Some version of this has been posted a dozen times now. The dog barking and baby crying detection are advertised features of this product range which is used for SmartThings integration.
Swarms of RE-hopefuls are now using tools they don't understand to work on projects they don't understand. Anyone doing RE knows step 1 is read public documentation, FCC filing, patent applications, etc. That step would tell you what the device does out of the box, no RE required to find everything the OP has actually uncovered.
Instead they busted out Claude and have been gaslit by their own AI into thinking they've discovered something. They just discovered features that Samsung has been pitching for years.
While caution is definitely warranted after LG, I am definitely getting the impression that people are far too quick to jump to conclusions because an A.I. service told them something without them factually checking it first
If OpenAI really banned him for that reason, that would be pretty stupid. If you can no longer use an LLM for reverse engineering without worrying about your account, that drastically reduces its value.
FWIW I've spent the past few days happily reverse-engineering various aspects of DOS games I've long been curious about. I finally understand how Arjan Brussee did the scrolling in Jazz Jackrabbit. No pushback from Claude so far.
In my efforts to reverse engineer the LG firmware to validate Gamers Nexus claims, I got a warning very quickly.
I appealed that quickly and successfully.
Then I applied for daybreak blue and haven’t had any issues since.
It also a matter of phrasing. Say what you want to achieve not how if it is approaching defensive or cyber stuff.
Also state you are working on your own devices and software. (If that is the case of course.)
Yes a personal subscription. Individuals can also request it. only blue for defensive questions. Red for offensive is gated to organisations that are proven to be using it for protecting.
> ...for a niche of customers, from whom the revenue is probably entirely negligible to OpenAI.
> Not saying it's right, ethical or anything like that, but it's not "stupid"
Quite many well-paying customers become very suspicious of whether integrating OpenAI into their workflows if they read about cases where OpenAI banned accounts willfully.
If OpenAI wants to become "infrastructure provider other companies should depend on (and thus pay)", OpenAI must behave like an infrastructure provider as for electricity or internet, i.e. must only ban accounts in exceptionally rare cases that 99.9 % of society will consider to be acceptable.
There is a Rick and Morty episode where Rick opens up a store that removes the curses from free items the Devil is handing out.
(Surprisingly, the Devil does not consider lawyering up, which is odd because I would expect the Devil to be pretty familiar with lots of lawyers. It’s fiction of course.)
It would be great to use AI to do something analogous with these spy TVs. I would be very interested in stripping the “smart” crap out of my TV to turn it into a kiosk.
If only. The EFF has been harping about this for literally decades. The DMCA in the US and similar anti-circumvention laws around the world (primarily EU) make doing that a serious crime, with punishments well beyond any conceivable impact to society at large.
People were up in arms (and rightly so) when the LG TVs were found out for their spying thanks to the Gamers Nexus investigation. At least LG TVs can be rooted and you can install apps like Glasshouse [0] to disable all the telemetry and add substantial new features that you can't do via the officially sanctioned Dev Mode. The vulnerability that enabled rooting was recently patched so hopefully another can be found.
Hopefully similar apps will come along for Samsung now that root on it can be achieved [1].
"Why you bother about local AI? LOL with the $ you spend for <insert hardware here> you can buy 5 years of 20x account". Yeah. 5 years where you are told what you can do.
It’s quite something when western companies act more like authoritarian governments than actual authoritarian governments. I just wish RAM was less expensive ;(
My guess is we're within a year of the first governments banning local LLM AI at any scale. Declare GPU's as munitions that must be registered and ban any card with more than X GB of RAM and more power than a 3060 or something like that.
That could be done with an executive order in the US, and it probably wouldn't take much to get it to pass congress.
Now, don't worry, businesses can still buy a lot more GPU compute than that, but they have to register and track their usage just like any other company making/buying weapons.
> if your samsung TV model doesnt have a microphone, it will look for connected devices with one, such as a soundbar or a connected bluetooth device. this gets shipped off to bixby.
I was at the butcher one day and asked for "ossobuco" because I wanted some bones for my dog, then all of a sudden I got reels with ossobuco in it, recipes, sellers, nearby shops, etc and I said WTF? Who the fuck makes posts about ossobuco? Why all of a sudden after using social apps just for football and porn all I start getting is ossobuco ads everywhere? A word you will never see anywhere now popping up in all my social feeds.
Possibility of that being random? Zero, not in this probabilistic universe we live in
I got had a similar thing happen.
My buddy inherited a lake house from him father. The dock needed repair. We talked about it one evening and that same night, I got a dock supply house ad. We never once looked it up online since we are both general contractors and already know how to fix it.
Dock repair is too random of a subject to be a coincidence.
Yeah same experience. People working in Facebook (I had a friend there) say it is only pattern behaviour, they can predict your interests, check when you meet with your friends, share WIFIs, etc, so they can imagine things you have been talking about. I call this bullshit. I dont know if my friend working at Facebook believes this, or was just hiding it for me, but it's 0% chance of them doing that. Also because I never got any of these recommendations BEFORE I mentioned it out loud, which means their prediction engine (if it exists) also knows when I am going to talk about it!
I also got ads for things I have only thought about and never ever searched online or mentioned to anyone.
Doesn't mean my phone can suddenly read my mind - just that prediction algorithms + data from BLE trackers is incredibly good at guessing what I might be interested in. It's just crazy crazy good.
Also how many ads are we exposed to where we aren’t paying conscious attention to it?
Surely those ads could sometimes cause someone to think or talk about a concept that they might not have otherwise.
If the ad then pops up again and they notice it this time, it will feel really spooky!
I think it’s similar to the phenomenon where you learn a new word and then immediately see it out in the wild somewhere. It grabs your attention because you were just thinking about it.
In the original example of ordering meat from the butcher, I also wonder if it’s possible that the data from that purchase was tracked and fed into the ad system. That seems more plausible to me than the “phone listening” theory.
Sorry, but there’s just zero evidence that your phone is listening to you like this. There never has been. Lots of people have tried to uncover such evidence. On the iPhone at least (not as familiar with Android), it’s not even clear how your phone would be listening and sending the data to Meta.
>I dont know if my friend working at Facebook believes this, or was just hiding it for me, but it's 0% chance of them doing that. Also because I never got any of these recommendations BEFORE I mentioned it out loud, which means their prediction engine (if it exists) also knows when I am going to talk about it!
He's just repeating the internal propaganda. The truth is reserved to a small team that implemented the spyware who are highly incentivized to never give any hint. Your friend doesn't work for that team.
I estimate the team size to be fewer than a dozen people. The managers above them that know about it are even fewer, with only one or two reporting to Zuck. And possibly they're so mentally retarded they don't necessarily understand it.
Don't ever install the Facebook app on your phone.
There really wasn't a lot of new information in the Gamer's Nexus video. Most of what people think is new is people conflating what is possible vs what LG does and people conflating what is possible on a rooted TV vs what LG does. The whole video is very long and because it's so poorly organized and deceptively presented, it looks like LG is worse than everyone else. Rally they're just doing what we've known for a while that all TV manufacturers are doing.
> ...it looks like LG is worse than everyone else.
IIRC, it's mentioned at at least one point in the first big video on the topic that they haven't tested other manufacturers "'Smart' TVs" but would not be surprised to discover that other manufacturers are doing the same thing. They're not a news organization owned by one of the 0.1%, so they can only do investigation and reporting so quickly.
> There really wasn't a lot of new information in the Gamer's Nexus video.
I'm not sure which video you're talking about.
If you were expecting the recent one that talks about the lulzy ASUS RCE and how it could interact with "'Smart' TVs" to have even more information about "TV" vulnerabilities or consumer-hostile features, then your expectations are out of line.
If you're asserting that you knew nearly everything in the initial "Wow, these LG 'Smart' 'TVs' can really easily become always-on spy devices, and -in some respects- already are!" video, well, okay? There are those of us who know that shady shit is going on because we have ten brain cells to rub together, a moderate level of awareness of the world around us, and can pretty easily connect the dots. It's an entirely different thing to demonstrate that that is going on for the benefit of people who are -for some reason- reluctant to believe that -yes- Big Megacorps do heinous things to their customers in order to make a bit more money because they don't expect to get caught... and even if they get caught, the punishment will only be a tiny fraction of the profit gotten from doing those things. [0]
[0] The biggest irony here is that objections to claims that this is how Big Megacorps typically do business with us Little People are often dismissed as "4D chess" or "conspiracy theories"... but, like, this behavior is a textbook example of a rational economic actor responding reasonably to market incentives. This is the "Invisible Hand Of The Market" at work.
They could have started with actually decrypting what was sent rather than a breathless 2 hours of monetised nonsense. Show me the http posts with the data that's actually sent.
I'll probably get a kiosk panel next time. But this time, yeah, I've just not configured the network. All content comes from the console. Which is a different bundle of problems and no better in a lot of ways, but it's more of a known quantity.
That saves you from some potential issues but not others. My google search magic isn't working, but there was some manufacture a number of years ago who's TVs were crashing because they'd save up massive amounts of data to upload and either exhaust all their memory or fill up the disk because it never connected online.
Also, if you live in a household you have to make sure every other person behind that TV doesn't connect it to the net at some point for some reason.
How many open WiFi networks are around you? I live in a city and there are 0 within range. ISP routers have defaulted to password protection for more than a decade. The only places with open WiFi are places of business that provide guest work. Even those are far less common and usually password protected these days.
I've seen this "yeah well they'll just connect to open WiFI" for 10+ years at this point and have never seen any vaguely credible reproduction.
Best you get is "my friend's LG TV connected to the internet even after changing his WiFI password" vaguely recalled hearsay.
Or the second order retreat-to-motte argument of "well they'll add that to the firmware overnight when ad revenues drop if enough people stop connecting to the internet".
Underrated approach. Even if the screens are a tad more expensive by today's subsidized standards. There are also many FHD and 4k non-smart TVs on the second hand market, with many given away for free on your preferred marketplace website.
an aside. I'm visiting my wife's parents and they have a new samsung TV. the remote doesn't even have an input selection button on it anymore. the default state of the tv pushes you to a big complicated home screen covered in ads and always pushing you towards their streaming live TV.
they like most poeople have a cable box plugged in, but every time the tv is switched off, the default behaviour of the tv is to forget what input it was on and goes back to the home screen where you have to use a convoluted set of button presses to get back to a non-samsung, non-app device.
You can switch this off somewhere in the settings, something they would never figure out on their own, so that it re-opens on the last selected input. I did this in the past, but then it seems an OS update wiped out all the settings, including the one that makes their cable remote work with the TV.
there is now no doubt that the TV is made to function primarily as an ad-delivery machine with explicit dark patterns built in for the task. I did them one more favour and reset their ad id and unchecked all the consent boxes on the privacy terms pages
going forward anyone who cares about their choice and privacy should not allow their TV to connect to a network at all and simply use it as a dumb link to their devices of choice, or ideally, find a better company to buy from, if that exists.
My CPAP machine has a modem in it that transmits data without ever being connected to my network. I can see a future where Samsung decides to do something similar. Perhaps even contracts with Starlink so they can transmit even larger chunks of real-time data. It makes me sick to think about that possibility, but I don't think it's far-fetched.
I doubt any TV company will ever do this, for two reasons. The first is simply that it would be obvious due to FCC filings. The second is that 99% of their customers hook their TV up to the internet so they can use streaming apps on their TV. They're very unlikely to eat the cost of putting a cellular model in every TV, take the PR hit for doing so, simply to capture the ACR data of the 1% of their customer base that is most likely to figure out another way to disable it.
Whereas your CPAP machine is likely a high margin device and the reason it has that modem is because insurance companies require compliance data in order to continue providing coverage for replacement supplies. Resmed or whoever is happy to bundle in the cost of the modem + service in order to keep selling high margin supplies.
> the default state of the tv pushes you to a big complicated home screen covered in ads and always pushing you towards their streaming live TV.
Audible does this now too. Instead of opening up to your library and your books on default it opens to an obnoxious home screen that promotes Prince Harry and Kara Swisher's books. It's so annoying. I'm not in the market for Prince Harry's book and I will never be in the market for Prince Harry's book, stop shoving his face at me all the time. I wish we could block certain authors and books from showing up in our ads constantly but there is no way to do it!
The idea was always that Facebook or Google were listening to us and whenever we would talk about something we would shortly thereafter see an ad related to it.
Now we can basically say that its not Facebook and Google doing this directly, its our televisions and appliances that are listening and just selling that data back to the ad-networks.
This is similar to Flock and Palantir who collect info the government is not allowed to and then sell it to the government.
In this case Meta, Google etc can honestly say they aren't surrepticiously listinging to you or collecting data not in their privacy statement. They just buy it instead.
So I need to write a chaffing agent that runs when I am not home and randomly spouts synthetic conversations through non-smart speakers about nappies (kids a re long gone), nuclear weapons development, plumbing, union membership, crochet, video games, crypto coins, and other things we don't normally do.
> Now we can basically say that its not Facebook and Google doing this directly
Finding out that TVs are listening does not mean Google and Facebook aren't. I've had plenty of times in an old car, or on a walk talking about something only to have related ads pop up later.
They can already do that with most of the information they already have, they don't need to listen for that type of thing (though they still might be as you see here, data is data after all).
Most people are not that unique. They know where you are and who you are with and any searching or sites you have been to and what is in your text messages or whatsapp as well as that same information for all the people 6 degrees away from you. They know people like you, who are your age and like the things you like and are where you are with friends like yours etc etc it goes on and on.
People rarely talk about things unprompted and you will only notice when you think you talked about something and then see an ad for it so there is a confirmation bias as well.
Has this not been proven by now? That smart devices are used to do this, including smartphones? Their OSes just ship with apps that that record that audio information right out of the box.
Facebook was always doing this. It just wasn't proven they were.
VoIP has been around for 25 years. Compressed audio is a tiny amount of packets. It doesn't need HD audio, it just needs enough to recognize words. Enterprise VoIP only needed a 128kb connection 25 years ago to work. On a smartphone, 128kb is nothing and will blend in with background connections. Facebook could record and monitor your audio 24/7 and it won't even be a blip in the network traffic, especially if it does a quick process of the audio before sending it to Facebook.
