> However, the level of social media amplification around this incident has brought scrutiny that is out of proportion to SSL/TLS’s place in our business.
What a weak minded statement. Just admit you messed up and call it a day.
Immediately and totally exiting the domain is about as close to admit you messed up and call it a day as you'll ever get from a modern company.
The statement can use whatever weasel words it likes, but the action pretty clearly says "we aren't mature enough as an organisation to handle this responsibility." Which would be quite the concern for me, if I were a customer for one of eMudhra's other product lines.
As someone who's well-versed with the "face-saving" aspects of Indian work culture, I can state with clarity that the statement they put out is completely in character.
Folks in India — especially the boomer class — are trepidated by how they're perceived over actual substance and quality of their work (exceptions exist, of course).
> Izzat (Bengali: ইজ্জত; Hindi: इज़्ज़त; Urdu: عزت, romanized: 'izzat, lit. 'honour') literally translated: "respect" is a concept of prestige, dignity, and social respect.
I would consider OP's comment to be born of bigotry and not a genuine examination of how Indian culture within Emudhra is influencing their decision to pull out.
To admit having messed up they would need to include the full private key in the post, which they seem to have decided is still more embarrassing than not including it.
What I hear is that he is saying that the SSL/TLS business is only a small part of their overall business and that they can close that part down as a result of the loss of reputation for that this has rendered.
It's not quite as egregious as someone purposely choosing the key. According to the write up on the Mozilla bugtracker there was a bug in the script used for there key generation ceremony which caused the bad certificates to be generated. Obviously completely unacceptable for a CA, but makes more sense than someone plucking 4 out of the air while generating a root cert.
Yes, but in the end that's not their fault, and in a sense it's good that this happened. It was well understood from the invention of security certificates that private keys might leak and certificates will need to be revoked. Systems that were not designed with this in mind should never have been deployed, and should now be decommissioned and replaced.
It might even be sensible to intentionally revoke a small number of certificates every month, to make sure nobody is complacent.
> Yes, but in the end that's not their fault, and in a sense it's good that this happened.
I am reminded of the US DST changes back in the 2000s: there was all sorts of drama because a lot of software is written in the US, and there was much 'computerization' in the 1990s, but US coders had never personally experienced a DST rule change during that time period, so any change needed a reboot to pick up the new rules.
That drama led to (e.g.) periodic dynamic checking of /etc/localtime on various Unix-y system.
Sometimes you don't realize that things can be improved until to experience situations in which they currently suck.
Google has decided to stop trusting certificates with dual purpose (server and client) and managed to negotiate a decrease in the maximum (SSL/TLS) certificate lifetime because certificate revocation doesn't work.
We've had to rework part of our application and certificate use because of this.
It really is. It's basically chaos monkey for pki.
Code paths and procedures that aren't exercised regularly are broken.
Even better is having a way to reoke keys and big players occasionally include revoked keys in trust chains and blast a warning if the revoked key is considered valid.
I mean, yeah I get your point but also if these pieces of the stack weren't prepared to deal with a compromised CA, then they were also at least a little bit negligent. There's always a chance this is going to happen. There's a chance it could happen and there not be any negligence or incompetence on the part of the CA
But at the end of the day if you're not prepared to revoke the trust of any CA you trust, it's a you problem
As I understand it, the reason for so much work is that eMudhra was not a root CA. It wasn't added to any official root CA list, instead it was signed by a different root CA with the assumption that eMudhra will complete the work required to become a root CA and this hack will become unnecessary. This is a common, temporary process. So while all the mechanisms for root CA revocation were in place, no one was quite prepared for intermediate certificate revocation.
Good point. I get why some stacks use their own trust stores and not the system trust store. But there should be some mechanism to revoke trust to some of the CAs, without applying patches or rebuilding. Even if its just a convention based /etc/certs/revoked-certs file.
Somehow this is making it even worse. Like, I'm having issues explaining the whole thing to my wife, because I can't come up with a metaphor or parable that's even remotely as ridiculous as what they've done. Anyone's got a good one?
Maybe, like, setting up a factory that builds both LHD and RHD cars and building cars with two passenger seats in the front for two years straight without anyone noticing?
