. Java has a huge ecosystem, from battle tested integrations to optimized images to build pipelines to whatever, so at the same you're buying access to all this world (yes, more than an environment). And of course transferable skills. I'm not saying Java is alone offering this, also not saying every feature is the best, but you can have them all, and even choose from different options.
I use Java for hobby projects, I think it's design choices make it a nice minimalist language for "classic OOP" style: dynamic dispatch, encapsulation etc.
Nowadays a lot of code is written with mostly procedural style with some functional characteristics, I wouldn't use Java for that.
Java's ecosystem is lingering since Oracle brought the language, and it's at the point where you should really look if the things you want to use are still in the state of the art, or if they felt behind every other language.
And if you are starting from scratch, whatever part of the ecosystem you use, I'm not optimist on its situation improving with time.
universal null type safety has sadly been discarded as a core concept of Valhalla in my Understanding; that being said, the proposals in Valhalla have null-safety as a side effect, but only under certain conditions.
I've been using the Vector APIs for years now, and I'm still waiting for them to GA!
They are useful for neural information retrieval (RAG, memory), which relies heavily on content vectorization and similarity matching using their dot products.
Language that runs on the explicit design philosophy of letting other languages experiment first and then incorporating their lessons learned once the dust has settled is late to implement a feature.
C# dev here: it’s amazing how different this is from a Microsoft release. First off, Oracle are doing versions at approximately twice the cadence. But also, and I’m guessing this is a function of the much larger Java audience: things rarely get two preview versions in a proper release. Updates in beta versions, yes, all the time. It also feels like Microsoft are bundling a lot more into the platform and leaving less to the community. Again, probably an artifact of the different sizes of the communities. Also, the page reads like an open source “We’re finished, we’re tired.” announcement rather than the razzmatazz of a Microsoft release.
> First off, Oracle are doing versions at approximately twice the cadence
Is that actually a good thing?
But Oracle started playing a game, for better or worse, where they decided to couple the "language version" with a single specific runtime's release schedule. For example, in "Java 27" there are exactly 0 language changes and 1 minor feature addition to the TLS library.
Everything else is OpenJDK runtime internals which don't impact the language or how you use it. So if you don't use OpenJDK (such as if you use Oracle's other runtime, GraalVM), then Java 27 basically doesn't even exist at all. Skimming the past couple of C# releases, it doesn't look like Microsoft is playing that game, so the release cadence will of course be different.
The Java language and runtime have been co-designed as a unified platform for many years now. Virtually every significant feature has language, library, and VM people working on it, and we often don't even know when we start how much of the feature would be in the language, library, or VM. Consequently, there is no "language version" or a "runtime version". There's only a platform version, which is defined in a single spec approved by the JCP (https://openjdk.org/projects/jdk/27/spec/). This also makes things easier with regards to compatibility and evolution.
You’re only counting JEPs, which are only for more involved features. There are lots of changes to the JDK apis that are used by other runtimes. See, for instance: https://javaalmanac.io/jdk/27/apidiff/26/.
Admittedly, the terminology here is almost designed to be maximally confusing, and I’ve never read a good post that laid out how everything relates.
Fair, although even there I don't know if I'd call that "lots" at just 23 added or modified methods that aren't in preview
There are also bug-fixes and performance improvements that are not going to show on the page I linked.
I do think it’s plausible this is a smaller release. Not that this was the real point of the discussion, but I think it’s still just a good idea to have more than one release a year. It keeps things moving smoothly, and lowers the cost of missing a release, which has beneficial effects.
There's not really a second C# runtime. Java has several, some based on the Openjdk, but a few that are completely new like OpenJ9 and Graal.
The closest C# has is mono.
This sort of thing is bound to happen with that situation. Heck, it happens with C++ whenever a new C++ version comes out. Some C++11 features took years to make their way into all the compilers.
Graal is based on OpenJDK. OpenJ9 while using a separate JVM and JIT leverage the openjdk class path as well as the build environment and various other things.
I don’t think there’s a single alternate implementation that doesn’t leverage a good chunk of openjdk somehow
I didn't read the parent comment as being particularly positive in their description; it didn't sound like it was being stated as a good thing to me.
