1. Tooling (as an extension to the mentioned IDE support point). Zig and Rust are both praised for their tooling and I think rightfully so. The C/C++ interop story and the cross-compiling story in Zig are great. From the standpoint of a working practitioner though I think Rust is way ahead. Not surprising given that Zig is much younger, but something to keep in mind.
2. Compile Time Stuff: Here Zig is praised and Rust not so much. I think this is undeserved. Rust has much higher aspirations for their compile time features, namely that outcome must be identical regardless when the code runs. This is a very useful property but makes the task much harder and fundamentally incomparable with Zig comptime.
Zig comptime feels easier and more effective in practice. I've had some fun const evaluating some stuff in Rust, but I needed to use a bunch of annoying imperative hacks because so much of the functional stuff wasn't supported in const context back then. It's probably a bit better these days.
For one of my crates I needed to have a build script make a bunch of lookup tables as separate files for me to `include_bytes!` because at the time I couldn't generate a bunch of floating point conversions in const.
> The first thing that caught me off guard — and honestly, who would’ve expected this to be the memorable part — was IDE support, or the near-total lack of it.
I think when we're looking back on the 2020s we'll be struck by the Allocator obsession
All of the Handmade "C successor" languages seem to have this obsession, including not only Zig but Odin, C3 and Jai.
For some toy problems you can do clever allocator tricks and get a huge perf win. For example Jai and Odin both seem to really want you to write code which can throw away a "per-frame" arena periodically so they're not paying to track allocations in the arena because they're all thrown away at the same time.
But a lot of real world software just isn't that simple. This doesn't make such features worthless, it just means they're one of a thousand tools the experienced developer could want in their toolkit, not really deserving headline status.
AAA games use allocators extensively, and they are more complex pieces of software with higher performance requirements than nearly anything else out there. So I'm not sure what toy problems you're talking about.
Allocators have been in wide use long before the 2020s but I agree there does seem to be a resurgent interest lately. Although I would argue it's part of a more broad trend of focusing data driven design. Which makes sense because accessing main memory is one of the slowest things your program can do.
And those games do so in a language (C++) where allocators is not a headline feature, and is barely even supported at all in the standard library.
The important part is a language where the standard library isn't special, and Rust has this property, too. So in domains where things like per-frame allocators are useful, you can still have them. That capability just isn't cluttering up the more common path where that isn't useful.
Off topic, but I remember fondly the pre-LLM days when I used to love reading about programming languages. I never got a chance to professionally work with Rust, but made some cool hobby projects with it. Would have eventually tried out zig too.
Now it all feels so pointless though. Like memorizing rules to do mental arithmetic. Sure, there is still use for language expertise, but not enough to get excited over new concepts and ideas.
I was thinking about that too recently. We have a new service that we’re trying to publish an SDK for. I don’t like the SDK that was created and kept nitpicking about how verbose certain things are and how “unergonomic” it feels (long tedious type names, annoying redundant constructs, etc) But then I was wondering if for a brand new service/SDK if anyone cares anymore and how much fuss i should be making about that.
I think (for now), it is still relevant. A language is an abstraction, and a good abstraction, like a good LLM harness, can be quite valuable.
Let’s say I’m writing some concurrent code with an LLM. I’d probably feel much safer having it write Rust, rather than C. So even in a post-LLM world, languages will continue to evolve as long as abstractions can be improved.
But do you still have enthusiasm for finding out about new language features or concepts? I'll do what it takes to get the job done, but the passion for it is totally gone.
Yes, as an example structured concurrency in Java (final release in Java 28 perhaps). I think that could totally change how we write concurrent code in that language.
I just upgraded a less important service to Java 27, a few days after its release (several nice features). I think that it's cool that we're no longer stuck with old versions unless we want to be.
That an agent writes most of the code doesn't mean anything to me here.
My examples are Java because that is the main language where I work.
I used Rust extensively pre-LLM, and I'm much happier to serialize my thoughts to Rust than any other language.
I prefer to prototype in Golang since it compiles fast and makes for quick iteration, but at the end I ask the LLM to port the Golang to Rust.
Nice Rust enums for APIs are the chef's kiss.
I absolutely will not write anything in Python or scripting languages anymore. They're too brittle and don't have great devex or deployment stories. Especially when you can just as easily build in a typesafe language with good error handling that compiles down to a single static binary.
Yep, my point tho is more sentimental than technical. Let the LLM figure out the language details and just manage the output and deployment. It's ... not fun
I don’t see the point of letting an LLM generate an article when the topic is your personal, subjective experience which only you, a human, would be able to express.
It's unfortunate, but to come across as genuine now I think you have to actively avoid AI-isms.
