Japan blew my mind. You're never more than 5 minutes walk away from a free public restroom in any city or town I visited. They were always clean and supplied.
They show up on Maps apps and have reviews. I remember walking a few minutes more once, in Osaka, to try one that had excellent reviews (it was a fun and original design).
In some more rural areas these became squat potties with no toilet paper, so carry a pack of tissues with you.
I also was pleasantly surprised of the availability when I visited. But I would recommend bringing your own soap. A lot of the restrooms in the more rural areas, and even some places in the cities, don't have any soap. Hand Sanitizer won't kill norovirus, which usually spreads in restrooms.
What's savage is what Japan does to drug users and dealers. If the west did the same, we'd be a lot cleaner, too, since washrooms wouldn't be open door fentanyl naptime rooms. But at what cost?
For what it's worth I think a middle ground leaning closer to the west is the best approach. Save injection sites like the one in Vancouver have been a disaster, however
Turns out when you're an ethnically homogenous, xenophobic, low immigration country that brutally enforces social norms and anti-drug policy, you can achieve enough compliance to have nice public things even in urban environments.
You cannot have high birth rates, high growth, high immigration, libertarian personal freedoms or much innovation however.
There is no perfect design, only different trade-offs.
High trust is a byproduct of an ethnically homogenous society.
I prefer not having good public bathrooms and instead prefer more personal freedoms, economic growth/dynamism, and immigration. But it sounds like you would prefer different trade offs.
I just think its funny that internet populists believe you can have everything. You can't.
At least in print, my sense is that this topic is dominated by angry voices proclaiming that public bathroom are a disgracefully neglected human right. Especially for themselves. But with amazingly little to say about the practical realities on the supply side. Public restrooms don't come from Santa Claus, and they cost a lot both to build and maintain. Then there are the costs and miseries of security. Gratitude toward business providing restrooms seems nonexistent.
(Comparing to, for instance, people campaigning against hunger. Those folks seem keenly aware that food for the needy has to come from somewhere - whether donated or paid for - then be sorted and stored, possibly repackaged and transported, maybe prepared and cooked, then regularly distributed to those needing it. And if you botch even one step, then you have failed at feeding the poor.)
You pay taxes and taxes fund things which are good for society as a whole. It's not that hard. You don't beg for donations. This stuff isn't optional or the result of benevolent benefactors. If you live in society then you contribute to society.
You can't pay janitors enough to deal with degenerates who routinely deliberately destroy public bathrooms in western countries. It's a job for police and the courts, but those are dysfunctional in a way which "more money" doesn't fix.
Result is all the clean and useful bathrooms are private, because only thus can shit-smearing vandals be reasonably excluded (and only then, somewhat.)
This is society. Its origins are people banding together to collectivize violence and its legitimate uses in order to protect themselves from the state of nature in which the strong take what they will and the weak suffer what they must.
Should we also be grateful for restaurants for having seats, or for stores having breathable air?
Cities should not be incompatible with basic human existence. I can bring a bagged lunch and eat it on-the-go. Would people be as open to me taking a shit in a bag on the sidewalk?
> public bathroom are a disgracefully neglected human right.
Well, they are. Just as drinking fountains.
> Public restrooms don't come from Santa Claus, and they cost a lot both to build and maintain. Then there are the costs and miseries of security. Gratitude toward business providing restrooms seems nonexistent.
s/restroom/park/g. Hey, it's still true! And explains why there are almost no public parks around.
Edit: oh, and before someone comments on unhygienicity of drinking fountains: you're not supposed to kiss the nozzle or, heavens forbid, to fellate it to drink. Let about 1/2–1/3 of the top of the spout inside of your mouth and drink it; leave the rest outside.
I live near a park. I watch that drinking fountain. They bathe in there at times. They lift their dogs to drink from it despite. It breaks because they kick the button.
They are the losers, the educated affluent, the youthful of our society.
In Switzerland I did not see such issues with the drinking fountains which are everywhere.
It's certainly a different environment from a large American city, though we also have misbehaving youths and a few drug addicts that are perhaps homeless.
Yes. I am one of those voices. And my argument isn't that they do not cost money. My argument is that we can afford it, but chose to instead give the money to people and companies who already have enough. And I know literally no one who claims public restrooms are free to maintain.
Toilets and water should be basic infrastructure (and in some places they are). Business with toilets are a really unreliable way to offer toilets, since they will all come up with their own rules.