It's a normal open source announcement without the corporate bullshit. No fatigue. No doom. Just facts! /s
> Microsoft are bundling a lot more into the platform and leaving less to the community.
This is a good thing. In Java everything has multiple community offerings, so before doing anything you have to evaluate the community offerings and decide which one to go with. If you go with the wrong one you may end up having to switch at some point, and that can be painful. This happens so often that most of the time spent when using Java is doing these evaluations and comparisons. With C# you just use the one built into .NET platform. Saves a ton of time.
Sometimes the thing built into the .NET platform is great, sometime it is just crap but developers will use it anyway and it sets back the ecosystem.
There is this division of labor between systems programmers and application programmers and often we think systems programmers are better because they know more about algorithms and data structures and compilers and assembly language and such. On the other hand, application developers understand how to reconcile the mental model of managers and employees and customers with computers, reality and common sense and, once they get experienced, see the commonalities between all the run-of-the-mill bizapps that we are coding all the time.
Application programmers do a lot better at applications framework than systems programmers and make things like Ruby on Rails and Spring. Systems programmers make terrible things like ASP.NET MVC (I worked out a way to do MVC with ordinary ASP.NET, why couldn't they, with access to the platform internals?)
If someone wants to create a project by assembling bits and pieces from different open source products they can, but many just go for Spring (Boot) and call it a day.
All of my projects are based on Spring and I don't really have to look outside of that ecosystem. It almost acts as an aggregator of different open source solutions and often works by abstracting the functionality so that differences are not that big. I recently switched messaging providers and didn't have to change much of my code.
Yep, with Spring Boot development is so easy, and even decade old projects are mostly easy to upgrade. I don't have experience from C# or .NET development, but at least compared to Python and especially JS ecosystems it's so much better.
> Python and especially JS ecosystems it's so much better.
That's a pretty low bar to beat.
I never thought of Java being the 'move fast ~and break things~' alternative over .NET, but Java has a faster release schedule to get features out sooner.
Seriously, how many are using always the latest releases of Java instead the LTS ones? With LTS ones you have ~2/3 years between the versions.
We often use the latest version of Java at my work place. We haven't had any issues with upgrading, so there's no benefit of waiting for an LTS. There's no big process behind it either. The developers just quietly change the version as part of keeping the project up to date (BAU)
It may be that we are shielded from edge cases because we are based on Spring, which is probably the most tested piece of software before new versions of Java are released. But it's my impression that the risk of upgrading to a new version of Java is not the same today as it was in the past. The only advantage of an LTS is that it is supported longer, so that you can postpone the upgrade if you really want. It's not as if the intermediate releases are inferior or less safe.
>> Oracle are doing versions at approximately twice the cadence.
This has nothing to do with Oracle. All good that you hear from Java in the last few years, is the great community and good old people from Sun working at Oracle.
“The good old people from Sun working at Oracle” is now Oracle as well.
I kind of wish C# would slowdown releases in some areas. I have not been a huge fan of some of the changes in the past year. I love the performance changes and bits of functionality here and there, but the syntax-sugar is getting annoying.
You don't really have to use the latest C# version, though. Install the latest .NET and you get the performance improvements without usually having to change anything about your code.
Interesting take, how is optional functionality annoying? Isn't the fact that it's just sugar a huge benefit? Us old timers can simply stick to what we're familiar with.
Because unless you are the only person maintaining your codebase other people in your organization will start using the cool new syntax sugar and optional functionality. So you will be forced to deal with it as it starts showing up in your codebase.
I don't get this either. You can even lock the language level if you really don't want it, or you can just ignore it.
> Also, the page reads like an open source “We’re finished, we’re tired.”
I mean it's short and concise and there are additional resources that provide more detail. IMHO it's not a bad thing.
razzmatazz? Do you mean marketing lies and self aggrandizement for merely doing shoddy work?
Mads Torgersen's previews and such are enjoyable and upbeat, for example.
"The Java Story" documentary by CultRepo on YouTube is pretty great. A major topic is the release cadence which some other comments here are mentioning / joking about.
Serious question: when should one use Java for greenfield projects in 2026?