>I can't come up with a metaphor or parable that's even remotely as ridiculous as what they've done
The best example I can think is (some) international borders: yeah, they're heavily regulated entities with lots of written protections (and thousands of miles of impenitrable barricades), but occassionally a hole opens up (whether physically or engineered).
Perhaps a section of border fence is occassionally destroyed (and people sneak in), but this won't happen if the border guards are approving [false] passports from a compromised government actor ("they have a valid passport, according to our inspection"), the border fence doesn't even matter!
Presume anybody can now go to that bad-passport-issuing government and request a passport to then enter any other country (i.e. the other country will see the passport as valid in the official global database): BAM, borders no longer mean anything; welcome to Privileged Accessia.
"eMudhra’s global SSL/TLS infrastructure runs separately from its other operations. The company’s Global digital signature certificate (DSC), eSign, and other signing services, including those in India, its enterprise PKI Solutions (emCA, CertiNext platforms), emSigner eSignature Suite, and its identity and authentication solutions (SecurePass, emAS) are not affected and continue to operate as normal."
So they didn't even use their own certificates? :)
If this company was so incompetent that their private keys were a single byte, I seriously wonder what other areas they're incompetent in but that they've ventured into anyway. When you fail so spectacularly and so publicly at something like being a certificate authority, in the manner that eMudra did, it's rather hard not to wonder.
> However, the level of social media amplification around this incident has brought scrutiny that is out of proportion to SSL/TLS’s place in our business
Scrutiny is inversely proportional to bit complexity of the private keys they used. Without a failure to apologize or expose how it happened: a human mistake, process mistake, etc. this looks pretty bad on them.
> eMudhra’s global SSL/TLS infrastructure runs separately from its other operations. The company’s Global digital signature certificate (DSC), eSign, and other signing services, including those in India, its enterprise PKI Solutions (emCA, CertiNext platforms), emSigner eSignature Suite, and its identity and authentication solutions (SecurePass, emAS) are not affected and continue to operate as norma
Anyone relying on them with anything related to security or trust is playing Russian roulette at this point.
I just wonder how many times private keys were lost by or stolen from by slightly less incompetent companies?
I think based on this incident a discussion will open into how much we trust that system at all. With the level of espionage tactics some countries are keen to show the rest of the world, I personally assume absolutely anything can be sniffed.
At the bare minimum certificate pinning should become mandatory in some way.
Wow this press release is a real PR disaster. It's really just about their business value.
Starting the statement with "a global digital trust company" is so ironic on that context.
Beware even the countries internet regulatory authority (NIC) issued rogue certificates in past, about time NIC's root certificates should be ejected once and for all.
> There were no end entity certificates issued out of the affected CA’s.
What does this mean from the press release? Were they only issuing other chained intermediates? Or did they never issue any ECC certificates from these at all, and everyone is paying the price?
I wonder if big roots with chained intermediates will now need to have serious pressure on their downstream intermediates to re-prove their need to exist. I know RHEL and Debian's strategy (if not others) was to pull the Comodo AAA Services root as well ...
# of issued leaf certs isn't a great indicator of propagation, user-impact, revenue etc.
1. 59 million of those 60 million could be very short validity, duplicate enrollments from same private key/csr, etc.
2. I'm still not certain that that figure isn't including for example private roots/intermediates they've issued from.
That said they're a low volume (in terms of root/int) provider so I don't think the impact of them exiting will be great.
They also have to convince the root programs to let them stay trusted, which can't be done by issuing vague press releases until the news cycle moves on.
True, but the founder's two sons are at the top of the company, so mission was accomplished regardless.
Really though, this is no different than people relying on accountancy firms in the rest of the world for "trust" and "security" as technology concepts. Accountancy firms have no business consulting on technology topics, and yet that is a major part of their business all over the world, because we've allowed "security" and "compliance" to become muddled concepts.
now the question for the media for the next week :
ban LLM discovery of horrendous security practices because as it turns out security-thru-obscurity is being practiced as 'good enough' across the world , or actually enforce realistic and livable security practice ?
given the insistence on picking overblown and totally partisan poor choices lately, I presume the media will sit on the side of 'we'll just ban LLMs from checking the rest of our security apparatus for single digit keys' and charge 'Wayne' with terrorism statutes.' -- but hopefully i'm just being a jaded pessimist.