In this case it feels AI generated with human polish, or vice versa. A couple tells are "One caveat worth stating up front..." and of course, "...the shape of the language itself...".
Not OP, but I think the leading and trailing paragraphs were mostly human-written (and nice to read), but the memory leak example cases had a very different flavor of prose and code comments that smelled very Claude-y to me
> So anything that has em dashes is now considered LLM generated?
Is that what they said? If that's not what they said, why are you putting words in their mouth in an attempt to weaken their statement into some completely ridiculous stupid strawman that is obviously not actually what they said?
That’s the first thing others point to being LLM-generated. If you see, right after the phrase you quote, there is a question as to what else OP thinks is LLM-generated. I didn’t put words into anyones mouth
“ The language is different from Rust (who could’ve thought that, yeah), but it left a genuinely good impression. It’s straightforward, modern, and blazingly fast. I believe it has real potential to become the true successor to C. On the other hand, it’s still young, and it shows: the shape of the language itself feels unfinished in places, and I suspect it’ll pick up more of the cooler quality-of-life features and syntax sugar as it matures.
As for me, I’d like to keep contributing to the ecosystem, and I will, whenever I come across a project worth building.”
Idk I don’t write either well enough to have a hand in this but losing out all of this for more
Imperative stuff seems like a step back.
“ No functional paradigm
Rust is technically an imperative language, but it draws heavily on functional concepts: zero-cost iterators, lazy evaluation, ADTs, pattern matching, monadic types, traits, closures, and so on. Having also spent time with Haskell and Erlang, I’ve become fairly inclined toward the functional style, and it shows in this library. It leans heavily on FP idioms:
Monadic error control via combinators like Queryable and related types
Monadic-style data types like Data<T> with map, flat_map, reduce, and friends
Pure, immutable transformations
Combinators over iterators instead of loops
Closures for local abstraction
Declarative macros as a small embedded DSL
Sum types and product types”
Modern and blazing fast, what we lost leaving behind languages like Modula-2 and Object Pascal, having newer generations to think C and C++ were the only compiled languages alternatives to scripting languages.
I miss the years of writing CLI tools, web servers and clients, in Ada (and of real-time complex distributed system...). Felt so simple and right and fast and robust. The code is still readable today and maintaining it is a zero effort today. Clean Java without the enterprise BS was a close second in ease of programming - boilerplate be damned.
I'm glad NVIDIA found a way to make GPUs programmable and got us out of the shaders tarpit, but did it have to be C++...
You repeating this weird strawman take a million times doesn't make it true. Why don't you finally just put out some genuinely interesting projects demonstrating how everybody was doing it wrong, so people can make up their own mind and finally be convinced. There must be some true magic in those languages and platforms you mention, that should offset the pain of writing in upper case and with super long KEYWORDs everywhere, and to offset the cost of switching to a culture that has way less mindshare and way less of a software ecosystem around it.
FWIW I've actually worked for 6 months on a large old Delphi project. It was some performance work that, as almost always, mainly required getting the language crap out of the way. In the end I got the job done (100x-1000x speedup) but I wouldn't want to switch back to this ecosystem: Licensing costs, weird language warts there too. A slow moving ecosystem. Ultimately, I just need something that does what I tell it to do, reliably and fast, and that doesn't get in the way.
I’m more than a bit out of my depth discussing the topic, but I’m not sure than imperative-dominant languages will ever really go away or that functional-dominant languages will ever become as popular as C and C++. Ugly as they may be, imperative languages seem to be grokked by humans more readily and are more often than not “good enough” for the most part so it’s difficult to see them losing substantial momentum.
Until there is a machine that is natively functional, there is always going to an incentive to go lower level for more performance.
Even hardware (GPUs) that functional language could trivially exploit, it’s still higher performance to write low level code and manages all the memory imperatively
Two additional points:
1. Tooling (as an extension to the mentioned IDE support point). Zig and Rust are both praised for their tooling and I think rightfully so. The C/C++ interop story and the cross-compiling story in Zig are great. From the standpoint of a working practitioner though I think Rust is way ahead. Not surprising given that Zig is much younger, but something to keep in mind.
2. Compile Time Stuff: Here Zig is praised and Rust not so much. I think this is undeserved. Rust has much higher aspirations for their compile time features, namely that outcome must be identical regardless when the code runs. This is a very useful property but makes the task much harder and fundamentally incomparable with Zig comptime.
Are you saying that you think that Zig does not produce identical outcomes for comptime code regardless of when the code runs? What do you mean?
I assumed that it meant that if you ran code at compile time or at runtime, the results should be exactly the same given the same inputs.