Not at all a bad choice.
It's stable to the point of boring, and there's no shortage of people who know the language and can work with it, it's got best in class tooling, decades worth of libraries almost all very mature. Most of the language's issues are from legacy code bases coded in a style that isn't really relevant to a greenfield project.
It’s still missing null safety, right? Which means it’s still a hard no for me.
I have a couple 50k+ loc java projects written entirely by LLMs at this point that have never thrown an NPE.
Same here with go, then Again go doesn't throw!
Have you tried not returning null or constructing incomplete objects?
Can I trust code I’ve written myself with no guarantees from the language? Maybe. Can I trust code written by dozens of other developers (and/or agents) working on the same project over multiple years? Definitely not.
Why don't you have any coding standards? If you're working with agents in particular, catching and enforcing this stuff should be easier than ever.
Most engineers do not have the ability to impose rules by fiat on all of their coworkers. It seems like you're misunderstanding the nature of working on a codebase as an IC when other developers contribute to it. If all of my coworkers don't want a lint rule I propose, I don't get to add it. If all of my other coworkers want to write code in a certain way and approve each other's MRs with code written in that way, I don't get to veto it.
Do you never use external libraries?
With agents, we're getting there.
I admit I haven't worked in Java for years, but no project I've seen at my current company (the only one I've worked at since agents have been a useful thing) is anywhere close to removing all dependencies. From what I've seen, people want to spend tokens on new things, not things that are already known to exist. Even if you can reinvent the wheel, it's not something that an employer is going to be particularly happy to subsidize.
You can either use Kotlin then, or simply use java and nullability annotations, they have good support in both IDEs and analysis tools
I use Kotlin as my main language and I’m very satisfied with it.
Any serious project will be using NullAway and annotating everything (or, indeed, using Kotlin).
Otherwise, yeah, you're still in for a world of pain.
When building boring web applications with a sizeable team that need to run for a long time. Hiring developers is easy since there are many, there is nearly no magic and the language is quite strict and type safe so it works well with a large team.
And that "team" nowadays may also consist of many AI agents. In my experience Claude Code for example works very well with a typed, slightly boring language with lots of framework and library support. Because it doesn't compile when you get something wrong, instead of getting a vague runtime issue that Claude can't always see.
> there is nearly no magic
I agree with the rest, but there's definitely a lot of magic in Java. This is from both what features the languages makes available (many) and how the community uses them (often). I've had so many hard-to-debug issues in Java over the years due to reflection, annotations, and bytecode manipulation shenanigans.
And another positive point for Java: checked exceptions. It's verbose, but knowing exactly in which ways a function can fail is extremely helpful for building robust applications.
A lot of that is coding style. I’ve also seen a lot of hard-to-debug issues in Python caused by reflection, weird decorators that muck around with name-mangled symbols, and bytecode manipulation. You can even manipulate the traceback object so it’s more difficult to make sense of why the exception comes from.
It took me quite a long time to accept that the recommended unit testing library manipulates bytecode so that the exception message for `assert a == b` prints the values for both.
I haven't really been in the java space for a while now, but I recall there being a fair bit of criticism[1][2] of checked exceptions over the years.
[1] https://www.javacodegeeks.com/2026/01/javas-checked-exceptio...
[2] https://reflectoring.io/do-not-use-checked-exceptions/
WRT magic, I've generally thought that was a result of frameworks - Spring, for example. In the past, my feeling was that these impose a sort of meta/configuration language that itself is not checkable at compile time, so you'd get weird runtime errors that are somewhat inexplicable. This was like... 2018 though, so perhaps things have improved.
I'd argue that checked exceptions are still worth it, even though all the problems pointed out do exist. And that's because it works to inform consumers of what a producer is doing. Haskell has the IO and Maybe monads; Java communicates the same information through IOException and other domain exceptions.
Many times I've decided to switch from one function to another, or even an entirely new library, because the checked exceptions told me that it was doing far more than I expected, and I was not comfortable introducing those new failure modes.
It's far from perfect, one still has to handle nulls and wrapped/merged exceptions, but overall I like this language feature.