I think we live in an age where programming mistakes should be attributed to llm by default. In the old days, it was just the coder and stack overflow to blame, now its layer on layer of ai assisted work, from ceo level on down. Something we haven’t perfected yet: how to prove 0 ai use in a product. Until we get there, we have to assume llm are everywhere and that their use carries liability risk.
> However, the level of social media amplification around this incident has brought scrutiny that is out of proportion to SSL/TLS’s place in our business.
What a weak minded statement. Just admit you messed up and call it a day.
Immediately and totally exiting the domain is about as close to admit you messed up and call it a day as you'll ever get from a modern company.
The statement can use whatever weasel words it likes, but the action pretty clearly says "we aren't mature enough as an organisation to handle this responsibility." Which would be quite the concern for me, if I were a customer for one of eMudhra's other product lines.
I do agree it is out of proportion, they deserve a lot more amplification
As someone who's well-versed with the "face-saving" aspects of Indian work culture, I can state with clarity that the statement they put out is completely in character.
Folks in India — especially the boomer class — are trepidated by how they're perceived over actual substance and quality of their work (exceptions exist, of course).
This!
Also, this is the response from official Indian Ministry of Electronics & IT:
…” However, some social media accounts are indulging in fear mongering about the impact of this incident.…”
Bruh, you just literally went
——— BEGIN PUBLIC KEY ———
4
——— END PUBLIC KEY ———
Lol
Major loss of izzat here
TIL:
> Izzat (Bengali: ইজ্জত; Hindi: इज़्ज़त; Urdu: عزت, romanized: 'izzat, lit. 'honour') literally translated: "respect" is a concept of prestige, dignity, and social respect.
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izzat
* Similar? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Face_(sociological_concept)
I would consider OP's comment to be born of bigotry and not a genuine examination of how Indian culture within Emudhra is influencing their decision to pull out.
>> Boomer class
People like you are the ones make the world place to live in
DigiCert threatened legal action against companies that asked them embarrassing questions after they had to revoke certificates due to a bug.[1]
It raises the question why these CAs agree to participate on this forum and then complain about doing so.
1: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1950144
> admit you messed up
You apparently don't understand Indians.
The key was enough of a statement of TLS's place in their business. No new information here.
To admit having messed up they would need to include the full private key in the post, which they seem to have decided is still more embarrassing than not including it.
Culturally, that reply makes perfect sense.
e.g. Japanese culture in many circumstances requires a company to rush to apologize for the smallest perceived (not even actual) fault
[delayed]
I’m skeptical about this, otherwise there wouldn’t be so much controversy regarding their attitude towards their WW2 war crimes.
There is a big difference between a member of a culture apologizing to other members of that culture, and an entire culture apologizing to the world.
While I admit their explanation is questionable, they did admit they messed up.
I see this more as "we didn't know this was so complex and the juice no longer looks worth the squeeze."
What I hear is that he is saying that the SSL/TLS business is only a small part of their overall business and that they can close that part down as a result of the loss of reputation for that this has rendered.
Jesus H Christ these guys had literally the number 4 as their secret and they call telling them they're incompetent an "out of proportion" reaction?
The gall to write that after using the integer 4 as a private key.
It's not quite as egregious as someone purposely choosing the key. According to the write up on the Mozilla bugtracker there was a bug in the script used for there key generation ceremony which caused the bad certificates to be generated. Obviously completely unacceptable for a CA, but makes more sense than someone plucking 4 out of the air while generating a root cert.
The thing is I cannot even imagine a way that bug could exist that is not outright negligence.
A unit test becoming prod data? That’s really all I’ve got and that’s pretty unforgivable.
It's easier to imagine if it was malicious.
I've integrated with production APIs that tell the client to encrypt sensitive data using an IV consisting of 16 null bytes.
Some people just follow a spec and don't stop to think what they spec is supposed to accomplish.
It was selected with a fair dice, guaranteed to be random! :)
"We've been caught out showing that we didn't know what we were doing. And we think people sharing that is disproportionate"
There must be an uncountable number (>237) of social media posts about them by now.
More than 4 posts. It's absolutely ghastly.