Zig comptime feels easier and more effective in practice. I've had some fun const evaluating some stuff in Rust, but I needed to use a bunch of annoying imperative hacks because so much of the functional stuff wasn't supported in const context back then. It's probably a bit better these days.
For one of my crates I needed to have a build script make a bunch of lookup tables as separate files for me to `include_bytes!` because at the time I couldn't generate a bunch of floating point conversions in const.
> The first thing that caught me off guard — and honestly, who would’ve expected this to be the memorable part — was IDE support, or the near-total lack of it.
I would have completely expected that.
I think when we're looking back on the 2020s we'll be struck by the Allocator obsession
All of the Handmade "C successor" languages seem to have this obsession, including not only Zig but Odin, C3 and Jai.
For some toy problems you can do clever allocator tricks and get a huge perf win. For example Jai and Odin both seem to really want you to write code which can throw away a "per-frame" arena periodically so they're not paying to track allocations in the arena because they're all thrown away at the same time.
But a lot of real world software just isn't that simple. This doesn't make such features worthless, it just means they're one of a thousand tools the experienced developer could want in their toolkit, not really deserving headline status.
AAA games use allocators extensively, and they are more complex pieces of software with higher performance requirements than nearly anything else out there. So I'm not sure what toy problems you're talking about.
Allocators have been in wide use long before the 2020s but I agree there does seem to be a resurgent interest lately. Although I would argue it's part of a more broad trend of focusing data driven design. Which makes sense because accessing main memory is one of the slowest things your program can do.
And those games do so in a language (C++) where allocators is not a headline feature, and is barely even supported at all in the standard library.
The important part is a language where the standard library isn't special, and Rust has this property, too. So in domains where things like per-frame allocators are useful, you can still have them. That capability just isn't cluttering up the more common path where that isn't useful.
Would recommend learning how to use arena allocation. You would have patterns like:
fn run_query(alloc) {
Off topic, but I remember fondly the pre-LLM days when I used to love reading about programming languages. I never got a chance to professionally work with Rust, but made some cool hobby projects with it. Would have eventually tried out zig too.
Now it all feels so pointless though. Like memorizing rules to do mental arithmetic. Sure, there is still use for language expertise, but not enough to get excited over new concepts and ideas.
I was thinking about that too recently. We have a new service that we’re trying to publish an SDK for. I don’t like the SDK that was created and kept nitpicking about how verbose certain things are and how “unergonomic” it feels (long tedious type names, annoying redundant constructs, etc) But then I was wondering if for a brand new service/SDK if anyone cares anymore and how much fuss i should be making about that.
Exactly, hard to see why any of this matters anymore.
I think (for now), it is still relevant. A language is an abstraction, and a good abstraction, like a good LLM harness, can be quite valuable.
Let’s say I’m writing some concurrent code with an LLM. I’d probably feel much safer having it write Rust, rather than C. So even in a post-LLM world, languages will continue to evolve as long as abstractions can be improved.
But do you still have enthusiasm for finding out about new language features or concepts? I'll do what it takes to get the job done, but the passion for it is totally gone.
Yes, as an example structured concurrency in Java (final release in Java 28 perhaps). I think that could totally change how we write concurrent code in that language.
I just upgraded a less important service to Java 27, a few days after its release (several nice features). I think that it's cool that we're no longer stuck with old versions unless we want to be.
That an agent writes most of the code doesn't mean anything to me here.
My examples are Java because that is the main language where I work.
nothing stopping you to code manually
Nothing stopping me from doing a lot of things. But is there any point to it?
I used Rust extensively pre-LLM, and I'm much happier to serialize my thoughts to Rust than any other language.
I prefer to prototype in Golang since it compiles fast and makes for quick iteration, but at the end I ask the LLM to port the Golang to Rust.
Nice Rust enums for APIs are the chef's kiss.
I absolutely will not write anything in Python or scripting languages anymore. They're too brittle and don't have great devex or deployment stories. Especially when you can just as easily build in a typesafe language with good error handling that compiles down to a single static binary.
It still boggles my mind that golang hasnt introduced rust-style enums
Yep, my point tho is more sentimental than technical. Let the LLM figure out the language details and just manage the output and deployment. It's ... not fun
Detailed in depth look at Zig Vs Rust (also ... Vs Go)
https://gist.github.com/corporatepiyush/5382d79192be9737cf3b...
I don’t see the point of letting an LLM generate an article when the topic is your personal, subjective experience which only you, a human, would be able to express.
So anything that has em dashes is now considered LLM generated? What made you think this is generated?
"It's young, and it shows"
"Holds up"
"not a toy, but not a sprawling project either, and ideally.."