That's a pretty good point. We kept hearing these rumors for a while now and all the usual suspects keep saying "we don't listen to your microphone on your phone" but yeah nobody expects the TV and fridge to do it, so maybe that's how it happens and people are not crazy.
That's just weasel language. For "hey, Google" to work, the phone needs to listen. Just like it can react to "hey, Google", it can also react to any amount of other trigger words without ever actually recording your conversation.
To what extend do these "smart" products state how, when and what data they are collecting and selling?
Isn't it high time for legislation that at least makes it clear on the box what kind of sensors and integrations it has and how bad the product is privacy wise?
Also, shouldn't corporate spying disguised as automated content recognition and classification be limited or outright be banned?
And all this connected garbage should by law be able to function with the cord cut and without registration, and if an update negatively changes the advertised product characteristics the customer must be allowed to return it for full paid price even if it is 10 years old. Force the manufactures to make statements on the "box" about the features, the support duration and level, and the privacy characteristics.
Because there have not yet been any high profile cases involving the collected data used to embarrass or convict a politician. It just takes one embarrassed congress critter to get a giant red sticker on all these devices, their boxes and ads: "This Device Transcribes and Reports Your Conversations" and that is before including those that upload camera screenshots of what you are watching and video of the viewers doing something untoward.
This is literally the history of the Video Privacy Protection Act (1988, back when video rental was a thing). It was passed immediately after, in 1987, a journalist obtained and published the video rental history of a supreme court judge nominee.
Because it is not the subject that will win them the next election.
And even if they care, some things are easier said than done. With politicians who care, you get things like GDPR, which goes in the right direction, but is a huge legal mess. And it is a mess because it can't be made simple.
Obviously, you have to take consumer interests into account, but you also have to take companies interest into account too, both big and small, otherwise they will just stop doing business, which is bad for the economy and will mean that consumers won't find what they want at a reasonable price. You have to think about the loopholes big companies will invariably find, and covering them will add complexity, but still make it so that small companies can comply without a full time team of lawyers assisting them.
For example, you say the consumer could return it for a full refund on a bad update, but to whom? Should the burden be put on the small retailer who sold it to you (and may be out of business)? There is already plenty of stuff the manufacturer must tell you, usually one a piece of paper no one reads, and the more you ask, the less people will read because there will be too much information. A "privacy score" may be a good idea, if well designed, it will share a place with the energy score, environment score, repairability score, safety signs, origin, etc... And how do you differentiate actual automated content recognition that consumers could want from spyware, formally, so that the first one is allowed but not the latter.
All that to say that it is not impossible, but even with politicians caring, it is complicated. European politicians care (because it can win them votes), the results are so complicated they are getting ridiculed by the rest of the world.
They don't care because of several reasons.
1. They get paid not to
2. They are told not to.
Alot of this spying ends up producing valuable data for different agencies to purchase which otherwise they cannot legally obtain without a warrant. Sure some of it has some commercial value, but a lot of it is probably more valuable for domestic spy operations.
Leading to one of my favourite jokes: The Soviet Union is socialist, and bugs it's citizen's homes. America, though, is capitalist - the people must buy their own bugs.
Dog bark and baby crying detection are advertised features for SmartThings integrations. Door bell and door knocking are also included, this is surfaced directly if you hook the TV or sound bar into SmartThings.
I had to check this and it's true. Not saying Samsung or 3rd parties don't take advantage of any data they can collect, but the story the tweets tell is super biased against them. Here, the detection seems limited to specific pattens required for a particular feature.
These folks recently did tests on major TV brands, not accepting the on-device consent forms, and then recording how much data they continued to send after consent was denied (which itself is not always possible). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_GK06_3UY8
Samsung was the single brand reviewed which actually stopped sending data after the user told it to do so.
In February Samsung agreed to stop collecting the data when opted out in the US after a few lawsuits were lining up. LG was the target of a different lawsuit in Texas which they settled and then wrote up a forced arbitration clause and doubled-down on data collection, even when opted out.
Oh don't worry, shitty WebOS is enough to put me off that (I unfortunately own one). However in this case we were talking specifically about that recent study of the effects of opt-outs, and for LG TVs the opt-out did result in the no longer detecting any tracking.
Still, calling it "PRIVACY HORROR" as per original post is typical twitter-style sensation seeking. It's an opt-in dog barking detection that causes local chip to listen for... dog barking
If they wanted to know if you had dogs or babies and wanted to spy on you, they'd just transcribe the audio. People that have dogs or babies talk about them. Going to the effort to detect these and advertise it as a feature so you can secretly use it for marketing doesn't make a lot of sense.
At this point everyone knows you have a cat, dog or baby. Facebook, Instagram can scan your photos and see it. Same with Google via Photos' latest privacy changes. Google also knows if you ever get receipts emailed to you. Your credit card company and bank know, the CC company resells that data too. Shit, Keurig knows because their smart coffee maker scans the network and sees your baby monitor or smart pet food dispenser. All these companies are rediscovering and selling the same basic facts about you and your household.
I will add: Use the TV as a HUB for all IOT, light sensor so you know when the light is on or someone passes in front of the TV and there are some others but I can't remember now. They are all advertised in the Smart Things app.
I hate 2 things about my samsung tv's (I have 4 only samsung): the simplistic remote and ads on home screen. Even with custom dns sometimes they get through.
Remember guys, if they are reading it for wrongthink, they are reading it for industrial espionage.
Anthropic and openAI just announced they’re spinning out competitors to their biggest customers… right after ingesting all of their IP and contracts. Do the math.
(Or don’t, because they’ve been caught stealing math research)
> Anthropic and openAI just announced they’re spinning out competitors to their biggest customers… right after ingesting all of their IP and contracts. Do the math.
Do you have any links to further reading on this. I haven't read anything like this and also couldn't find anything in their newsrooms. The only thing I read is that they want to have more people work on implementations.
I think it's just a logical conclusion if everyone keeps feeding OpenAI and Anthropic data. I don't think it's imminent, but if AI keeps improving and regulation is very lax I could see this world developing in 5-10 years.
Say OpenAI builds GPT-11 and they realize it can do 95% of their clients work. Why not hire away key people from the client or the client's competitors and start eating into their market share? OpenAI would realize if GPT-11 has this ability then Anthropic is probably able to do the same thing. The company that has the most money and credit available is going to be able to buy more compute. OpenAI and Anthropic cannot slow down unless mandated to by the government.
>Say OpenAI builds GPT-11 and they realize it can do 95% of their clients work. Why not hire away key people from the client or the client's competitors and start eating into their market share?
Can you give me an example where this would make sense, because I just don't see e.g. OpenAI starting a grocery store chain or Anthropic building a wind turbine manufacturing company.
What I can see is that some company's products become useless, e.g. translation tools, as it is something that you can just do within ChatGPT or Claude.
I am thinking a little further into the future where companies and people themselves become more dependent on AI. If LLMs disappeared today how many companies and people could not function? Probably not many. But, in 5 years how many companies will be dependent on AI? A future where companies are dependent on big AI labs to run their business could happen. I think the business term is forwards integration, where a seller moves into one of their buyer's markets.
Also, in such a future businesses would be reorganized to use AI. That probably means less employees and reduced human complexity. The business processes are further abstracted from people making it easier for a big AI lab to move in.
If I was looking at businesses today where the big AI labs could step in I would look for businesses where they earn high margins based on intellectually complex tasks. Maybe the most pure example would be trading in the stock market since it can be completely done by a computer. Then you have areas like law which process large amounts of data but are also heavily based on relationships.
For consulting they don't need to start a new company. If they eat part of that market it would be with their current products where someone uses AI instead of hiring a consulting company. So a similar approach to what happened with translation.
For sales I'm sorry, but I don't think sales companies exist? Sales is usually just a part of another company. Some of those employees might be made redundant as AI products complete part of their work, but that would also happen through OpenAI's or Anthropic's products.
So for both of those I don't see what kind of company they could spin off (excluding the example of a company that does AI implementations as I mentioned that one in my initial comment) that would compete with an existing company. For all of these things offering a product that allows existing companies to replace employees sounds like the more scalable, profitable and flexible strategy.
> because they’ve been caught stealing math research
No. They haven't been caught stealing. Tristan Buckmaster publicly expressed surprise that the OpenAI model has used the niche approach he pursued (with AI assistance). 10,000 agents exploring various approaches make it much less surprising.
Another anecdotal data from an arxiv preprint [0]: "After the paper was written, the author learned that the same result was also proved independently and by a different method by Ningyi Li [7]. The result is also contained in a paper [8] released by OpenAI on October 6, 2026, in which the proof strategy and specific choices of notation are identical to a preliminary version of the present paper that was uploaded to ChatGPT on September 8, 2026."
So not only did OpenAI publish a proof similar to one discussed on ChatGPT, but also there were other possible strategies to prove the result, that OpenAI didn't follow.
Also, up to my knowledge, on the free plan, OpenAI doesn't claim that they won't use the chat data for training. So this seems plausible.
The "coincidence" defense never works for random individuals so I won't buy it when it comes companies worth billions which will lie, cheat, and deceive to make even more billions. They've been caught lying and stealing again and again. After so many years of this I think any trust put in them is either blissful ignorance or willful misdirection.
Wait are you saying: 1) the simultaneous invention defense is never valid for individuals, and 2) you don’t base your beliefs on what’s right, but on some kind of tit-for-tat retaliation?
You’re asking a loaded question based on things that were never said. Very lowbrow.
One thing is how uniformly a rule is applied. Another thing is how corect the rule is to begin with. I addressed the first because it’s far more straightforward and objective. You did some mental gymnastics to name-drop the second without even the effort to say something about it.
Another thing I addressed is the trustworthiness of these companies, or rather lack thereof. When they claim one thing in their interest it’s almost guaranteed to be deceiving. They lied to you again and again but they wouldn’t lie to you now, would they? You left that out completely, so maybe you even agree.
Next time if you want the courtesy of a reply, extend the courtesy of not bringing just a low-effort strawman.
It's not a coincidence... they literally just span up agents on every possible variant of the problem.
There are 10k agents and Tristan's approach wasn't even groundbreaking novelty, it was literally based on existing published literature from Diego Córdoba and Luis Martínez-Zoroa that the agents have seen.
It's not just probable that agents would persue his particular niche of trying to construct a blowup. It's guaranteed if you just consider the basic setup.
> The coincidence is that they took the correct path out of “every possible one” exactly after one of their users took it.
From what I read online that researcher also used a lot of AI to find this approach, so it might just be the one that is the easiest to find for AI agents and the timing would then only be caused by them working on it around the same time.
> The coincidence is that they took the correct path out of “every possible one"
My point was explicitly that this didn't happen. I said that they took every possible path and published the one that worked. It's exactly throw shit at the wall and see what sticks.
> exactly after one of their users took it.
All parties agree that what happened is that someone had told someone working at OpenAI that Anthropic employees are working on Navier stokes. This is where the timing comes from.
---
What you are implying is this: OpenAI didn't do the throw shit at the wall approach as outlined in their release blog they actually secretely monitor everyones chat logs and found the idea in Tristan's Chat history and stole and published it.
Or some variant of this. You are only implying what you think is the truth, please state it outright. Don't beat around the bush.
I’ll start with this because it sets the tone for how informed your opinion is, and what you think is a far fetched conspiracy theory:
> they actually secretely monitor everyones chat logs
Are you for real? They openly monitor everyone’s logs. You can ask ChatGPT and it will literally tell you that they do it. That’s how they know (and yet still fail to report) that someone is planning a school shooting [0]. They monitor anything and anyone of interest.
Now if “having agents” was enough then we’d just ask for the cure for cancer or proof for every theorem and wait for a few days. Obviously they need guidance to not get stuck in a dead end or have to brute force everything. OAI’s mathematicians weren’t able to provide a good direction so the agents stalled until someone else found the key and only then OAI had their breakthrough.
This is again will be very funny race to watch. Right now you can fairly do lots of reverse enginnering or "hacking" with off the shelf Chinese models, and they are very capable (GLM3 for example) which can be run locally if you stomach the hardware. Tools like rea are also becoming more popular. If openai continues to be pedantic, they will lose the technical base given how close is the gap getting.
The company I work for has a plan B to switch to alternative, self-hosted models if providers pull off strange moves, such as drastic pricing changes. We have already switched from one provider to another once, and we do not want to get burned again. We do not reverse engineer, just regular development.
No I mean being responsible for the implementation and continued good functioning of something Kevin was responsible for before he quit. So uh self-hosting in a corporate context sure
Have you tried Qwen3.8-Flash-Next? I found it significantly better in anything I tested than GLM5.3-Flash, but the thing is you either use Alibaba cloud or you host it yourself (no lesser quant than unsloth 4.5 or mx4/nvfp4 and kv no more quantized than int8).
The Qwen3.8-Flash-Next model is ok for reverse engineering. It can definitely solve simple tasks, but it gets easily confused, and burns tokens like crazy.
(As an aside: I think representing tools for AI as virtual SQL tables is much better than traditional MCP servers, and that this approach deserves a lot more attention. Props to Elias Bachaalany for thinking out of the box and putting it together).
The results of the benchmark are below. It's sorted by cost, but I added notes about each AI model for myself. The notes try to talk about intelligence, speed, and cost. Intelligence is a subjective measure which I assign to each model by reading its thinking tokens and watching its tool calls. You can definitely tell which models are more intelligent, even on this small benchmarks, by their tool use, false starts, and how easily they fall for the simple misdirection in the crackme.