Checked exceptions are controversial mostly because a lot of the core APIs use them in places where it's pointless to check, like IOException.
Using them correctly can be great tho.
Mostly I think they are a mistake, like in ordinary application code instead of catching close to the throw you want to do a lot of
to make sure things get torn down that have to be torn down and let the exception go to the top of the unit of work and probably to whatever drives the work unit. You can probably do better than logging the raw exception and moving on to the next work unit but you can do much worse. That is, you want a default "sloppy" error handling approach that's correct that you can do without thinking and avoid other kinds of "sloppy" coding encouraged by checked exception such as catching exceptions locally without doing the right thing globally.Occasionally though I have built something really sensitive, like an authentication filter for a web site which has at least 5 ways to log in and in that I have a hierarchy of exceptions and use checked exceptions heavily to document all the ways things can go wrong and felt like "the type system really has my back here" but that is like 5% of the Java I write.
Scala's ZIO also demonstrates that they're a great idea and can be perfectly ergonomic, but you need type inference, which Java devs were resistant to for a long time (maybe still are? I remember lots of "how will I ever know what `val a = new Animal()` is???"). If you infer the exception type, they're basically invisible except for when you forget to have some place in your program to handle them, which is exactly what you want.
I agree, to name a few:
- Annotation processing: if you know Lombok, MapStruct.
- Class loader.
- Reflection.
- Garbage collection.
> but knowing exactly in which ways a function can fail is extremely helpful for building robust applications
I've worked on Java apps that have failed in mysterious ways that no exception could explain. Meanwhile, the overhead of having to call out certain exceptions but not others in language syntax is a bit excessive.
For example, decoding a byte array (or URL encoded form field) into a UTF-8 string means handling a theoretical UnsupportedEncodingException. What the fuck? How the hell can one have a JVM that doesn't support UTF-8? Why does my code need boilerplate that will never run because there might be some broken-ass JVM out there that that doesn't support UTF-8? How did it launch a web server, safely load all the libraries, and accept a web request, and route it to my code without blowing up? "But the encoding scheme might change..." No, it won't change. It's always going to be UTF-8. It will always be UTF-8. If it's not, let it blow up.
Perhaps you are the trip you expected to blow up first.
These days, Java is mostly used in greenfield software that has to be very reliable, very performant, and last for many years. So it's often the first choice for banking, telecom, finance, government, defence, manufacturing control, logistics and shipping, media streaming, retail, hospitality, healthcare etc.. It's usually not a first pick for more interesting and talked-about software, such as Python type checkers, JS bundlers, or TUI file managers.
I think of Java/Kotlin and Spring as a secret weapon for startups. My workplace was a startup 5 years ago and it's amazing how things just worked as expected. We have tried a few alternatives over the years, such as a few services in Rust, but the people who implemented those have usually seen the advantage of using a stable ecosystem after a few years. It's unfortunately something you need to experience yourself instead of being told by someone else.
Why not Go, Rust, or C#?
They lack in performance, stability (compatibility), observability (telemetry), productivity, or some combination thereof. They are chosen, of course (especially C#; Go and Rust are far behind), but not as much as Java.
Go and Rust have much worse tooling for enterprise-level collaboration
Do they?
It felt like every dev that worked on our Java behemoth at a previous job was elated to switch to Go.
Java & Spring is a good choice whenever you want your application to work and be maintainable 10 years from now, without having to replace the framework and half of the libraries you used. I see few good reasons to ever use something with unstable ecosystem (like Javascript with NodeJS) over Java these days.
Stability is a good point, although I am curious where JS and Node stand there now. They're not at the level of Java or .NET by any means, but the JS ecosystem has definitely begun to slowdown over the last few years. I've used express for the server and winston for logging for years and years now and they've very stable at this point.
I guess I'm asking this as an open question: Where are we in the "move fast vs stable" spectrum with Node these days? Definitely not rock solid, but it's moving in that direction I feel.
Not just the time, but the environment, the OS as well. Where you can run JVM, there's a pretty good chance you can run your app.
When you are already familiar with it or work in a Java shop, there are better options if you are starting from scratch, but if you already have 50 guys that know Java it's a pretty big ask for all of them to switch.