And it is ridiculous to pretend they can't be afforded. Ever been to Japan? Every train station has toilets since the 80s, literally every other store has freely usable public toilets. They all use the same signage. They are clean and free to use.
What is the point of society if not creating an environment within which we all can thrive? Yes I know, some want it to maximize the thriving only for certain (rich) people. I call these egoists.
Exactly. If a business can't afford to provide a bathroom, it can't afford to run a business.
It's like saying child labor should be legalised because your business would go bankrupt without underpaid child workers: it just means your business model isn't viable!
You're absolutely correct, but the sense of entitlement from the typical HN commenter is boundless.
Many of the people who downvoted you may want nice things, but would never contribute back. They're exactly the people who would immediately ruin it. Sometimes the grass really is greener, and it's usually because there's a system at work to keep it that way.
Everyone who downvoted contributes back. They are the people who would not ruin it.
You on the other hand would definitely not want to contribute, and if any were built you'd go out of your way to ruin it, though indirectly (e.g. by working to reduce/remove funding for maintenance)
Varies by culture and class, you'll find some people up in arms about almost any mention of bodily functions.
ie. for some urinate and pee are just as bad as piss or wee.
Luckily my cup runneth over and I can decently speak of pissing, going for a slash, splashing the porcelain and otherwise making water in a multitude of ways in my own locale.
Just view the article as an interesting sign of a shifting social norm. It has been decades now since "shit" and "piss" have been pretty normal, not taboo, words in European English (possibly aided by their resemblance to German and French counterparts that are less profane than the English words), and I had already observed that a softening has been occurring in North American and Australian English at least since social media gave people the opportunity to broadcast their use of the words.
I think it’s been like 20 years since I had to use a truly public toilet.
Is this really such a common occurrence for people? Because I feel like it’s being discussed way too much.
Japan blew my mind. You're never more than 5 minutes walk away from a free public restroom in any city or town I visited. They were always clean and supplied.
They show up on Maps apps and have reviews. I remember walking a few minutes more once, in Osaka, to try one that had excellent reviews (it was a fun and original design).
In some more rural areas these became squat potties with no toilet paper, so carry a pack of tissues with you.
Japan is great, because they realized that if you stop giving a fuck about public debt you can make a great country happen.
I also was pleasantly surprised of the availability when I visited. But I would recommend bringing your own soap. A lot of the restrooms in the more rural areas, and even some places in the cities, don't have any soap. Hand Sanitizer won't kill norovirus, which usually spreads in restrooms.
Use the bidet. Tissues are for savages.
Japan was amazing in these regards. It truly feels liberating when going somewhere means you literally do not need to worry about that specific thing.
When I first went to Japan I felt like we in the west live like fucking savages.
What's savage is what Japan does to drug users and dealers. If the west did the same, we'd be a lot cleaner, too, since washrooms wouldn't be open door fentanyl naptime rooms. But at what cost?
For what it's worth I think a middle ground leaning closer to the west is the best approach. Save injection sites like the one in Vancouver have been a disaster, however
While that's good, Japan has other issues to worry about.
Since there are no trash cans, you have to carry garbage with you until you're back home, or maybe find another store where you can dispose of it.
The toilet paper and tissues in Japan are extremely thin and in my view quite inconvenient.
Turns out when you're an ethnically homogenous, xenophobic, low immigration country that brutally enforces social norms and anti-drug policy, you can achieve enough compliance to have nice public things even in urban environments.
You cannot have high birth rates, high growth, high immigration, libertarian personal freedoms or much innovation however.
There is no perfect design, only different trade-offs.
You didn't even mention high trust society this time, I feel like you're slipping
High trust is a byproduct of an ethnically homogenous society.
I prefer not having good public bathrooms and instead prefer more personal freedoms, economic growth/dynamism, and immigration. But it sounds like you would prefer different trade offs.
I just think its funny that internet populists believe you can have everything. You can't.
Your bewildering obsession with "populism" sure does define your entire worldview
At least in print, my sense is that this topic is dominated by angry voices proclaiming that public bathroom are a disgracefully neglected human right. Especially for themselves. But with amazingly little to say about the practical realities on the supply side. Public restrooms don't come from Santa Claus, and they cost a lot both to build and maintain. Then there are the costs and miseries of security. Gratitude toward business providing restrooms seems nonexistent.
(Comparing to, for instance, people campaigning against hunger. Those folks seem keenly aware that food for the needy has to come from somewhere - whether donated or paid for - then be sorted and stored, possibly repackaged and transported, maybe prepared and cooked, then regularly distributed to those needing it. And if you botch even one step, then you have failed at feeding the poor.)