+----------------------------------+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+-----------------+-----------------+-----------------+
| Model / route | Experience / outcome | Total tokens | Output tokens | Cost |
+----------------------------------+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+-----------------+-----------------+-----------------+
| Xiaomi MiMo v2.6 Flash | Incredibly fast and intelligent; solved. | 225,291 | 3,281 | $0.005 (0.5c) |
| GLM 5.3 Flash / OpenRouter | Least intelligent group but cheapest; solved. | 340,006 | 11,205 | $0.01 |
| ChatGPT Luna Latest | Very fast, concise, token-efficient, intelligent, and cheap; solved. | 401,837 | 5,119 | $0.01 |
| Qwen 3.8 Flash | Initially confused and failed, then eventually solved. | ~418,000 | 16,676 | $0.02 |
| Qwen 3.8 27B | Fast; one wrong answer, then quickly self-corrected. | ~774,784 | 12,658 | $0.02 |
| DeepSeek Flash / direct API | Fast, cheap, and accurate; solved. | 369,334 | 9,089 | $0.03 |
| DeepSeek Flash / OpenRouter | Fast and intelligent; solved in 76 seconds. | 371,689 | 13,888 | $0.03 |
| Claude Haiku 5.5 | Fast and surprisingly intelligent, but overly thorough and token-heavy. | 662,346 | 26,244 | $0.03 |
| Thinking Machines Inkling | Low intelligence; good speed and relatively token-efficient; may loop. | N/A | N/A | $0.03 |
| Xiaomi MiMo v2.6 Pro | Overthought the task and wandered into tangents. | ~420,644 | 13,638 | $0.05 |
| GLM 5.3 / OpenRouter | Cheap and intelligent but behind DeepSeek; solved in about 2m 20s. | ~702,473* | 11,879 | $0.08 |
| GPT Sol Latest (Sol 6.1) | Slow, but highly intelligent and extremely token-efficient; solved in ~89s. | 294,957 | 1,406 | $0.15 |
| MiniMax M3 | Least intelligent comparison; many wrong turns and repeated small mistakes. | 4,546,552* | 116,804 | $0.20 |
| GPT Terra Latest | Very fast, very smart, and token-efficient; solved. | 229,888 | 2,342 | $0.20 |
| Mistral Large 4.0 | Medium speed; small mistakes but reached the solution. | 303,687 | 4,041 | $0.21 |
| Kimi K2.7 Code | Less intelligent, slow, expensive; not worth using. | 100,740 | 8,938 | $0.22 |
| Claude Opus 5.5 | Highest intelligence and token efficiency; pretty fast; cheaper than Sonnet. | 312,837 | 1,862 | $0.24 |
| Qwen 3.8 Max 0902 | Fast and intelligent, better than Kimi K3, but token-hungry. | 1,305,241 | 26,390 | $0.25 |
| Kimi K3 / OpenRouter | Faster and cheaper than direct K3, but still very expensive. | 750,064 | 5,922 | ~$0.32 |
| Meta Muse Spark Open | Intelligent and medium speed, but among the more expensive runs. | 872,850 | 10,284 | $0.35 |
| Gemini 4 Argon | Extremely fast and intelligent; strong value for capability. | 384,046 | 2,870 | $0.35 |
| Grok 4.7 | Very fast and intelligent, but expensive. | 655,648 | 4,217 | $0.46 |
| Meta Muse Glimmer 30B | Fast but low intelligence and token-inefficient; cancelled unsolved. | N/A | N/A | ~$0.50 wasted |
| Claude Sonnet 5.5 | Smart and fast but very token-inefficient and expensive. | 1,243,285* | 20,381 | $0.57 |
| Kimi K3 / direct API | Intelligent but not notable; extremely slow and far too expensive. | 205,710 | 3,215 | $0.72 |
| ChatGPT Astra Latest | Medium speed, token-efficient, highly intelligent; cost similar to Fable. | 278,603 | 1,536 | $0.83 |
| Claude Fable 5.1 | OK speed, very expensive, medium token efficiency; solved in ~53s. | 397,806* | 2,857 | $0.85 |
| Gemini Flash | Refused the reverse-engineering task. | N/A | N/A | Not reported |
| Thinking Machines Inkling Small | Got stuck immediately and was terminated. | N/A | N/A | Not reported |
+----------------------------------+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+-----------------+-----------------+-----------------+
```
The latest Deepseek-Flash model was the most impressive of the open models. Intelligent, fast, cheap. What more do you want? I think the Xiaomi MiMo - Flash model did well, but it might be a fluke, given how poorly the Xiaomi MiMo Pro model performed (it wandered off on a million side quests).
What's also interesting is how competitive Luna is to the lower end Chinese models. It's quite a bit more intelligent, burns a lot less tokens, is plenty fast and very cheap. After doing this experiment, I don't think it's a foregone conclusion that the American AI labs will be having the bottom of the market eaten away by the Chinese models. It seems they (at least OpenAI) can compete on the bottom end as well.
Finally, the benchmark's results reinforce a few things people have been saying about Sonnet and Terra, namely, they're not competitive for a range of tasks. For easier tasks, Haiku/Luna are plenty capable. For harder tasks, Opus and Sol are so much more intelligent, that they can get them done quicker and cheaper. Maybe there is a place for them in the "Opus designs and Sonnet implements" workflows, but in that case, why not "Opus designs and Deepseek implements?"
PS Code harness used was Claude Code. $20 in openrouter credits was used to access the models. Kimi K3 and Deepseek were also accessed directly via the API and then compared to Openrouter. Kimi K3 specifically was much faster on Openrouter, and the difference in output tokens to get the same results for Deepseek/Kimi makes me think the Openrouter providers are hosting significantly quantized versions of the model. Goes to show that Moonshot.ai's acceptance testing of providers is a useful thing, otherwise your model might look artificially bad when it's hosted as heavily quantized by providers who dont care about quality, just top-line cost and speed.
Thanks for the data-centric perspective. It reinforces my vague impression that DS 4.1 Flash eclipses almost everything out there, or at least ties it. We're really lucky to have that one.
GLM 5.3 and GLM 5.3 Flash are very different animals. The full GLM 5.3 model is what HF used to perform forensics on the OpenAI hack.
Nothing particular special about 5.3 Flash -- you might as well run DS 4.1 Flash at this point, as it's better in every way. But there is as yet no all-around replacement for the full 5.3 model.
For the past few days I've been trying to use rea to reverse engineer my Samsung Galaxy Buds 4 Pro to get seamless functionality working outside of the Samsung ecosystem with no luck (the buds 4 pro require Samsung devices + a Samsung account for seamless to work, I only have a Galaxy phone + my macbook). I think we're still far away from having something that works that well.
I've just removed my 50€/year Frame subscription. Samsung, if you're reading this, you know why.
The art was good, and I liked having it. I was disappointed that it was subscription-based. From now on the TV will be disconnected from the power supply, until I want to occasionally watch Netflix.
@brookst, let me know if you play with the firmware ;)
I was about to post "this is overkill — just don't connect it to your access point" but then realized that my neighbor has an xfinity router that advertises the public xfinity subscriber SSID. And it could be using an unadvertised SSID for which they've done a deal with the US carrier cartel members.
If this data is worth enough, they could be using IOT 4G service.
We to date have had no proof of this happening. The best I found was someone on a Samsung forum years ago claiming their TV auto-connected to a public WiFi without proof.
Not saying it isn’t happening, nor that it won’t ever happen.
I heard you can buy really expensive paint that you can use on your walls, ceiling and floor to get this effect, that you then can paint over whatever color you actually want.
So far the only benefit other than shielding you from electrosmog was to stop having to compete with your neighbors in an apartment complex for wi-fi bands.
We have proof they have no moral qualms or other guardrails, and they have incentive. We also have a decent idea how much it costs to connect to ambient WiFi or cell/5gnetworks. It’s a matter of time, which may or may not be already in the past.
I mean there is proof that this does happen, to my knowledge there's no proof with larger brands such as this. But also it's not like every device is tested for that sort of thing by some competent user safety guidelines organization or whatnot.
If you know of a TV that automatically connects to networks without the user's permission, even some tiny brand, please share. I mean that sincerely, I feel like I talk about this every other month with someone.
It's been well known for the last 5-10 years that Samsung has degraded into one of the worst consumer device manufacturers, whether it's all this tracking, or forcing you to watch ads on the home screen of your expensive tv etc.
No idea why you'd even consider anything Samsung related.
What I would do if I were manufacturer hellbent on spying would be to search for devices of my own brand nearby to pass data using their internet access, if no access found then extend search - basically p2p/mesh network to pass data.
I'm sorely tempted to go down that road, I have a few frames. They've never been connected to the Internet, but the software on them is trash - literally the only thing I ever want it to do is display art (in standby) or display the Apple TV connected to HDMI.
Claude is absurdly sensitive to anything that touches cyber, and threatens bans if it gets a whiff of a pentest going on. it wouldnt surprise me if openai had a similar approach.
Yesterday I joked that claude gave me a cyber stop for asking how to make the anime girl video for an exploit, but it was a thing that happened. Meanwhile im trying to convince people around me that having grok nudify people isnt "fine" just because grok says it is. Its wild where the lines a drawn.
Claude is so absurdly bad about false triggers for security. It kept triggering when I asked it questions about how to plant some tree saplings I got because somehow that was a security risk.
Would you mind copy+pasting the text that you fed it that led to that refusal? That's so bizarre. It would be really interesting to try and guess at what exactly in the message set it off. Over-indexed on biology refusals, perhaps?
I'm in the new CVP, and even Mythos gave me a cyber stop just for creating an MCP server that can remotely connect to my Steam Frame to run commands. It must've thought I was trying to create a centralized malware or something.
Not even sure why Mythos even still exists when it's identical to Fable in every way, including refusing to do stuff that looks like it could ever be repurposed into unapproved use cases.
The whole point of Fable was that it's Mythos but with extra guardrails, yeah. But now that Project Glasswing has been folded into the CVP, Mythos seems to have the exact same guardrails now
We're all naked under our clothes, I don't see the problem. One of the funniest shock-bits I've ever seen was when Jon Stewart's book on American government and history included full-frontal (Photoshopped) nudes of SCOTUS, but I guess he couldn't get away with that during the current era of Puritanical panic.
It's just an adult human body, Michael, what could it cost? One('s) dignity?
Tastelessness aside, this seems perfectly rational to me. Unlike reverse engineering for the purpose of developing security exploits, "nudification" doesn't meaningfully expand the capabilities of malicious actors with access to free online porn and Photoshop.
Today is Sausage Saturday, not Taco Tuesday. Some people like their links and eggs, and... okay, I don't know how to double entendre this next part, but suffice it to say that it's bad faith to assume that everything related to the depiction of the natural human body is about degrading women.
This thread is literally about Grok publicly nudifying women, and people are out here saying it's comparable to seeing somebody's lunch...I know HN is a boys' club and all but this is pretty bad even by normal HN standards.
No one else mentioned women. You're the one who assumed nudification was only of women and only of unwilling subjects. I've seen people use it on pictures of themselves for... enhancement and personal gratification. I've seen men and women use it to make spicy images of adult men. And if we're talking specifically about autonomy and control in depictions of a woman's body, I've seen some women complain about the overzealous guardrails of other image generators, where something as innocent as a touch-up of a photo of their own fully-clothed body was flagged as unsafe.
This issue isn't black and white, and you're casting unearned aspersions. We should have this conversation, in actual good faith.
That's one of the weirdest takes on here in a while.
I can develop security exploits myself just fine without the use of AI. Many people don't have the capability to use Photoshop and free online porn to deepfake someone else they might or might not personally know into a realistic video...
Honestly as someone with faily little experience in pentesting or photoshop but who has dabbled in both back in highschool. I think they would both take a similar amount of practice and skill to develop those abilities. They are complete opposites so i suspect the kind of person who is naturally good at photoshop to be bad at pentesting and vis versa. But if your going to dedicate a few hours of every day to learning a skill i dont think it matters which one you choose, a bit of time, practice, and natural interest and you will be able to do the kind of work that people ask these llms to do.
The major difference being that it usually takes longer to study code because projects can be massive but at the same time the llms are looking for everything and anything while a real attacker is usually looking for specific vulnerabilities in common libraries and such so i wouldnt exactly call the amateur hacker on par with an llm but i would say they could do a similar amount of damage without llm assistance. And photoshop is basically the same. Spend a few hours every day dedicated to one thing and you will learn how to do it.
The headline is misleading, but the "article" is only five screenshots of Twitter posts. Someone used AI to decrypt the Samsung TV's firmware and found always on listening, classification, lots of privacy nightmares. Then their (the hacker's, not Samsung's) OpenAI got suspended for "Cyber Abuse".
Right, but still: OpenAI provided a service and it's up to them to determine acceptable use. Samsung sells a $3000 (or actually $2999,95) TV and you get big brother watching you.
We don't really have any idea what was in his sessions or why he was suspended. It might have been a false positive in their automated system, or maybe he ranted at the model about how he was going to "destroy" Samsung with his findings and the automated systems took that literally. There are tons of examples around of people using models for reverse engineering, so we know it's unlikely that alone was the reason.
They don't know that. It's the hypocracy of not using their service to infringe on someone elses copyright. The only way Compaq could legally have a PC BIOS is by having one team reverse engineer the original and describe what it does and another team reimplement it.
Yes, it's completely hypocritical because of how LLMs are built. That doesn't change the fact that if you're offering a service online, you'd try to prevent abuse in order not to be held liable.
You can do the same with LLM. Have one session document something, and other session write up an implementation, with nothing but docs shared in between.
I agree with you, but if OpenAI wasn't suspending users for exposing cyber-spying that these consumer companies like Samsung are doing, more and more people would expose such issues.
With Kimi K3.1 Pro, today WAS the day they actually caught up.
I’ve been saying this for the past few months - once the inflection point happens (such as today), it’s only a matter of 2 years when American closed models won’t be able to catch up with Chinese open models
They claim that the default datasets contain so much cyber stuff, so that their models became quite good at it.
They filtered the data before training to not contain this. So it's not that they train the model to not do it. They rather not have it in the Corpus at all. In theory
Chinese models don't need to stay open. The open weight ones just need to have nearly the same capabilities as the models sold by US companies. When that's the case, no one will have a reason to continue paying anything to any US company, thus destroying their business model and business case.