"And that’s the trap"
ctrl F "real" -> 6 usages
ctrl F "genuine" -> 4 usages
A number of "<assertion>: <followup>" patterns too which is pretty common of at least Claude.
Are these obvious signs of AI generation?
Each one makes me update my estimate slightly in favour of AI. Also, pangram agrees.
Yes.
It kind of says so at the bottom:
> Disclaimer: styling and error handling throughout this article were cleaned up with the help of AI.
The implication seems to be "light editing", but the LLM styling really comes through, so I guess that tracks.
It's unfortunate, but to come across as genuine now I think you have to actively avoid AI-isms.
In this case it feels AI generated with human polish, or vice versa. A couple tells are "One caveat worth stating up front..." and of course, "...the shape of the language itself...".
Not OP, but I think the leading and trailing paragraphs were mostly human-written (and nice to read), but the memory leak example cases had a very different flavor of prose and code comments that smelled very Claude-y to me
After going over that section again I can see it now.
> So anything that has em dashes is now considered LLM generated?
Is that what they said? If that's not what they said, why are you putting words in their mouth in an attempt to weaken their statement into some completely ridiculous stupid strawman that is obviously not actually what they said?
That’s the first thing others point to being LLM-generated. If you see, right after the phrase you quote, there is a question as to what else OP thinks is LLM-generated. I didn’t put words into anyones mouth
"And honestly"
“ The language is different from Rust (who could’ve thought that, yeah), but it left a genuinely good impression. It’s straightforward, modern, and blazingly fast. I believe it has real potential to become the true successor to C. On the other hand, it’s still young, and it shows: the shape of the language itself feels unfinished in places, and I suspect it’ll pick up more of the cooler quality-of-life features and syntax sugar as it matures.
As for me, I’d like to keep contributing to the ecosystem, and I will, whenever I come across a project worth building.”
Idk I don’t write either well enough to have a hand in this but losing out all of this for more Imperative stuff seems like a step back.
“ No functional paradigm
Rust is technically an imperative language, but it draws heavily on functional concepts: zero-cost iterators, lazy evaluation, ADTs, pattern matching, monadic types, traits, closures, and so on. Having also spent time with Haskell and Erlang, I’ve become fairly inclined toward the functional style, and it shows in this library. It leans heavily on FP idioms:
Monadic error control via combinators like Queryable and related types Monadic-style data types like Data<T> with map, flat_map, reduce, and friends Pure, immutable transformations Combinators over iterators instead of loops Closures for local abstraction Declarative macros as a small embedded DSL Sum types and product types”
Modern and blazing fast, what we lost leaving behind languages like Modula-2 and Object Pascal, having newer generations to think C and C++ were the only compiled languages alternatives to scripting languages.
I miss the years of writing CLI tools, web servers and clients, in Ada (and of real-time complex distributed system...). Felt so simple and right and fast and robust. The code is still readable today and maintaining it is a zero effort today. Clean Java without the enterprise BS was a close second in ease of programming - boilerplate be damned.
I'm glad NVIDIA found a way to make GPUs programmable and got us out of the shaders tarpit, but did it have to be C++...
Also a good one.
You repeating this weird strawman take a million times doesn't make it true. Why don't you finally just put out some genuinely interesting projects demonstrating how everybody was doing it wrong, so people can make up their own mind and finally be convinced. There must be some true magic in those languages and platforms you mention, that should offset the pain of writing in upper case and with super long KEYWORDs everywhere, and to offset the cost of switching to a culture that has way less mindshare and way less of a software ecosystem around it.
FWIW I've actually worked for 6 months on a large old Delphi project. It was some performance work that, as almost always, mainly required getting the language crap out of the way. In the end I got the job done (100x-1000x speedup) but I wouldn't want to switch back to this ecosystem: Licensing costs, weird language warts there too. A slow moving ecosystem. Ultimately, I just need something that does what I tell it to do, reliably and fast, and that doesn't get in the way.
If you don't like, press PgDn.
I’m more than a bit out of my depth discussing the topic, but I’m not sure than imperative-dominant languages will ever really go away or that functional-dominant languages will ever become as popular as C and C++. Ugly as they may be, imperative languages seem to be grokked by humans more readily and are more often than not “good enough” for the most part so it’s difficult to see them losing substantial momentum.
Until there is a machine that is natively functional, there is always going to an incentive to go lower level for more performance.
Even hardware (GPUs) that functional language could trivially exploit, it’s still higher performance to write low level code and manages all the memory imperatively
I would say Rust is a functional language that has been hammered into the shape of C++. It also draws heavily on ML.
I get why, and it makes it a better fit for its obvious “C++ reimagined, cleaner, and better” niche.