I would have never guessed that
Clearly you never had a manager from India, otherwise you’d know this is standard protocol.
A weak minded action doesnt produce a win for all parties involved. In fact I applaud their bravery.
> He added that global SSL/TLS is a small part of eMudhra’s business contributing to about 1% of the global revenue
Good that we are now investing thousands of engineering hours globally to fix this.
Several tech stacks require upgrades of their runtime, python is an ungodly mess with certifi, but yes. It's just 1% of your revenue.
Sorry, it's been a long week.
Yes, but in the end that's not their fault, and in a sense it's good that this happened. It was well understood from the invention of security certificates that private keys might leak and certificates will need to be revoked. Systems that were not designed with this in mind should never have been deployed, and should now be decommissioned and replaced.
It might even be sensible to intentionally revoke a small number of certificates every month, to make sure nobody is complacent.
The number of awesome things we're going to get as a result of this is exciting to think about.
My wife bought this fuckass IoT air purifier that's constantly phoning home. I'm gonna figure out what it's telling the mothership.
> Yes, but in the end that's not their fault, and in a sense it's good that this happened.
I am reminded of the US DST changes back in the 2000s: there was all sorts of drama because a lot of software is written in the US, and there was much 'computerization' in the 1990s, but US coders had never personally experienced a DST rule change during that time period, so any change needed a reboot to pick up the new rules.
That drama led to (e.g.) periodic dynamic checking of /etc/localtime on various Unix-y system.
Sometimes you don't realize that things can be improved until to experience situations in which they currently suck.
Google has decided to stop trusting certificates with dual purpose (server and client) and managed to negotiate a decrease in the maximum (SSL/TLS) certificate lifetime because certificate revocation doesn't work.
We've had to rework part of our application and certificate use because of this.
Kind of what Let's encrypt did for automating certificate rotation.
Let's call it "Let's Decrypt!"
> It might even be sensible to intentionally revoke a small number of certificates every month, to make sure nobody is complacent.
No, this is not even remotely sensible.
Failure paths that are not exercised with regularity will inevitably fail in surprising ways when actually needed.
It really is. It's basically chaos monkey for pki.
Code paths and procedures that aren't exercised regularly are broken.
Even better is having a way to reoke keys and big players occasionally include revoked keys in trust chains and blast a warning if the revoked key is considered valid.
I mean, yeah I get your point but also if these pieces of the stack weren't prepared to deal with a compromised CA, then they were also at least a little bit negligent. There's always a chance this is going to happen. There's a chance it could happen and there not be any negligence or incompetence on the part of the CA
But at the end of the day if you're not prepared to revoke the trust of any CA you trust, it's a you problem
As I understand it, the reason for so much work is that eMudhra was not a root CA. It wasn't added to any official root CA list, instead it was signed by a different root CA with the assumption that eMudhra will complete the work required to become a root CA and this hack will become unnecessary. This is a common, temporary process. So while all the mechanisms for root CA revocation were in place, no one was quite prepared for intermediate certificate revocation.
The root CA should have been revoked then.
Good point. I get why some stacks use their own trust stores and not the system trust store. But there should be some mechanism to revoke trust to some of the CAs, without applying patches or rebuilding. Even if its just a convention based /etc/certs/revoked-certs file.
It's the attitude that riles me.
This demonstrates how hard we are messed up in a CA revocation. But no need to rub it in like that, is there?
-----BEGIN RSA PRIVATE KEY----- 4 -----END RSA PRIVATE KEY-----
BEGIN EC PRIVATE KEY, surely?
Somehow this is making it even worse. Like, I'm having issues explaining the whole thing to my wife, because I can't come up with a metaphor or parable that's even remotely as ridiculous as what they've done. Anyone's got a good one?
Maybe, like, setting up a factory that builds both LHD and RHD cars and building cars with two passenger seats in the front for two years straight without anyone noticing?
>I can't come up with a metaphor or parable that's even remotely as ridiculous as what they've done
The best example I can think is (some) international borders: yeah, they're heavily regulated entities with lots of written protections (and thousands of miles of impenitrable barricades), but occassionally a hole opens up (whether physically or engineered).
Perhaps a section of border fence is occassionally destroyed (and people sneak in), but this won't happen if the border guards are approving [false] passports from a compromised government actor ("they have a valid passport, according to our inspection"), the border fence doesn't even matter!