Idk about the destroying their business model part. Running your models on your own is akin to running a media server, which most people seem to be fine paying $20/m for someone else to do.
Well, maybe if your own media server only showed videos in 1fps compared to hosted ones. You’re not comparing apples to apples here. You might argue that local inference speeds are acceptable, but that doesn’t make them comparably equivalent.
AI companies can’t sustain this bleeding of runway. Eventually they’re all going to have to significantly bump up pricing. I guarantee personal accounts will be between double and triple your current internet and phone plan combined
That is not going to convince people to self-host models. The AI companies effectively have infinite money. Even if they did somehow run out, the US government would bail them out just like they did the car manufacturers.
In fact they can be clearly worse, so long as they are same ballpark for many use cases.
I.e. I would pay 15-20% more for comparable work from an open model I control,rather than use anthro et al.
And it seems we've gotten to the point that frontier models benefits are marginal/nominal. Whereas, not long ago Claude was materially ahead and could do things the other models simply couldn't.
Yes, of course, IF a lot of things. But if we go by what the official positions of the government is, and where the ecosystem is today, then the models stay open, as they are. And today, the US models stay closed, so lets not assume "... IF they stay closed" as nothing is pointing to this changing, just like China seems to point towards staying with open models.
Maybe I'm just old fashioned or out of touch, but why is it such a barrier for people to treat their smart TV as a dumb display? Hook up a computer via HDMI and never connect the TV to wifi.
I understand that the tech in these things is a horrorshow, But so is the tech in every other smart device that normal ("I don't care how it works, just that it works" types) people allow into their homes every day - and these are the people who tech is built for, not "us". Of all the tech to raise red flags about, this seems the easiest to mitigate.
And to be completely fair, I haven't purchased a new TV (Projector yes, TV no) since I bought my plasma in 2014. That 2014 TV has smart features as well but has just never been hooked up to the internet. Maybe the new rigs can't be used until connected to a network but I wouldn't know. Enlighten me if this is the case.
One way that you probably are behind on the goings on in the TV market are that there are whole TV brands that require you to login just to use the television at all, like Roku.
These are usually the cheap models, the kind that are heavily subsidized by spyware, but the fact that this exists at all is seriously not cool.
I imagine that you can login to those televisions once and then take them offline, though I haven’t tried personally.
The other thing I would say is that here we are asking customers to basically buy duplicate products and that second product might still engage in spyware.
E.g., I’ve bought a $500 TV that comes with Roku or whatever. It already runs all my streaming apps. So the strategy now is to turn off internet on that TV and now I have to buy a streaming box and hope that it’s less intrusive. If we decide maybe Apple is the one with the least intrusive ads and tracking, that’s now $300, almost doubling the cost of the TV.
And if we buy some other streaming box like Roku or Amazon well guess what they have all the same sorts of telemetry and ads going on.
To fully remove the national spy network from your life you would have to get rid of all other devices that will collect the same data or do already. Smartphones, smartwatches, home security systems, Wifi, any computer or device you did not build yourself, TVs, any other "smart" device, anything that has electricty going to it, any car since OnStar in the 1990s, all delivery trucks and self driving cars, your neighbors security system, devices that broadcast IDs, even bluetooth devices... So many examples..
The amount of devices in the national spy network which is passed off as just advertisement data is really providing full spectrum live video and audio to third parties that can and do share it for any reason that benefits them.
You also have to create an account to use an Osmo action cam. I almost sent the damn thing back upon finding out, but as it turns out, you can make a fake mail, fake account, and after having connected once you can treat it as if it never happened.
>Hook up a computer via HDMI and never connect the TV to wifi.
Having just gone through this...it's a lot harder than you think.
Current gen TVs have specs that garden variety connect a computer can't supply over HDMI. You need HDMI 2.1 with FRL to hit it. So you climb onto google, discover yes there are minipc that can do that...except only the new ones...the "AI" ones that cost you an arm and a leg. Also they need fast DDR5 memory which is great fun right now. And the more affordable ones are AMD so no quicksync.
So you think lets maybe do a USBC dongle to an existing device, only to discover that they require different firmware (!) on the dongle depending on whether you're using a mac or a windows PC [0]. And then you realize you actually need a cable capable of 48gbps and none of the ones lying around are labelled so you have to buy a new one just in case. And after you've done all that you still don't know why its connecting at 120hz not 144hz per TV specs. And then the whole media encoding circus starts...
I can 100% understand why people just type in wifi password and call it a day. The average consumer is not up for flashing firmware onto dongles to watch their big brother series.
No streaming app is giving you a video feed with 48Gbps of data (more like 5-15 Mbps), and no one produces 120 or 144Hz video (most movies/TV are still 24Hz aren't they?), so there's no point in sending that kind of signal to a TV (you'll just have a crisp, high refresh signal of the low refresh blurry compression artifacts), but even ignoring that, cheap n100 minipcs can do 4k60 or 1k240 just fine (I use a minipc as my desktop with a 4k240 OLED).
They are and that's part of the reason why it matters.
144/24 = 6
120/24 = 5
60/24 = 2.5
TVs compensate by showing you every 2nd image longer causing a slight but noticeable judder effect. Panning shots don't look smooth etc. Much like font kerning once you see it you can't unsee it.
Plus ofc other uses like gaming. And frankly I also didn't want to set up a home theater with half the tech modern, the other half not. A bit like you want your PC screen and GPU to be paired well and not a 1080p screen with a 5090...
My minipc has no issue outputting at 24 or 23.976 or 30 or 29.97 or 59.94 Hz either. And again that big brother series on the smart TV app is going to be garbage quality anyway. It's like setting up a 4k240 OLED and 5090 to run an N64 emulator to play games with a 20 FPS limit and prerendered backgrounds with no texture replacers or anything.
And for "other uses like gaming" you are using an external computer over HDMI, not smart TV apps.
Ive been motivated recently to start making my appliances mine by using Ai to reverse engineer and replace their firmware.
So long as the appliance has been slow to update its security channels, the recent eMudrha certificate leak was the perfect opportunity to place yourself in the middle of the relationship between device and vendor. Its allowed me to make some trivial updates to my television's firmware and start to have AI build me firmware that better serves my purposes. Hoping to lobotomize it and replace everything with a simple linux system that executes a startup script to launch a Jellyfin client.
I bought it and its mine, this is the freedom we were originally robbed of.
It's not hard; but often the TV will nag and nag until it gets a wifi connection.
And with how hard these manufacturers are trying, I wouldn't be at all surprised if they start including some alternate data connection for metadata/DRM/whatever. (ie, not the primary streaming data connection)
You are unlike most people. Most people just want to come home and watch TV. Historically it used to be cable, now it's YouTube or similar. What do you think is the quickest way to watch YouTube?
This is what I do. I find navigating with a remote control to be infuriating, especially when you need to search for something. With an old computer and wireless mouse and keyboard, it's so much better. Some minor configuration of Firefox's homepage and it's a fine start page for watching TV, with all your stuff right there. Plus you can have extensions that save hours of your life over time. The only downside is the remote becomes the literal keyboard and mouse which might be cumbersome for some, but I don't even think about it anymore. I've been using the same 50" for ten years.
Its all about UX, I recently got sick of my LG and switch to Apple TV and made LG a dumb TV with HDMI, and surprisingly UX ia significantly worse. Apple being Apple and force their shit weird UX. My kids can’t figure it out, they used to use LG TV by themselves to open what they want to open.
Even I fucking hate it because Apple UX. is just bunch of weird behaviors popping out from every action. Apple UX rant aside, similarly many solutions has tons of UX problems, connecting a PC to TV unfortunately leads to even more problems.
All of these shit supposed to work but in practice way too many edge cases, and random issues.
Funny I am also using a Plasma from around that time (Samsung one but hopefully too dumb to spy). I guess the problem is that they'll keep turning the screws, in the same way it gets harder and harder to use Windows and Office without an account and internet connection.
As a result I'm not upgrading my TV anytime soon, and when I do, I hope to find a dumb one.
Just a reminder. You can buy a kiosk TV from major TV manufacturers. You just have to look a little. Kiosk TVs are intended for lobby signage or conference rooms. You pay a little more but the garbage UI and always on piece is gone. You get 4 HDMI with them too (from what I've used).
There’s a meaningful difference between ML algorithms and the Grail that is (general) AI. Many of us spent years arguing that words matter and now with the VC backed hype train just about everything is AI, under penalty of stock market collapse
Because just about everything is AI. AI in itself is a rather useless term, and that was years ago.
The differences are not really that great most of the time. Quite often one type of logic in one type of ML network can be easily simulated in something like a generic transformer network and vice versa. Efficiency is typically the biggest constraint.
The AI in the TV was listening for dogs barking and babys crying, a gross invasion of privacy. Possibly this could have been for ad targeting purposes.
With projects like REA, it's going to get harder and harder for companies to get away with things like this.
I'd love to see the major social media apps reverse engineered and analyzed in this way. I can only imagine the dodgy practices that'll be found if this happens.
Jaded part of me thinks companies are going frontier-model-vibe-code their security into security chips everywhere, encrypted firmware everywhere, locked down APIs everywhere and it’s going to take away the fun out of it.
> With projects like REA, it's going to get harder and harder for companies to get away with things like this.
Nope, don't worry, if you clicked on the linked you'd see OpenAI has already banned this person's account. Chinese models you say? See today's new Kimi release which intentionally had all cyber-related data removed from its training data. The window is already rapidly closing and will soon be completely closed.
As far as I can tell, there is no write up. This is a reddit post with screenshots of a Twitter/X post by @log4j. Even the Twitter post doesn’t seem informative, but Reddit isn’t a source for the information by any means.
The original link was on HN two days ago with no traction.
So a bit of background I spent the last 17 years going Smart TV app development.
Not a lot here is any sort of surprise to anyone in the industry.
Always on audio is common on a whole swath of devices - any that want to do Alexa style voice prompts need it. ACR is table stakes for modern TVs reselling viewer data has driven down TV prices to the point where there is no going back.
The policy file here is how you build Tizen apps. It’s a list of specific features your app needs access to and certain levels of access (controlling the TV For example) require different levels of contractual relationships with Samsung.
Everything Samsung collects should be covered in their, very dense, TOS.
I spent a couple years working at the platform (AndroidTV + Google Assistant) level on smart TVs.
> any that want to do Alexa style voice prompts need it
Not technically true. More modern smart TVs (~post-2021) put speech recognition models for the hotword only onto the DSP, and then have the DSP wake up the CPU for further auditory processing when it detects a hotword or remote button press. There are major power-efficiency benefits to this, because the DSP uses a fraction of a watt and can easily keep running while the TV is sleeping, while the CPU, Internet, and rest of the circuitry is a major power hog. Your smart TV or streaming dongle would basically never sleep if it were forever running the audio capture.
For that matter, it's pretty rare for the device to actually run the speech recognition models on-device. Smart TV manufacturers are very sensitive to BOM costs, which means that their hardware is only powerful enough to run machine-learning models at the extreme high end of their product range. Most of the time the full audio gets streamed back to the Internet and the speech recognition & voice assistant gets run in the cloud, with commands streamed back to the TV.
I won't say that it never has always-on audio listening; a significant number of devices I tested did. But I'll say this comes because they're poorly implemented. The DSP hotwording approach requires coordination between hardware and software developers, oftentimes across companies, and it's more complex to implement and a lot of executives don't care about the marginal consumer benefit it gives. Many smart TVs just guzzle power when they're off instead.
Yeah I don’t disagree, but should clarify that I’m just referring to the security policy that provides access to the ambient mic. How the app/platform handles that audio is a different path that I’m not entirely familiar with.
N you please answer one thing for my peace of mind?
If I use a TV like the ones you’ve worked on, and never ever connect it to any WiFi network since the day I bought it, is there any way they still call home and pass their payload?
Like searching for and connecting to an open WiFi network, some kind of relay through another device over Bluetooth or any other way I haven’t thought of yet?
Not really, that said it’s trivial to disable, you can opt out either via their settings or just by not connecting the TV to the internet.
I will say that how “completely” disabling ACR via settings works is not terribly clear and there are a few lawsuits questioning wether “opting out” actually works as presented.
Plus you can bet there will be a never-ending stream of "oops, a bug meant that toggle hasn't worked in 7 years, our bad. Have a free year of credit monitoring, on us!" announcements. Some might even be real accidents!
Oh no, how will Samsung survive this, they will have to send $5 to few thousands of people for the damages if they decide to start a class action lawsuit and if a judge/jury decides it was really causing damages... as a reminder Samsung Electronics made almost 250 B-B-B-B-illion dollars in revenues just last year.
I would avoid and distrust most social forums, such as reddit, that have Pookas which are fond of rumpots, crackspots and how are you bix6? -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeEsx2QLJ40
What do you mean? I can post whatever I want on Reddit and I can make it have as many upvotes as I need. They basically make bot farms undetectable, by hiding histories and automatic username selection. Literally nothing should be considered truth with Reddit as its only source
> Literally nothing should be considered truth with Reddit as its only source
Don’t get me wrong: I completely agree that Reddit should not be the only source, and go further that nothing should be assumed to be true based on Reddit signals (such as upvotes and comments). This is why I carefully chose my words: these can be strong signals of truth.
I think it’s also worth parsing out that I don’t think this is valid across all subreddits.
In Reddits case the stock price is based on nobody noticing that most of the users fled. Now they have to AI translate Indian content into English (and vice-versa) to keep up the illusion that people still use it.
At some point this will drive away the remaining users and it will just be bots and Reddits machine translations of those bot posts. At that point AI companies will just be paying to train on machine translated versions of content they generated to begin with.
When I was in college this sharp phd student told me that your phone, tv, and other devices talk to each other via radio frequency to build a profile on you. I've seen zero proof of this anywhere and I still think about why he told me that.
Some version of this has been posted a dozen times now. The dog barking and baby crying detection are advertised features of this product range which is used for SmartThings integration.