You pay taxes and taxes fund things which are good for society as a whole. It's not that hard. You don't beg for donations. This stuff isn't optional or the result of benevolent benefactors. If you live in society then you contribute to society.
You can't pay janitors enough to deal with degenerates who routinely deliberately destroy public bathrooms in western countries. It's a job for police and the courts, but those are dysfunctional in a way which "more money" doesn't fix.
Result is all the clean and useful bathrooms are private, because only thus can shit-smearing vandals be reasonably excluded (and only then, somewhat.)
Not optional -> force of men with guns who will kill you unless you bow down. This is good for society.
>This is good for society.
This is society. Its origins are people banding together to collectivize violence and its legitimate uses in order to protect themselves from the state of nature in which the strong take what they will and the weak suffer what they must.
Should we also be grateful for restaurants for having seats, or for stores having breathable air?
Cities should not be incompatible with basic human existence. I can bring a bagged lunch and eat it on-the-go. Would people be as open to me taking a shit in a bag on the sidewalk?
> public bathroom are a disgracefully neglected human right.
Well, they are. Just as drinking fountains.
> Public restrooms don't come from Santa Claus, and they cost a lot both to build and maintain. Then there are the costs and miseries of security. Gratitude toward business providing restrooms seems nonexistent.
s/restroom/park/g. Hey, it's still true! And explains why there are almost no public parks around.
Edit: oh, and before someone comments on unhygienicity of drinking fountains: you're not supposed to kiss the nozzle or, heavens forbid, to fellate it to drink. Let about 1/2–1/3 of the top of the spout inside of your mouth and drink it; leave the rest outside.
I live near a park. I watch that drinking fountain. They bathe in there at times. They lift their dogs to drink from it despite. It breaks because they kick the button.
They are the losers, the educated affluent, the youthful of our society.
They are the problem. What is the solution?
In Switzerland I did not see such issues with the drinking fountains which are everywhere.
It's certainly a different environment from a large American city, though we also have misbehaving youths and a few drug addicts that are perhaps homeless.
Yes. I am one of those voices. And my argument isn't that they do not cost money. My argument is that we can afford it, but chose to instead give the money to people and companies who already have enough. And I know literally no one who claims public restrooms are free to maintain.
Toilets and water should be basic infrastructure (and in some places they are). Business with toilets are a really unreliable way to offer toilets, since they will all come up with their own rules.
And it is ridiculous to pretend they can't be afforded. Ever been to Japan? Every train station has toilets since the 80s, literally every other store has freely usable public toilets. They all use the same signage. They are clean and free to use.
What is the point of society if not creating an environment within which we all can thrive? Yes I know, some want it to maximize the thriving only for certain (rich) people. I call these egoists.
Exactly. If a business can't afford to provide a bathroom, it can't afford to run a business.
It's like saying child labor should be legalised because your business would go bankrupt without underpaid child workers: it just means your business model isn't viable!
That's the thing. No one ever got filthy rich of basic infrastructure.
But that's all the more reason to get and keep the infrastructure working.
You're absolutely correct, but the sense of entitlement from the typical HN commenter is boundless.
Many of the people who downvoted you may want nice things, but would never contribute back. They're exactly the people who would immediately ruin it. Sometimes the grass really is greener, and it's usually because there's a system at work to keep it that way.
Everyone who downvoted contributes back. They are the people who would not ruin it.
You on the other hand would definitely not want to contribute, and if any were built you'd go out of your way to ruin it, though indirectly (e.g. by working to reduce/remove funding for maintenance)
Is it not possible to get your point across using more decent language?
What are you, some sort of fucking nun? It might be sunday but this ain't church
You know the answer is yes. You also know they can, and did, choose not to do that. If you have to object actually object.
The problem with
is few would know WTF the author is referring to.What's wrong with "urinate" or "pee"?
Varies by culture and class, you'll find some people up in arms about almost any mention of bodily functions.
ie. for some urinate and pee are just as bad as piss or wee.
Luckily my cup runneth over and I can decently speak of pissing, going for a slash, splashing the porcelain and otherwise making water in a multitude of ways in my own locale.
Just view the article as an interesting sign of a shifting social norm. It has been decades now since "shit" and "piss" have been pretty normal, not taboo, words in European English (possibly aided by their resemblance to German and French counterparts that are less profane than the English words), and I had already observed that a softening has been occurring in North American and Australian English at least since social media gave people the opportunity to broadcast their use of the words.
What’s wrong with “piss”?