Presume anybody can now go to that bad-passport-issuing government and request a passport to then enter any other country (i.e. the other country will see the passport as valid in the official global database): BAM, borders no longer mean anything; welcome to Privileged Accessia.
concrete manufacture occasionally builds houses.
house collapses and people get injured.
concrete manufacture says we no longer build houses cause it’s too small of a business.
A car manufacturer that reused the same car key for every car.
And the key has no notches, and so inserting a screwdriver into the lock and turning works just as well as using the key.
I think this is the best parable - a master key with no notches.
And the key is a LEGO brick.
Beyond that, they didn't even properly key the key! They carved one notch in by hand!
"There were no end entity certificates issued out of the affected CA’s."
This seems like a weird statement given that anyone can issue certificates out of the affected CAs.
Well, none came out of the Certificate Authority.
They just didn't mention that now anyone can be their own Certificate Authority.
> There were no end entity certificates issued out of the affected CA’s
Adding "out of the affected CA's" is top PR weasel wording that will slip by non-technical people who read this.
Congratulations to those who wrote or prompted this statement.
"eMudhra’s global SSL/TLS infrastructure runs separately from its other operations. The company’s Global digital signature certificate (DSC), eSign, and other signing services, including those in India, its enterprise PKI Solutions (emCA, CertiNext platforms), emSigner eSignature Suite, and its identity and authentication solutions (SecurePass, emAS) are not affected and continue to operate as normal."
So they didn't even use their own certificates? :)
Why would they? They weren't secure! ;)
All I'll say in response is: Good!
If this company was so incompetent that their private keys were a single byte, I seriously wonder what other areas they're incompetent in but that they've ventured into anyway. When you fail so spectacularly and so publicly at something like being a certificate authority, in the manner that eMudra did, it's rather hard not to wonder.
Reminds me when Trustcor CA got booted off the root stores: https://groups.google.com/a/mozilla.org/g/dev-security-polic...
Popcorn recommended for the read!
I guess they ran out of numbers?
5
https://xkcd.com/221/
lol, I didn't realize the latest comic was also topical.
https://xkcd.com/3314/
Read the alt text :)
that's gold jerry
Sorry, I'm using this one; they'll need to pick another.
Consider the barn door securely locked. Sorry about the horse.
It's more like they tore down the entire barn.
> However, the level of social media amplification around this incident has brought scrutiny that is out of proportion to SSL/TLS’s place in our business
Scrutiny is inversely proportional to bit complexity of the private keys they used. Without a failure to apologize or expose how it happened: a human mistake, process mistake, etc. this looks pretty bad on them.
> eMudhra’s global SSL/TLS infrastructure runs separately from its other operations. The company’s Global digital signature certificate (DSC), eSign, and other signing services, including those in India, its enterprise PKI Solutions (emCA, CertiNext platforms), emSigner eSignature Suite, and its identity and authentication solutions (SecurePass, emAS) are not affected and continue to operate as norma
Anyone relying on them with anything related to security or trust is playing Russian roulette at this point.
I just wonder how many times private keys were lost by or stolen from by slightly less incompetent companies?
I think based on this incident a discussion will open into how much we trust that system at all. With the level of espionage tactics some countries are keen to show the rest of the world, I personally assume absolutely anything can be sniffed.
At the bare minimum certificate pinning should become mandatory in some way.
> "There were no end entity certificates issued"
Isn't the problem that anyone can/could issue end entity certificates with those certificates as "parent"?
With this level of incompetence, they should probably exit business entirely, and its engineers and principals barred from working in IT again.
Wow this press release is a real PR disaster. It's really just about their business value. Starting the statement with "a global digital trust company" is so ironic on that context.
Beware even the countries internet regulatory authority (NIC) issued rogue certificates in past, about time NIC's root certificates should be ejected once and for all.
https://security.googleblog.com/2014/07/maintaining-digital-...
I'm curious how they got into the business in the first place.
From everything that came out they seem terribly unqualified.
How much did they make over the years? Is it true that they issued 60 million SSL certificates (I read this but couldn't verify it)?
> There were no end entity certificates issued out of the affected CA’s.