Swarms of RE-hopefuls are now using tools they don't understand to work on projects they don't understand. Anyone doing RE knows step 1 is read public documentation, FCC filing, patent applications, etc. That step would tell you what the device does out of the box, no RE required to find everything the OP has actually uncovered.
Instead they busted out Claude and have been gaslit by their own AI into thinking they've discovered something. They just discovered features that Samsung has been pitching for years.
It's been a feature of the phones for years too.
While caution is definitely warranted after LG, I am definitely getting the impression that people are far too quick to jump to conclusions because an A.I. service told them something without them factually checking it first
Is there a non-Twitter source to read the whole thing? Were all of them banned?
If OpenAI really banned him for that reason, that would be pretty stupid. If you can no longer use an LLM for reverse engineering without worrying about your account, that drastically reduces its value.
FWIW I've spent the past few days happily reverse-engineering various aspects of DOS games I've long been curious about. I finally understand how Arjan Brussee did the scrolling in Jazz Jackrabbit. No pushback from Claude so far.
In my efforts to reverse engineer the LG firmware to validate Gamers Nexus claims, I got a warning very quickly. I appealed that quickly and successfully.
Then I applied for daybreak blue and haven’t had any issues since.
It also a matter of phrasing. Say what you want to achieve not how if it is approaching defensive or cyber stuff.
Also state you are working on your own devices and software. (If that is the case of course.)
Was this through a personal subscription? Last I looked into daybreak access, if required an organization based account.
Yes a personal subscription. Individuals can also request it. only blue for defensive questions. Red for offensive is gated to organisations that are proven to be using it for protecting.
https://chatgpt.com/cyber
Daybreak may remove the technical restrictions, but isn't that kind of use still against the ToS?
> If you can no longer use an LLM for reverse engineering without worrying about your account, that drastically reduces its value
...for a niche of customers, from whom the revenue is probably entirely negligible to OpenAI.
Not saying it's right, ethical or anything like that, but it's not "stupid"
> ...for a niche of customers, from whom the revenue is probably entirely negligible to OpenAI.
> Not saying it's right, ethical or anything like that, but it's not "stupid"
Quite many well-paying customers become very suspicious of whether integrating OpenAI into their workflows if they read about cases where OpenAI banned accounts willfully.
If OpenAI wants to become "infrastructure provider other companies should depend on (and thus pay)", OpenAI must behave like an infrastructure provider as for electricity or internet, i.e. must only ban accounts in exceptionally rare cases that 99.9 % of society will consider to be acceptable.
I think the biggest issues here will be for individuals.
For corporate accounts they are apt to get a message to the admin account saying suspicious shit is occurring provide more verification.
>OpenAI must behave like an infrastructure provider as for electricity or internet
Oh, you mean like Google? Yea, how's that working out.
> Oh, you mean like Google? Yea, how's that working out.
Because of such reasons many companies are indeed quite suspicious of using GCP, and for the same reasons prefer to use AWS or Microsoft Azure.
It creates a lot of uncertainty. Especially if you depend more and more on them in your day to day life.
If your always-on agent hears to wrong thing, you could lose access to things you depend on. The same reason makes GCP very unattractive.
There is a Rick and Morty episode where Rick opens up a store that removes the curses from free items the Devil is handing out.
(Surprisingly, the Devil does not consider lawyering up, which is odd because I would expect the Devil to be pretty familiar with lots of lawyers. It’s fiction of course.)
It would be great to use AI to do something analogous with these spy TVs. I would be very interested in stripping the “smart” crap out of my TV to turn it into a kiosk.
If only. The EFF has been harping about this for literally decades. The DMCA in the US and similar anti-circumvention laws around the world (primarily EU) make doing that a serious crime, with punishments well beyond any conceivable impact to society at large.
> The DMCA in the US and similar anti-circumvention laws around the world (primarily EU) make doing that a serious crime
Yes, this is the main reason why I mentioned the cartoon episode was unrealistic fiction.
I’d imagine a paid service that did this could be illegal. But prosecuting people who did this to their own hardware would be essentially impossible.
What’s a better way to make money than to sell the solution to a problem you created! Don’t let Samsung read this…
People were up in arms (and rightly so) when the LG TVs were found out for their spying thanks to the Gamers Nexus investigation. At least LG TVs can be rooted and you can install apps like Glasshouse [0] to disable all the telemetry and add substantial new features that you can't do via the officially sanctioned Dev Mode. The vulnerability that enabled rooting was recently patched so hopefully another can be found.
Hopefully similar apps will come along for Samsung now that root on it can be achieved [1].
[0] https://github.com/rorygallagher2024/glasshouse
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50218633
"Why you bother about local AI? LOL with the $ you spend for <insert hardware here> you can buy 5 years of 20x account". Yeah. 5 years where you are told what you can do.
It’s quite something when western companies act more like authoritarian governments than actual authoritarian governments. I just wish RAM was less expensive ;(
My guess is we're within a year of the first governments banning local LLM AI at any scale. Declare GPU's as munitions that must be registered and ban any card with more than X GB of RAM and more power than a 3060 or something like that.
That could be done with an executive order in the US, and it probably wouldn't take much to get it to pass congress.
Now, don't worry, businesses can still buy a lot more GPU compute than that, but they have to register and track their usage just like any other company making/buying weapons.
5 years where you can get arrested if the AI tattles to the feds.
Just wait till your GPU legally requires an online connection to run an LLM.
5 years, assuming the terms don't change.
from his twitter account:
> if your samsung TV model doesnt have a microphone, it will look for connected devices with one, such as a soundbar or a connected bluetooth device. this gets shipped off to bixby.
Is this not the expected function when you use bixby?
(Not saying people should use bixby mind you)
They hear us all the time, here is an anecdote...
I was at the butcher one day and asked for "ossobuco" because I wanted some bones for my dog, then all of a sudden I got reels with ossobuco in it, recipes, sellers, nearby shops, etc and I said WTF? Who the fuck makes posts about ossobuco? Why all of a sudden after using social apps just for football and porn all I start getting is ossobuco ads everywhere? A word you will never see anywhere now popping up in all my social feeds.
Possibility of that being random? Zero, not in this probabilistic universe we live in
I got had a similar thing happen. My buddy inherited a lake house from him father. The dock needed repair. We talked about it one evening and that same night, I got a dock supply house ad. We never once looked it up online since we are both general contractors and already know how to fix it.
Dock repair is too random of a subject to be a coincidence.
It's not. They can use your IP to see your approximate location is on a lake or your buddy did search and it associated to you via shared IP.
Yeah same experience. People working in Facebook (I had a friend there) say it is only pattern behaviour, they can predict your interests, check when you meet with your friends, share WIFIs, etc, so they can imagine things you have been talking about. I call this bullshit. I dont know if my friend working at Facebook believes this, or was just hiding it for me, but it's 0% chance of them doing that. Also because I never got any of these recommendations BEFORE I mentioned it out loud, which means their prediction engine (if it exists) also knows when I am going to talk about it!
I also got ads for things I have only thought about and never ever searched online or mentioned to anyone.
Doesn't mean my phone can suddenly read my mind - just that prediction algorithms + data from BLE trackers is incredibly good at guessing what I might be interested in. It's just crazy crazy good.
Also how many ads are we exposed to where we aren’t paying conscious attention to it?
Surely those ads could sometimes cause someone to think or talk about a concept that they might not have otherwise.
If the ad then pops up again and they notice it this time, it will feel really spooky!
I think it’s similar to the phenomenon where you learn a new word and then immediately see it out in the wild somewhere. It grabs your attention because you were just thinking about it.
In the original example of ordering meat from the butcher, I also wonder if it’s possible that the data from that purchase was tracked and fed into the ad system. That seems more plausible to me than the “phone listening” theory.
Sorry, but there’s just zero evidence that your phone is listening to you like this. There never has been. Lots of people have tried to uncover such evidence. On the iPhone at least (not as familiar with Android), it’s not even clear how your phone would be listening and sending the data to Meta.
This isn’t happening.
>I dont know if my friend working at Facebook believes this, or was just hiding it for me, but it's 0% chance of them doing that. Also because I never got any of these recommendations BEFORE I mentioned it out loud, which means their prediction engine (if it exists) also knows when I am going to talk about it!
He's just repeating the internal propaganda. The truth is reserved to a small team that implemented the spyware who are highly incentivized to never give any hint. Your friend doesn't work for that team.
I estimate the team size to be fewer than a dozen people. The managers above them that know about it are even fewer, with only one or two reporting to Zuck. And possibly they're so mentally retarded they don't necessarily understand it.
Don't ever install the Facebook app on your phone.
I'm curious if someone has started cataloging these cases. These spying TVs seem like a common industry practice.
I believe GamersNexus were talking about doing more exhaustive testing across different brands after their video on LG models specifically.
A video on vulnerabilities in Asus routers was released yesterday: https://youtube.com/watch?v=kYnwCx2SNYY
But if you are talking TVs specifically, I expect they will get back to that too.
https://mrbruh.com/asusrouter/
Nice.It's been many years, but they last time I tried that app it was completely useless.
There really wasn't a lot of new information in the Gamer's Nexus video. Most of what people think is new is people conflating what is possible vs what LG does and people conflating what is possible on a rooted TV vs what LG does. The whole video is very long and because it's so poorly organized and deceptively presented, it looks like LG is worse than everyone else. Rally they're just doing what we've known for a while that all TV manufacturers are doing.
> ...it looks like LG is worse than everyone else.
IIRC, it's mentioned at at least one point in the first big video on the topic that they haven't tested other manufacturers "'Smart' TVs" but would not be surprised to discover that other manufacturers are doing the same thing. They're not a news organization owned by one of the 0.1%, so they can only do investigation and reporting so quickly.
> There really wasn't a lot of new information in the Gamer's Nexus video.
I'm not sure which video you're talking about.
If you were expecting the recent one that talks about the lulzy ASUS RCE and how it could interact with "'Smart' TVs" to have even more information about "TV" vulnerabilities or consumer-hostile features, then your expectations are out of line.
If you're asserting that you knew nearly everything in the initial "Wow, these LG 'Smart' 'TVs' can really easily become always-on spy devices, and -in some respects- already are!" video, well, okay? There are those of us who know that shady shit is going on because we have ten brain cells to rub together, a moderate level of awareness of the world around us, and can pretty easily connect the dots. It's an entirely different thing to demonstrate that that is going on for the benefit of people who are -for some reason- reluctant to believe that -yes- Big Megacorps do heinous things to their customers in order to make a bit more money because they don't expect to get caught... and even if they get caught, the punishment will only be a tiny fraction of the profit gotten from doing those things. [0]
[0] The biggest irony here is that objections to claims that this is how Big Megacorps typically do business with us Little People are often dismissed as "4D chess" or "conspiracy theories"... but, like, this behavior is a textbook example of a rational economic actor responding reasonably to market incentives. This is the "Invisible Hand Of The Market" at work.
He bought a whole bunch of TVs and he’s testing them right now. Check out his YT channel.
They could have started with actually decrypting what was sent rather than a breathless 2 hours of monetised nonsense. Show me the http posts with the data that's actually sent.
Folks, we need to move on from "this is outrageous!" to "what can we do to stop it?"
This is why you buy a display panel and not a smart TV.
Or just buy the subsidized TV and never connect it to the internet. I've yet to see them adding cellular modems.
I'll probably get a kiosk panel next time. But this time, yeah, I've just not configured the network. All content comes from the console. Which is a different bundle of problems and no better in a lot of ways, but it's more of a known quantity.
>and never connect it to the internet
That saves you from some potential issues but not others. My google search magic isn't working, but there was some manufacture a number of years ago who's TVs were crashing because they'd save up massive amounts of data to upload and either exhaust all their memory or fill up the disk because it never connected online.
Also, if you live in a household you have to make sure every other person behind that TV doesn't connect it to the net at some point for some reason.
Oh no! My TV turned off for a few seconds...
> Also, if you live in a household you have to make sure every other person behind that TV doesn't connect it to the net at some point for some reason
You could always ban it from your network at the router.
Still doesn't stop them from connecting it to wifi sharing on the phone.
Right......
Like none of these TV's hooks to an Open Wifi Hotspot and abuse you.
How many open WiFi networks are around you? I live in a city and there are 0 within range. ISP routers have defaulted to password protection for more than a decade. The only places with open WiFi are places of business that provide guest work. Even those are far less common and usually password protected these days.
Trivial to prove that, just set up an open wifi and show it connecting, getting an IP, and then transmitting data.
I haven't managed to reproduce it.
I've seen this "yeah well they'll just connect to open WiFI" for 10+ years at this point and have never seen any vaguely credible reproduction.
Best you get is "my friend's LG TV connected to the internet even after changing his WiFI password" vaguely recalled hearsay.
Or the second order retreat-to-motte argument of "well they'll add that to the firmware overnight when ad revenues drop if enough people stop connecting to the internet".
It'd be trivial to prove and yet it has never been proven. I'll give you three guesses why, and the first two don't count.
That's exactly the point.
Underrated approach. Even if the screens are a tad more expensive by today's subsidized standards. There are also many FHD and 4k non-smart TVs on the second hand market, with many given away for free on your preferred marketplace website.
an aside. I'm visiting my wife's parents and they have a new samsung TV. the remote doesn't even have an input selection button on it anymore. the default state of the tv pushes you to a big complicated home screen covered in ads and always pushing you towards their streaming live TV.
they like most poeople have a cable box plugged in, but every time the tv is switched off, the default behaviour of the tv is to forget what input it was on and goes back to the home screen where you have to use a convoluted set of button presses to get back to a non-samsung, non-app device.
You can switch this off somewhere in the settings, something they would never figure out on their own, so that it re-opens on the last selected input. I did this in the past, but then it seems an OS update wiped out all the settings, including the one that makes their cable remote work with the TV.
there is now no doubt that the TV is made to function primarily as an ad-delivery machine with explicit dark patterns built in for the task. I did them one more favour and reset their ad id and unchecked all the consent boxes on the privacy terms pages
going forward anyone who cares about their choice and privacy should not allow their TV to connect to a network at all and simply use it as a dumb link to their devices of choice, or ideally, find a better company to buy from, if that exists.