Why not Kotlin?
Here is a niche one:
When you want to make a game and support modding with pretty much zero development effort.
Same question for .net or C#
Why should anyone use it over Java? Ms is hostile towards its developers, it creates new versions of things, deprecates previous versions, uses confusing naming for newer versions.. etc.
Microsoft has come a long way since Satya Nadella took over in early 2014. The open-sourcing of .NET Core that same year was a huge step forward. Seeing a 'Microsoft Loves Linux' slide that year was something I did not have on my bingo card. VS Code and the GitHub acquisition demonstrated Microsoft's interest in fostering good relations with developers instead of alienating them. I do wish GitHub had stayed independent, though.
Microsoft is a business and will always put their business objectives first. In my opinion, they have a non-zero amount of evilness. I do not support them jamming Copilot into every available crevice. I still think they make dumb choices, like every imperfect organization. However, C# is a powerful and intuitive language, and for Microsoft shops that already run a lot of Windows and SQL Server it makes a lot of sense.
No shade to the JVM. I've mostly enjoyed my time in that space. I do believe the choice between Java and Kotlin, the wide variety of vendor JDK distributions and IDE fragmentation make the JVM stack a bit more difficult for newcomers to break into.
Because your employer is dick-deep in Microsoft psychosis.
I've been a .NET dev for a decade now. It's perfectly serviceable, but I wouldn't say I truly love the language anymore, but I would take it over Java any day. Entity Framework and LINQ are gifts from the Gods. I have never used an ORM that even comes remotely close.
Also, C# is big in the gaming world. I am working on a game right now, and I was not impressed with what many other languages had to offer. It seems like the kings are still C(++) and C#. Of course, Java can create games, but I would argue that is a "could vs. should" kind of decision.
Unity, Godot, Monogame, Raylib, XNA, FNA, etc. all can use or rely on C#. I have not seen Java be compatible with any of those -- except maybe Raylib? I do not know of anyone nor any games that use it though.
When you work at a Java shop. Kotlin is much nicer if you have to run on the JVM but aren't restricted to Java.
When you think a garbage collected language is a good fit for whatever you're building?
Wouldn't you go with golang in that case?
Golang gives you none of nice features of a modern language while being about the same performance tier as Scala or Java, so there's basically no reason not to use Scala.
Golang is faster and use way less memory than Java, never wonder why you never see Kubernetes controller / sidecar is Java?
As for Scala it's pretty much a dead language, no one work with it and it's impossible to find dev for it.
10 years ago I was moving Scala code back to regular Java.
Every job I've has has used different languages so I don't really understand the need to find a dev for a specific language. I went from network firmware in C to banking application servers in Scala and it took like 2 weeks to ramp up. Not a big deal. Now I write lower level networking stuff again in Go, which seems like its just worse than e.g. C-with-templates (and occasional classes) style C++ so I don't really understand why people like it.
I think it used to be common to just look for smart people and assume they can run with whatever stack. Wasn't that the point of abstract algorithm questions etc. (basically an IQ test)?
It's sad - I spent a good 12 years writing Scala every day and it was the ideal language for my brain. Until it wasn't - sbt got too complex for it's own good, everything became "very smart" developers over-using implicit conversions, you couldn't find a project that wasn't an opinion war on cats vs whatever. It collapsed on the weight of it's own smugness.
go and kotlin aren't it, gleam scratches the itch but I can't justify writing code that would impossible to hire for.
scala situation is a real shame.
I ported a moderate sized java project to golang. Test suite runs order of magnitude faster now. There isn't much change in terms of the architecture. Pretty much the same algos and data structures. The whole dev tooling runs on a 16 gb mac without swapping now. I used vs code for both
IME they're both in a place where Rust is maybe ~40% faster for a decent CRUD web application server, but with go you need to write much lower level code to get there (e.g. using composable generic iterators will ruin your allocations, so it's all manual for loops). You can write idiomatic high level Scala and get the same performance. Which could be as simple as the go compiler offers no ability to force inlining and has way too low of a complexity threshold, but that basically makes reusable code unusable in high performance situations.