What does this mean from the press release? Were they only issuing other chained intermediates? Or did they never issue any ECC certificates from these at all, and everyone is paying the price?
I wonder if big roots with chained intermediates will now need to have serious pressure on their downstream intermediates to re-prove their need to exist. I know RHEL and Debian's strategy (if not others) was to pull the Comodo AAA Services root as well ...
# of issued leaf certs isn't a great indicator of propagation, user-impact, revenue etc.
1. 59 million of those 60 million could be very short validity, duplicate enrollments from same private key/csr, etc. 2. I'm still not certain that that figure isn't including for example private roots/intermediates they've issued from.
That said they're a low volume (in terms of root/int) provider so I don't think the impact of them exiting will be great.
you can't fire me -- i quit!!
I'm surprised they didn't announce they're going into hiding instead.
The izzat must be protected at all cost!
sixty million certs but couldn't count past 4.
Why was anyone using certificates from a little known company with no cybersecurity muscle?
Worse yet, why is that CA even part of the Root CAs shipped on all the modern devices?
My trust in those vetting the CAs is completely broken now.
It's not. It's an intermediate CA who somehow managed to convince a root CA to sign their public key.
Web PKI doesn't work like you think it does. I can use eMudhra's private keys to forge a cert for your website. You don't have a choice in this.
Related:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50194909
Do they accept invoices for patching their security flaws?
Are they liable?
Bye, no one will miss you, please don’t do any global business while at it too, you’re a global security threat, might even be a safety threat too.
Let's be real - there was no way for them to recover their way out of that after this ridiculously bad screw-up.
Sure there was - rebrand and change names, maybe once or twice until the public loses interest to keep talking about it.
Or silently spin out a subsidiary under a new name who takes over the cert business, and redirect existing customers there for renewals.
They also have to convince the root programs to let them stay trusted, which can't be done by issuing vague press releases until the news cycle moves on.
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2083449#c30 They're being asked some very pointed questions about why they encountered problems with the key generation process at the time but didn't properly investigate.
Also, deflect blame while attacking those who brought up your mistakes.
Don't these people pay any attention to politics?
At this point, they probably asked Claude or another chatbot how to change the root CA key and realized that is was too late.
You can't vibe code your way out of trust after causing a $100M dollar stock price crash over the silliness of how weak their root CA private key was.
Once you make a mistake like that, you're basically gone four ever
"Trust Delivered". Eh..
probably a good career move
Lol, just noticed, there is not a single tech person on that leadership page https://emudhra.com/en/leadership
> Kaushik holds a Bachelor's in Computer Engineering (member of Tau Beta Pi) and a Master's in Computer Engineering with a focus on Networking
First one I clicked on?
True, but the founder's two sons are at the top of the company, so mission was accomplished regardless.
Really though, this is no different than people relying on accountancy firms in the rest of the world for "trust" and "security" as technology concepts. Accountancy firms have no business consulting on technology topics, and yet that is a major part of their business all over the world, because we've allowed "security" and "compliance" to become muddled concepts.
"His profound understanding of the digital security landscape has been instrumental in eMudhra's global expansion and innovation."
We have established he could at least count to 4 :)
now the question for the media for the next week :
ban LLM discovery of horrendous security practices because as it turns out security-thru-obscurity is being practiced as 'good enough' across the world , or actually enforce realistic and livable security practice ?
given the insistence on picking overblown and totally partisan poor choices lately, I presume the media will sit on the side of 'we'll just ban LLMs from checking the rest of our security apparatus for single digit keys' and charge 'Wayne' with terrorism statutes.' -- but hopefully i'm just being a jaded pessimist.
Everybody laughed when they said GPT-2 wasn’t safe to release. This is the tip of the iceberg.
LLMs had nothing to do with this.
I think we live in an age where programming mistakes should be attributed to llm by default. In the old days, it was just the coder and stack overflow to blame, now its layer on layer of ai assisted work, from ceo level on down. Something we haven’t perfected yet: how to prove 0 ai use in a product. Until we get there, we have to assume llm are everywhere and that their use carries liability risk.
You spent the last 4 years coping; calling AI a stochastic parrot, and saying the warnings were all marketing. You wasted 4 years. Good job.