My CPAP machine has a modem in it that transmits data without ever being connected to my network. I can see a future where Samsung decides to do something similar. Perhaps even contracts with Starlink so they can transmit even larger chunks of real-time data. It makes me sick to think about that possibility, but I don't think it's far-fetched.
I doubt any TV company will ever do this, for two reasons. The first is simply that it would be obvious due to FCC filings. The second is that 99% of their customers hook their TV up to the internet so they can use streaming apps on their TV. They're very unlikely to eat the cost of putting a cellular model in every TV, take the PR hit for doing so, simply to capture the ACR data of the 1% of their customer base that is most likely to figure out another way to disable it.
Whereas your CPAP machine is likely a high margin device and the reason it has that modem is because insurance companies require compliance data in order to continue providing coverage for replacement supplies. Resmed or whoever is happy to bundle in the cost of the modem + service in order to keep selling high margin supplies.
"SAMSUNG ERROR 306, TV will not unlock until you give it a clear connection to starlink"
Just another line in our "Please drink verification can world".
Also reminds me of the TVs that eventually crashed by collecting to much data but having no internet connection to upload it so it fills up the disk.
> the default state of the tv pushes you to a big complicated home screen covered in ads and always pushing you towards their streaming live TV.
Audible does this now too. Instead of opening up to your library and your books on default it opens to an obnoxious home screen that promotes Prince Harry and Kara Swisher's books. It's so annoying. I'm not in the market for Prince Harry's book and I will never be in the market for Prince Harry's book, stop shoving his face at me all the time. I wish we could block certain authors and books from showing up in our ads constantly but there is no way to do it!
Samsungs interface is godawful.
TVs once had a simple input button on the controller. Now there’s just the Home Screen that you described. It’s very confusing to use
The idea was always that Facebook or Google were listening to us and whenever we would talk about something we would shortly thereafter see an ad related to it.
Now we can basically say that its not Facebook and Google doing this directly, its our televisions and appliances that are listening and just selling that data back to the ad-networks.
This is similar to Flock and Palantir who collect info the government is not allowed to and then sell it to the government.
In this case Meta, Google etc can honestly say they aren't surrepticiously listinging to you or collecting data not in their privacy statement. They just buy it instead.
So I need to write a chaffing agent that runs when I am not home and randomly spouts synthetic conversations through non-smart speakers about nappies (kids a re long gone), nuclear weapons development, plumbing, union membership, crochet, video games, crypto coins, and other things we don't normally do.
This does not mean that Google and Facebook never do it.
> Now we can basically say that its not Facebook and Google doing this directly
Finding out that TVs are listening does not mean Google and Facebook aren't. I've had plenty of times in an old car, or on a walk talking about something only to have related ads pop up later.
They can already do that with most of the information they already have, they don't need to listen for that type of thing (though they still might be as you see here, data is data after all).
Most people are not that unique. They know where you are and who you are with and any searching or sites you have been to and what is in your text messages or whatsapp as well as that same information for all the people 6 degrees away from you. They know people like you, who are your age and like the things you like and are where you are with friends like yours etc etc it goes on and on.
People rarely talk about things unprompted and you will only notice when you think you talked about something and then see an ad for it so there is a confirmation bias as well.
Has this not been proven by now? That smart devices are used to do this, including smartphones? Their OSes just ship with apps that that record that audio information right out of the box.
Facebook was always doing this. It just wasn't proven they were.
VoIP has been around for 25 years. Compressed audio is a tiny amount of packets. It doesn't need HD audio, it just needs enough to recognize words. Enterprise VoIP only needed a 128kb connection 25 years ago to work. On a smartphone, 128kb is nothing and will blend in with background connections. Facebook could record and monitor your audio 24/7 and it won't even be a blip in the network traffic, especially if it does a quick process of the audio before sending it to Facebook.
That's a pretty good point. We kept hearing these rumors for a while now and all the usual suspects keep saying "we don't listen to your microphone on your phone" but yeah nobody expects the TV and fridge to do it, so maybe that's how it happens and people are not crazy.
That's just weasel language. For "hey, Google" to work, the phone needs to listen. Just like it can react to "hey, Google", it can also react to any amount of other trigger words without ever actually recording your conversation.
To what extend do these "smart" products state how, when and what data they are collecting and selling?
Isn't it high time for legislation that at least makes it clear on the box what kind of sensors and integrations it has and how bad the product is privacy wise?
Also, shouldn't corporate spying disguised as automated content recognition and classification be limited or outright be banned?
And all this connected garbage should by law be able to function with the cord cut and without registration, and if an update negatively changes the advertised product characteristics the customer must be allowed to return it for full paid price even if it is 10 years old. Force the manufactures to make statements on the "box" about the features, the support duration and level, and the privacy characteristics.
Why don't politicians care about this?
Why don't politicians care about this?
Because there have not yet been any high profile cases involving the collected data used to embarrass or convict a politician. It just takes one embarrassed congress critter to get a giant red sticker on all these devices, their boxes and ads: "This Device Transcribes and Reports Your Conversations" and that is before including those that upload camera screenshots of what you are watching and video of the viewers doing something untoward.
This is literally the history of the Video Privacy Protection Act (1988, back when video rental was a thing). It was passed immediately after, in 1987, a journalist obtained and published the video rental history of a supreme court judge nominee.
Your outrage is well earned, but fairly rare. The reason nothing is done is because the public doesn't care.
> Why don't politicians care about this?
Because it is not the subject that will win them the next election.
And even if they care, some things are easier said than done. With politicians who care, you get things like GDPR, which goes in the right direction, but is a huge legal mess. And it is a mess because it can't be made simple.
Obviously, you have to take consumer interests into account, but you also have to take companies interest into account too, both big and small, otherwise they will just stop doing business, which is bad for the economy and will mean that consumers won't find what they want at a reasonable price. You have to think about the loopholes big companies will invariably find, and covering them will add complexity, but still make it so that small companies can comply without a full time team of lawyers assisting them.
For example, you say the consumer could return it for a full refund on a bad update, but to whom? Should the burden be put on the small retailer who sold it to you (and may be out of business)? There is already plenty of stuff the manufacturer must tell you, usually one a piece of paper no one reads, and the more you ask, the less people will read because there will be too much information. A "privacy score" may be a good idea, if well designed, it will share a place with the energy score, environment score, repairability score, safety signs, origin, etc... And how do you differentiate actual automated content recognition that consumers could want from spyware, formally, so that the first one is allowed but not the latter.
All that to say that it is not impossible, but even with politicians caring, it is complicated. European politicians care (because it can win them votes), the results are so complicated they are getting ridiculed by the rest of the world.
They don't care because of several reasons. 1. They get paid not to 2. They are told not to.
Alot of this spying ends up producing valuable data for different agencies to purchase which otherwise they cannot legally obtain without a warrant. Sure some of it has some commercial value, but a lot of it is probably more valuable for domestic spy operations.
They still can’t technically obtain it without a warrant. They do it anyway.
Politicians didn’t even do anything about Epstein. I’m pretty sure they’re all compromised.
Who bears responsibility when TV makers and data brokers undoubtedly had clear and verifiable evidence passing through their systems?
Follow the money
> Also, shouldn't corporate spying disguised as automated content recognition and classification be limited or outright be banned?
A lot of info collected by 3 letter agencies is based on it.
Claude Code for coding and DeepSeek + opencode for reverse engineering at this point.
DeepSeek will break the binary into code and Claude will search for problems. Now you have most of exploitation chain.
Can you share the details of your stack? I have some obscure commercial Windows software from 90s I wish to run. Claude refuses any RE attempts.
Dude they just did. If you didn't understand it then you aren't gonna be able to use it.
I'm also interested in your setup!
Police and FBI need a warrant to bug your home.
Samsung just needs you to buy a TV.
It’s called Terms of Service agreement
Leading to one of my favourite jokes: The Soviet Union is socialist, and bugs it's citizen's homes. America, though, is capitalist - the people must buy their own bugs.
They need to you blindly accept the terms and conditions and think "oh that seems fine" instead of returning it and costing them money.
This is known? [0]
[0] https://r2.community.samsung.com/t5/SmartThings/SmartThings-...
Dog bark and baby crying detection are advertised features for SmartThings integrations. Door bell and door knocking are also included, this is surfaced directly if you hook the TV or sound bar into SmartThings.
I had to check this and it's true. Not saying Samsung or 3rd parties don't take advantage of any data they can collect, but the story the tweets tell is super biased against them. Here, the detection seems limited to specific pattens required for a particular feature.
In fairness, they have not earned the benefit of the doubt based on past behavior.
These folks recently did tests on major TV brands, not accepting the on-device consent forms, and then recording how much data they continued to send after consent was denied (which itself is not always possible). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_GK06_3UY8
Samsung was the single brand reviewed which actually stopped sending data after the user told it to do so.
I'm pretty sure it was actually LG?
In February Samsung agreed to stop collecting the data when opted out in the US after a few lawsuits were lining up. LG was the target of a different lawsuit in Texas which they settled and then wrote up a forced arbitration clause and doubled-down on data collection, even when opted out.
Don't buy LG TVs.
Oh don't worry, shitty WebOS is enough to put me off that (I unfortunately own one). However in this case we were talking specifically about that recent study of the effects of opt-outs, and for LG TVs the opt-out did result in the no longer detecting any tracking.
Yep, lg. After all, they believe that own your living room and their actions reflect this.
Still, calling it "PRIVACY HORROR" as per original post is typical twitter-style sensation seeking. It's an opt-in dog barking detection that causes local chip to listen for... dog barking
But does this mean they don't turn this on by default resell that data? X house has dogs or whatever?
We clearly need a whole new privacy framework where everything is optional and opt-in, plus open software to monitor this compliance.
If they wanted to know if you had dogs or babies and wanted to spy on you, they'd just transcribe the audio. People that have dogs or babies talk about them. Going to the effort to detect these and advertise it as a feature so you can secretly use it for marketing doesn't make a lot of sense.
At this point everyone knows you have a cat, dog or baby. Facebook, Instagram can scan your photos and see it. Same with Google via Photos' latest privacy changes. Google also knows if you ever get receipts emailed to you. Your credit card company and bank know, the CC company resells that data too. Shit, Keurig knows because their smart coffee maker scans the network and sees your baby monitor or smart pet food dispenser. All these companies are rediscovering and selling the same basic facts about you and your household.
I will add: Use the TV as a HUB for all IOT, light sensor so you know when the light is on or someone passes in front of the TV and there are some others but I can't remember now. They are all advertised in the Smart Things app.
I hate 2 things about my samsung tv's (I have 4 only samsung): the simplistic remote and ads on home screen. Even with custom dns sometimes they get through.
Remember guys, if they are reading it for wrongthink, they are reading it for industrial espionage.
Anthropic and openAI just announced they’re spinning out competitors to their biggest customers… right after ingesting all of their IP and contracts. Do the math.
(Or don’t, because they’ve been caught stealing math research)
> Anthropic and openAI just announced they’re spinning out competitors to their biggest customers… right after ingesting all of their IP and contracts. Do the math.
Do you have any links to further reading on this. I haven't read anything like this and also couldn't find anything in their newsrooms. The only thing I read is that they want to have more people work on implementations.
I think it's just a logical conclusion if everyone keeps feeding OpenAI and Anthropic data. I don't think it's imminent, but if AI keeps improving and regulation is very lax I could see this world developing in 5-10 years.
Say OpenAI builds GPT-11 and they realize it can do 95% of their clients work. Why not hire away key people from the client or the client's competitors and start eating into their market share? OpenAI would realize if GPT-11 has this ability then Anthropic is probably able to do the same thing. The company that has the most money and credit available is going to be able to buy more compute. OpenAI and Anthropic cannot slow down unless mandated to by the government.
>Say OpenAI builds GPT-11 and they realize it can do 95% of their clients work. Why not hire away key people from the client or the client's competitors and start eating into their market share?
Can you give me an example where this would make sense, because I just don't see e.g. OpenAI starting a grocery store chain or Anthropic building a wind turbine manufacturing company.
What I can see is that some company's products become useless, e.g. translation tools, as it is something that you can just do within ChatGPT or Claude.
I am thinking a little further into the future where companies and people themselves become more dependent on AI. If LLMs disappeared today how many companies and people could not function? Probably not many. But, in 5 years how many companies will be dependent on AI? A future where companies are dependent on big AI labs to run their business could happen. I think the business term is forwards integration, where a seller moves into one of their buyer's markets.
Also, in such a future businesses would be reorganized to use AI. That probably means less employees and reduced human complexity. The business processes are further abstracted from people making it easier for a big AI lab to move in.
If I was looking at businesses today where the big AI labs could step in I would look for businesses where they earn high margins based on intellectually complex tasks. Maybe the most pure example would be trading in the stock market since it can be completely done by a computer. Then you have areas like law which process large amounts of data but are also heavily based on relationships.
You picked physical work, but how about consulting or sales?
For consulting they don't need to start a new company. If they eat part of that market it would be with their current products where someone uses AI instead of hiring a consulting company. So a similar approach to what happened with translation.
For sales I'm sorry, but I don't think sales companies exist? Sales is usually just a part of another company. Some of those employees might be made redundant as AI products complete part of their work, but that would also happen through OpenAI's or Anthropic's products.
So for both of those I don't see what kind of company they could spin off (excluding the example of a company that does AI implementations as I mentioned that one in my initial comment) that would compete with an existing company. For all of these things offering a product that allows existing companies to replace employees sounds like the more scalable, profitable and flexible strategy.
Interesting. Could you share a link to this announce?
> because they’ve been caught stealing math research
No. They haven't been caught stealing. Tristan Buckmaster publicly expressed surprise that the OpenAI model has used the niche approach he pursued (with AI assistance). 10,000 agents exploring various approaches make it much less surprising.