The whole go team's philosophy tends to also revolve around assuming their users don't know what they're doing, which is annoying. Like an inline keyword: thinking you know better than me doesn't mean I'm not going to inline it; it means I'm going to manually write it inline myself in the code, and then think the language sucks because it's tedious, error-prone, and verbose. Or they tend to mark lots of stuff private for no reason, and e.g. with TLS 1.3 they just ignore your config because they think they know better, etc.
You could, but it's not as fast as Java, especially under heavy workloads, its telemetry is nowhere near as good, and it's much less popular.
I would, or C#
JavaFX is fairly high up for "I want to run the same UI on Mac and Windows, and I don't want it to be an Electron web app in a box".
java is a great language for server side projects. it is actively maintained, the biggest issues with it have JEPs, and it’s very friendly to AI authors
I wrote about it 13 years ago, some of it still stands true. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5857495
Jruby is nice - runs Ruby on a Java Virtual Machine with full concurrency and Ahead Of Time compilation
Whoever works with, or chooses Java, is not doing it for the language itself, be it beautiful or not. Java has a huge ecosystem, from battle tested integrations to optimized images to build pipelines to whatever, so at the same you're buying access to all this world (yes, more than an environment). And of course transferable skills. I'm not saying Java is alone offering this, also not saying every feature is the best, but you can have them all, and even choose from different options.
I use Java for hobby projects, I think it's design choices make it a nice minimalist language for "classic OOP" style: dynamic dispatch, encapsulation etc.
Nowadays a lot of code is written with mostly procedural style with some functional characteristics, I wouldn't use Java for that.
Java's ecosystem is lingering since Oracle brought the language, and it's at the point where you should really look if the things you want to use are still in the state of the art, or if they felt behind every other language.
And if you are starting from scratch, whatever part of the ecosystem you use, I'm not optimist on its situation improving with time.
Project Valhalla will go into Java 28 (next year, and preview version).
Fingers crossed I'll manage to use null type safety in my lifetime.
> Project Valhalla will go into Java 28
Unfortunatley without specialized generics and without the performance benefits that are supposed to come with it. They were too slow with Valhalla.
universal null type safety has sadly been discarded as a core concept of Valhalla in my Understanding; that being said, the proposals in Valhalla have null-safety as a side effect, but only under certain conditions.
When (if) null safety ships, I‘m not sure I can justify using Kotlin any longer.
Java simply got too nice.
Multiplatform and Compose come to mind as Kotlin differentiators. I agree rest of the language actually slowly falls behind
A first step of Valhalla that is ...
I've been using the Vector APIs for years now, and I'm still waiting for them to GA!
They are useful for neural information retrieval (RAG, memory), which relies heavily on content vectorization and similarity matching using their dot products.
Knock knock
Who's there?
long pause
Java
High Speed Trading team using Java looking puzzled ....
https://lmax-exchange.github.io/disruptor/
Agentically convert to rust, get more trades faster
This thing is a-ma-zing. It is truly a wonder. It is something to behold. The "Disruptor" pattern.-
Oh, I see, jokes from 30 years ago!
Alternatively:
Knock, knock
who's there
It's the 90s, wanting their jokes back
The long pause between the knock and the answer took 30 years
And still funny today, not all jokes survive that long.
Don't put a 30gb heap on m4 boxes and you'll be okay
It's on you bc it was (arguably but still) dead 17 years ago.
edit: don't get me wrong, i am not here to hate java, but bc i am also ... hm necrophil :)
17 years is a rookie number. Take C# auto-properties, for example: 19 years ago!
Now try asking, "When did Java get auto-properties?"
News at 11.
Language that runs on the explicit design philosophy of letting other languages experiment first and then incorporating their lessons learned once the dust has settled is late to implement a feature.
G1 is now the default garbage collector in 27.
Sorry I only just set -xXx360NoScopexXx=4G to run that latest version without hitting OOM and you are right, it is indeed quite fast with G1.
You misunderstand, xxx360NoScopexxx is now the default.
> Twelfth Incubator
Are you sure this egg is actually viable?
I mean, I'd love to see it, but...
The JDK team made a decision awhile ago to hold the Vector API until value types are final. That's why the API has been incubating so long.