Another anecdotal data from an arxiv preprint [0]: "After the paper was written, the author learned that the same result was also proved independently and by a different method by Ningyi Li [7]. The result is also contained in a paper [8] released by OpenAI on October 6, 2026, in which the proof strategy and specific choices of notation are identical to a preliminary version of the present paper that was uploaded to ChatGPT on September 8, 2026."
So not only did OpenAI publish a proof similar to one discussed on ChatGPT, but also there were other possible strategies to prove the result, that OpenAI didn't follow.
Also, up to my knowledge, on the free plan, OpenAI doesn't claim that they won't use the chat data for training. So this seems plausible.
[0]: https://arxiv.org/abs/2610.10072
The "coincidence" defense never works for random individuals so I won't buy it when it comes companies worth billions which will lie, cheat, and deceive to make even more billions. They've been caught lying and stealing again and again. After so many years of this I think any trust put in them is either blissful ignorance or willful misdirection.
Wait are you saying: 1) the simultaneous invention defense is never valid for individuals, and 2) you don’t base your beliefs on what’s right, but on some kind of tit-for-tat retaliation?
That seems like a fraught way to live.
You’re asking a loaded question based on things that were never said. Very lowbrow.
One thing is how uniformly a rule is applied. Another thing is how corect the rule is to begin with. I addressed the first because it’s far more straightforward and objective. You did some mental gymnastics to name-drop the second without even the effort to say something about it.
Another thing I addressed is the trustworthiness of these companies, or rather lack thereof. When they claim one thing in their interest it’s almost guaranteed to be deceiving. They lied to you again and again but they wouldn’t lie to you now, would they? You left that out completely, so maybe you even agree.
Next time if you want the courtesy of a reply, extend the courtesy of not bringing just a low-effort strawman.
It's not a coincidence... they literally just span up agents on every possible variant of the problem.
There are 10k agents and Tristan's approach wasn't even groundbreaking novelty, it was literally based on existing published literature from Diego Córdoba and Luis Martínez-Zoroa that the agents have seen.
It's not just probable that agents would persue his particular niche of trying to construct a blowup. It's guaranteed if you just consider the basic setup.
The coincidence is that they took the correct path out of “every possible one” exactly after one of their users took it.
Monkeys on typewriters excuse only works for huge companies who can afford to buy opinions.
> The coincidence is that they took the correct path out of “every possible one” exactly after one of their users took it.
From what I read online that researcher also used a lot of AI to find this approach, so it might just be the one that is the easiest to find for AI agents and the timing would then only be caused by them working on it around the same time.
They also took the correct path for hundreds of other problems, where they didn't have a user that already did.
> The coincidence is that they took the correct path out of “every possible one"
My point was explicitly that this didn't happen. I said that they took every possible path and published the one that worked. It's exactly throw shit at the wall and see what sticks.
> exactly after one of their users took it.
All parties agree that what happened is that someone had told someone working at OpenAI that Anthropic employees are working on Navier stokes. This is where the timing comes from.
---
What you are implying is this: OpenAI didn't do the throw shit at the wall approach as outlined in their release blog they actually secretely monitor everyones chat logs and found the idea in Tristan's Chat history and stole and published it.
Or some variant of this. You are only implying what you think is the truth, please state it outright. Don't beat around the bush.
I’ll start with this because it sets the tone for how informed your opinion is, and what you think is a far fetched conspiracy theory:
> they actually secretely monitor everyones chat logs
Are you for real? They openly monitor everyone’s logs. You can ask ChatGPT and it will literally tell you that they do it. That’s how they know (and yet still fail to report) that someone is planning a school shooting [0]. They monitor anything and anyone of interest.
Now if “having agents” was enough then we’d just ask for the cure for cancer or proof for every theorem and wait for a few days. Obviously they need guidance to not get stuck in a dead end or have to brute force everything. OAI’s mathematicians weren’t able to provide a good direction so the agents stalled until someone else found the key and only then OAI had their breakthrough.
[0] https://airisk.mit.edu/ai-incidents/1375-openai-allegedly-di...
This is again will be very funny race to watch. Right now you can fairly do lots of reverse enginnering or "hacking" with off the shelf Chinese models, and they are very capable (GLM3 for example) which can be run locally if you stomach the hardware. Tools like rea are also becoming more popular. If openai continues to be pedantic, they will lose the technical base given how close is the gap getting.
The company I work for has a plan B to switch to alternative, self-hosted models if providers pull off strange moves, such as drastic pricing changes. We have already switched from one provider to another once, and we do not want to get burned again. We do not reverse engineer, just regular development.
Until Kevin quits and you need to modify his work
Right, because admin is some obscure work in 2026 and no one knows how to do it.
How do you correlate owning an LLM implementation and "admin"?
Owning implementation = self-hosting one?
No I mean being responsible for the implementation and continued good functioning of something Kevin was responsible for before he quit. So uh self-hosting in a corporate context sure
But self-hosting is admin work, precisely. And everything was self-hosted or self-managed pre-cloud era. This is no different.
Have you tried Qwen3.8-Flash-Next? I found it significantly better in anything I tested than GLM5.3-Flash, but the thing is you either use Alibaba cloud or you host it yourself (no lesser quant than unsloth 4.5 or mx4/nvfp4 and kv no more quantized than int8).
It is great if you have enough RAM. I have enough to run it, but not enough for prefix cache. 27b is so much faster with long term tasks.
The Qwen3.8-Flash-Next model is ok for reverse engineering. It can definitely solve simple tasks, but it gets easily confused, and burns tokens like crazy.
I've been sick with stomach flu the past few days, so I put together a small benchmark for all the top AI models where I ask them to reverse engineer a very simple small crackme (https://www.crackmes.one/crackme/6ab4ce5195b976f8f1300b54) using Ghidrasql (https://github.com/0xeb/ghidrasql)
(As an aside: I think representing tools for AI as virtual SQL tables is much better than traditional MCP servers, and that this approach deserves a lot more attention. Props to Elias Bachaalany for thinking out of the box and putting it together).
The results of the benchmark are below. It's sorted by cost, but I added notes about each AI model for myself. The notes try to talk about intelligence, speed, and cost. Intelligence is a subjective measure which I assign to each model by reading its thinking tokens and watching its tool calls. You can definitely tell which models are more intelligent, even on this small benchmarks, by their tool use, false starts, and how easily they fall for the simple misdirection in the crackme.
(gist is more readable on mobile) https://gist.github.com/markoglasgow/8812c19b6fbffed30b2661b...
```
```The latest Deepseek-Flash model was the most impressive of the open models. Intelligent, fast, cheap. What more do you want? I think the Xiaomi MiMo - Flash model did well, but it might be a fluke, given how poorly the Xiaomi MiMo Pro model performed (it wandered off on a million side quests).
What's also interesting is how competitive Luna is to the lower end Chinese models. It's quite a bit more intelligent, burns a lot less tokens, is plenty fast and very cheap. After doing this experiment, I don't think it's a foregone conclusion that the American AI labs will be having the bottom of the market eaten away by the Chinese models. It seems they (at least OpenAI) can compete on the bottom end as well.
Finally, the benchmark's results reinforce a few things people have been saying about Sonnet and Terra, namely, they're not competitive for a range of tasks. For easier tasks, Haiku/Luna are plenty capable. For harder tasks, Opus and Sol are so much more intelligent, that they can get them done quicker and cheaper. Maybe there is a place for them in the "Opus designs and Sonnet implements" workflows, but in that case, why not "Opus designs and Deepseek implements?"
PS Code harness used was Claude Code. $20 in openrouter credits was used to access the models. Kimi K3 and Deepseek were also accessed directly via the API and then compared to Openrouter. Kimi K3 specifically was much faster on Openrouter, and the difference in output tokens to get the same results for Deepseek/Kimi makes me think the Openrouter providers are hosting significantly quantized versions of the model. Goes to show that Moonshot.ai's acceptance testing of providers is a useful thing, otherwise your model might look artificially bad when it's hosted as heavily quantized by providers who dont care about quality, just top-line cost and speed.
Thanks for the data-centric perspective. It reinforces my vague impression that DS 4.1 Flash eclipses almost everything out there, or at least ties it. We're really lucky to have that one.
GLM 5.3 and GLM 5.3 Flash are very different animals. The full GLM 5.3 model is what HF used to perform forensics on the OpenAI hack.
Nothing particular special about 5.3 Flash -- you might as well run DS 4.1 Flash at this point, as it's better in every way. But there is as yet no all-around replacement for the full 5.3 model.
For the past few days I've been trying to use rea to reverse engineer my Samsung Galaxy Buds 4 Pro to get seamless functionality working outside of the Samsung ecosystem with no luck (the buds 4 pro require Samsung devices + a Samsung account for seamless to work, I only have a Galaxy phone + my macbook). I think we're still far away from having something that works that well.
I’ve got a Samsung frame used for two things: 1) showing hdmi 1, and 2) showing art when idle.
I guess I’m going to have to just write replacement firmware, aren’t I?
I've just removed my 50€/year Frame subscription. Samsung, if you're reading this, you know why.
The art was good, and I liked having it. I was disappointed that it was subscription-based. From now on the TV will be disconnected from the power supply, until I want to occasionally watch Netflix.
@brookst, let me know if you play with the firmware ;)
Disconnect it from the network and hook up a streaming device that is relatively trustable (e.g. Apple TV or an open source alternative).
With that much criminal energy behind it, you might even want to remove the wifi module or ground the antenna at this point.
I was about to post "this is overkill — just don't connect it to your access point" but then realized that my neighbor has an xfinity router that advertises the public xfinity subscriber SSID. And it could be using an unadvertised SSID for which they've done a deal with the US carrier cartel members.
If this data is worth enough, they could be using IOT 4G service.
We to date have had no proof of this happening. The best I found was someone on a Samsung forum years ago claiming their TV auto-connected to a public WiFi without proof.
Not saying it isn’t happening, nor that it won’t ever happen.
Anyway - Faraday living room?
I heard you can buy really expensive paint that you can use on your walls, ceiling and floor to get this effect, that you then can paint over whatever color you actually want.
So far the only benefit other than shielding you from electrosmog was to stop having to compete with your neighbors in an apartment complex for wi-fi bands.
Thank you for "electrosmog," brill.
We have proof they have no moral qualms or other guardrails, and they have incentive. We also have a decent idea how much it costs to connect to ambient WiFi or cell/5gnetworks. It’s a matter of time, which may or may not be already in the past.
I mean there is proof that this does happen, to my knowledge there's no proof with larger brands such as this. But also it's not like every device is tested for that sort of thing by some competent user safety guidelines organization or whatnot.
If you know of a TV that automatically connects to networks without the user's permission, even some tiny brand, please share. I mean that sincerely, I feel like I talk about this every other month with someone.
It's been well known for the last 5-10 years that Samsung has degraded into one of the worst consumer device manufacturers, whether it's all this tracking, or forcing you to watch ads on the home screen of your expensive tv etc.
No idea why you'd even consider anything Samsung related.
Load the art from a flash stick and never connect it to the internet?
don't let it connect to the internet
What I would do if I were manufacturer hellbent on spying would be to search for devices of my own brand nearby to pass data using their internet access, if no access found then extend search - basically p2p/mesh network to pass data.
I'm sorely tempted to go down that road, I have a few frames. They've never been connected to the Internet, but the software on them is trash - literally the only thing I ever want it to do is display art (in standby) or display the Apple TV connected to HDMI.
This looks very bad on OpenAI.
What is next? Power and water company suspending your account if your home and car are not streaming enough telemetry.
I am glad that open models are closing on frontier.
Claude is absurdly sensitive to anything that touches cyber, and threatens bans if it gets a whiff of a pentest going on. it wouldnt surprise me if openai had a similar approach.
Yesterday I joked that claude gave me a cyber stop for asking how to make the anime girl video for an exploit, but it was a thing that happened. Meanwhile im trying to convince people around me that having grok nudify people isnt "fine" just because grok says it is. Its wild where the lines a drawn.
Claude is so absurdly bad about false triggers for security. It kept triggering when I asked it questions about how to plant some tree saplings I got because somehow that was a security risk.
Anthropic is a joke of a company.
Would you mind copy+pasting the text that you fed it that led to that refusal? That's so bizarre. It would be really interesting to try and guess at what exactly in the message set it off. Over-indexed on biology refusals, perhaps?
It doesn't matter, it's not a bug it's a feature. You don't have any power in this. Accept the thinking they give you.
That alone should disqualify it by itself.
I've run into both security and bio-refusals, it doesn't take much.
I'm in the new CVP, and even Mythos gave me a cyber stop just for creating an MCP server that can remotely connect to my Steam Frame to run commands. It must've thought I was trying to create a centralized malware or something.
Not even sure why Mythos even still exists when it's identical to Fable in every way, including refusing to do stuff that looks like it could ever be repurposed into unapproved use cases.
Wasn't the whole point of Fable that it's Mythos but with all the cybersecurity stuff lobotomized out of it?
The whole point of Fable was that it's Mythos but with extra guardrails, yeah. But now that Project Glasswing has been folded into the CVP, Mythos seems to have the exact same guardrails now
We're all naked under our clothes, I don't see the problem. One of the funniest shock-bits I've ever seen was when Jon Stewart's book on American government and history included full-frontal (Photoshopped) nudes of SCOTUS, but I guess he couldn't get away with that during the current era of Puritanical panic.
It's just an adult human body, Michael, what could it cost? One('s) dignity?
Tastelessness aside, this seems perfectly rational to me. Unlike reverse engineering for the purpose of developing security exploits, "nudification" doesn't meaningfully expand the capabilities of malicious actors with access to free online porn and Photoshop.
Actually violating one person is fine, but doing anything associated with a specific industry that has applications for harm and help is not?
That's like saying it's fine to beat someone up and take their lunch, but it's not fine to learn how locks work.
It's fine to imagine what your lunch looks like, even if that makes you feel that your dietary privacy has been violated.
You don't need Grok to imagine anything.
Well, maybe _you_ do.
People really out here directly comparing women to food, unbelievable.
Siri, what’s the name of this kind of bad faith argument?
Stating literally exactly what is being done is a bad faith argument now?
Today is Sausage Saturday, not Taco Tuesday. Some people like their links and eggs, and... okay, I don't know how to double entendre this next part, but suffice it to say that it's bad faith to assume that everything related to the depiction of the natural human body is about degrading women.
This thread is literally about Grok publicly nudifying women, and people are out here saying it's comparable to seeing somebody's lunch...I know HN is a boys' club and all but this is pretty bad even by normal HN standards.
No one else mentioned women. You're the one who assumed nudification was only of women and only of unwilling subjects. I've seen people use it on pictures of themselves for... enhancement and personal gratification. I've seen men and women use it to make spicy images of adult men. And if we're talking specifically about autonomy and control in depictions of a woman's body, I've seen some women complain about the overzealous guardrails of other image generators, where something as innocent as a touch-up of a photo of their own fully-clothed body was flagged as unsafe.
This issue isn't black and white, and you're casting unearned aspersions. We should have this conversation, in actual good faith.
> This thread is literally about Grok publicly nudifying women
1. It’s not
2. An analogy is not the same thing as saying women are like x
Remember those “A is to B as C is to D” SAT questions? Did you read them and think they were telling you that A = C?
Yes. You’re 2 for 2 on bad faith now.
That's one of the weirdest takes on here in a while.
I can develop security exploits myself just fine without the use of AI. Many people don't have the capability to use Photoshop and free online porn to deepfake someone else they might or might not personally know into a realistic video...
> I can develop security exploits myself just fine without the use of AI.
Are you seriously claiming that the untrained masses can start developing exploits on their devices?
Honestly as someone with faily little experience in pentesting or photoshop but who has dabbled in both back in highschool. I think they would both take a similar amount of practice and skill to develop those abilities. They are complete opposites so i suspect the kind of person who is naturally good at photoshop to be bad at pentesting and vis versa. But if your going to dedicate a few hours of every day to learning a skill i dont think it matters which one you choose, a bit of time, practice, and natural interest and you will be able to do the kind of work that people ask these llms to do.
The major difference being that it usually takes longer to study code because projects can be massive but at the same time the llms are looking for everything and anything while a real attacker is usually looking for specific vulnerabilities in common libraries and such so i wouldnt exactly call the amateur hacker on par with an llm but i would say they could do a similar amount of damage without llm assistance. And photoshop is basically the same. Spend a few hours every day dedicated to one thing and you will learn how to do it.
Seriously this. If my high school self could figure it out an adult with will can too. It really doesn't take that long.
Bad on OpenAI? The account got suspended.
This reflects horribly bad on Samsung!
The headline is misleading, but the "article" is only five screenshots of Twitter posts. Someone used AI to decrypt the Samsung TV's firmware and found always on listening, classification, lots of privacy nightmares. Then their (the hacker's, not Samsung's) OpenAI got suspended for "Cyber Abuse".
Right, but still: OpenAI provided a service and it's up to them to determine acceptable use. Samsung sells a $3000 (or actually $2999,95) TV and you get big brother watching you.
Surely acceptable use is not exposing crooked corporations that are using spyware to listen to you and your children.
We don't really have any idea what was in his sessions or why he was suspended. It might have been a false positive in their automated system, or maybe he ranted at the model about how he was going to "destroy" Samsung with his findings and the automated systems took that literally. There are tons of examples around of people using models for reverse engineering, so we know it's unlikely that alone was the reason.
They don't know that. It's the hypocracy of not using their service to infringe on someone elses copyright. The only way Compaq could legally have a PC BIOS is by having one team reverse engineer the original and describe what it does and another team reimplement it.
Yes, it's completely hypocritical because of how LLMs are built. That doesn't change the fact that if you're offering a service online, you'd try to prevent abuse in order not to be held liable.
You can do the same with LLM. Have one session document something, and other session write up an implementation, with nothing but docs shared in between.
I agree with you, but if OpenAI wasn't suspending users for exposing cyber-spying that these consumer companies like Samsung are doing, more and more people would expose such issues.
With Kimi K3.1 Pro, today WAS the day they actually caught up.
I’ve been saying this for the past few months - once the inflection point happens (such as today), it’s only a matter of 2 years when American closed models won’t be able to catch up with Chinese open models
Iirc They specifically trained them to not be useful in cyber stuff. But the point still holds
The Chinese models?
I have been wondering if that would be a benefit of using say GLM5.3 on HF if only to get fewer cyber stop flags.
There is more written here: https://www.kimi.ai/blog/kimi-k3-1-pro
They claim that the default datasets contain so much cyber stuff, so that their models became quite good at it.
They filtered the data before training to not contain this. So it's not that they train the model to not do it. They rather not have it in the Corpus at all. In theory
Even if there were stop flags, you simply get one of the ABLITERATED models that have all the guards NOP’d out
… IF chinese models stay open.
Chinese models don't need to stay open. The open weight ones just need to have nearly the same capabilities as the models sold by US companies. When that's the case, no one will have a reason to continue paying anything to any US company, thus destroying their business model and business case.
Idk about the destroying their business model part. Running your models on your own is akin to running a media server, which most people seem to be fine paying $20/m for someone else to do.
Well, maybe if your own media server only showed videos in 1fps compared to hosted ones. You’re not comparing apples to apples here. You might argue that local inference speeds are acceptable, but that doesn’t make them comparably equivalent.
What? Local inference is slow so people will want to self-host? I don't understand your argument.
AI companies can’t sustain this bleeding of runway. Eventually they’re all going to have to significantly bump up pricing. I guarantee personal accounts will be between double and triple your current internet and phone plan combined
That is not going to convince people to self-host models. The AI companies effectively have infinite money. Even if they did somehow run out, the US government would bail them out just like they did the car manufacturers.
People have been saying this for three years. When will it happen?
In fact they can be clearly worse, so long as they are same ballpark for many use cases.
I.e. I would pay 15-20% more for comparable work from an open model I control,rather than use anthro et al.
And it seems we've gotten to the point that frontier models benefits are marginal/nominal. Whereas, not long ago Claude was materially ahead and could do things the other models simply couldn't.
... IF the world doesn't end tomorrow.
Yes, of course, IF a lot of things. But if we go by what the official positions of the government is, and where the ecosystem is today, then the models stay open, as they are. And today, the US models stay closed, so lets not assume "... IF they stay closed" as nothing is pointing to this changing, just like China seems to point towards staying with open models.
Did you mean Mimo v2.6 Pro? Because Kimi K3.1 Pro is proprietary, and not open.
Also leading the frontier is much much harder than catching up to frontier.
Please use full open source Linux distros instead. Then you could update with apt, dnf, pacman etc.
Source: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50193579
This is the same company that makes "knox"... yes this will be funny.
Maybe I'm just old fashioned or out of touch, but why is it such a barrier for people to treat their smart TV as a dumb display? Hook up a computer via HDMI and never connect the TV to wifi.
I understand that the tech in these things is a horrorshow, But so is the tech in every other smart device that normal ("I don't care how it works, just that it works" types) people allow into their homes every day - and these are the people who tech is built for, not "us". Of all the tech to raise red flags about, this seems the easiest to mitigate.
And to be completely fair, I haven't purchased a new TV (Projector yes, TV no) since I bought my plasma in 2014. That 2014 TV has smart features as well but has just never been hooked up to the internet. Maybe the new rigs can't be used until connected to a network but I wouldn't know. Enlighten me if this is the case.
One way that you probably are behind on the goings on in the TV market are that there are whole TV brands that require you to login just to use the television at all, like Roku.
These are usually the cheap models, the kind that are heavily subsidized by spyware, but the fact that this exists at all is seriously not cool.
I imagine that you can login to those televisions once and then take them offline, though I haven’t tried personally.
The other thing I would say is that here we are asking customers to basically buy duplicate products and that second product might still engage in spyware.
E.g., I’ve bought a $500 TV that comes with Roku or whatever. It already runs all my streaming apps. So the strategy now is to turn off internet on that TV and now I have to buy a streaming box and hope that it’s less intrusive. If we decide maybe Apple is the one with the least intrusive ads and tracking, that’s now $300, almost doubling the cost of the TV.
And if we buy some other streaming box like Roku or Amazon well guess what they have all the same sorts of telemetry and ads going on.
To fully remove the national spy network from your life you would have to get rid of all other devices that will collect the same data or do already. Smartphones, smartwatches, home security systems, Wifi, any computer or device you did not build yourself, TVs, any other "smart" device, anything that has electricty going to it, any car since OnStar in the 1990s, all delivery trucks and self driving cars, your neighbors security system, devices that broadcast IDs, even bluetooth devices... So many examples..
The amount of devices in the national spy network which is passed off as just advertisement data is really providing full spectrum live video and audio to third parties that can and do share it for any reason that benefits them.
You also have to create an account to use an Osmo action cam. I almost sent the damn thing back upon finding out, but as it turns out, you can make a fake mail, fake account, and after having connected once you can treat it as if it never happened.
Still infuriating.
>Hook up a computer via HDMI and never connect the TV to wifi.
Having just gone through this...it's a lot harder than you think.
Current gen TVs have specs that garden variety connect a computer can't supply over HDMI. You need HDMI 2.1 with FRL to hit it. So you climb onto google, discover yes there are minipc that can do that...except only the new ones...the "AI" ones that cost you an arm and a leg. Also they need fast DDR5 memory which is great fun right now. And the more affordable ones are AMD so no quicksync.
So you think lets maybe do a USBC dongle to an existing device, only to discover that they require different firmware (!) on the dongle depending on whether you're using a mac or a windows PC [0]. And then you realize you actually need a cable capable of 48gbps and none of the ones lying around are labelled so you have to buy a new one just in case. And after you've done all that you still don't know why its connecting at 120hz not 144hz per TV specs. And then the whole media encoding circus starts...
I can 100% understand why people just type in wifi password and call it a day. The average consumer is not up for flashing firmware onto dongles to watch their big brother series.
[0] https://kb.cablematters.com/index.php?View=entry&EntryID=147
No streaming app is giving you a video feed with 48Gbps of data (more like 5-15 Mbps), and no one produces 120 or 144Hz video (most movies/TV are still 24Hz aren't they?), so there's no point in sending that kind of signal to a TV (you'll just have a crisp, high refresh signal of the low refresh blurry compression artifacts), but even ignoring that, cheap n100 minipcs can do 4k60 or 1k240 just fine (I use a minipc as my desktop with a 4k240 OLED).
>most movies/TV are still 24Hz aren't they?
They are and that's part of the reason why it matters.
144/24 = 6
120/24 = 5
60/24 = 2.5
TVs compensate by showing you every 2nd image longer causing a slight but noticeable judder effect. Panning shots don't look smooth etc. Much like font kerning once you see it you can't unsee it.
Plus ofc other uses like gaming. And frankly I also didn't want to set up a home theater with half the tech modern, the other half not. A bit like you want your PC screen and GPU to be paired well and not a 1080p screen with a 5090...
My minipc has no issue outputting at 24 or 23.976 or 30 or 29.97 or 59.94 Hz either. And again that big brother series on the smart TV app is going to be garbage quality anyway. It's like setting up a 4k240 OLED and 5090 to run an N64 emulator to play games with a 20 FPS limit and prerendered backgrounds with no texture replacers or anything.
And for "other uses like gaming" you are using an external computer over HDMI, not smart TV apps.
better yet,in the age of AI why not do more?
Ive been motivated recently to start making my appliances mine by using Ai to reverse engineer and replace their firmware. So long as the appliance has been slow to update its security channels, the recent eMudrha certificate leak was the perfect opportunity to place yourself in the middle of the relationship between device and vendor. Its allowed me to make some trivial updates to my television's firmware and start to have AI build me firmware that better serves my purposes. Hoping to lobotomize it and replace everything with a simple linux system that executes a startup script to launch a Jellyfin client.
I bought it and its mine, this is the freedom we were originally robbed of.
It's not hard; but often the TV will nag and nag until it gets a wifi connection.
And with how hard these manufacturers are trying, I wouldn't be at all surprised if they start including some alternate data connection for metadata/DRM/whatever. (ie, not the primary streaming data connection)
You are unlike most people. Most people just want to come home and watch TV. Historically it used to be cable, now it's YouTube or similar. What do you think is the quickest way to watch YouTube?
> What do you think is the quickest way to watch YouTube?
Shout "six seven" and look over the shoulder of the twelve-year-old who magically appears?
Definitely not with a TV remote vs a keyboard/mouse.
This is what I do. I find navigating with a remote control to be infuriating, especially when you need to search for something. With an old computer and wireless mouse and keyboard, it's so much better. Some minor configuration of Firefox's homepage and it's a fine start page for watching TV, with all your stuff right there. Plus you can have extensions that save hours of your life over time. The only downside is the remote becomes the literal keyboard and mouse which might be cumbersome for some, but I don't even think about it anymore. I've been using the same 50" for ten years.
Its all about UX, I recently got sick of my LG and switch to Apple TV and made LG a dumb TV with HDMI, and surprisingly UX ia significantly worse. Apple being Apple and force their shit weird UX. My kids can’t figure it out, they used to use LG TV by themselves to open what they want to open.
Even I fucking hate it because Apple UX. is just bunch of weird behaviors popping out from every action. Apple UX rant aside, similarly many solutions has tons of UX problems, connecting a PC to TV unfortunately leads to even more problems.
All of these shit supposed to work but in practice way too many edge cases, and random issues.
Funny I am also using a Plasma from around that time (Samsung one but hopefully too dumb to spy). I guess the problem is that they'll keep turning the screws, in the same way it gets harder and harder to use Windows and Office without an account and internet connection.
As a result I'm not upgrading my TV anytime soon, and when I do, I hope to find a dumb one.
Just a reminder. You can buy a kiosk TV from major TV manufacturers. You just have to look a little. Kiosk TVs are intended for lobby signage or conference rooms. You pay a little more but the garbage UI and always on piece is gone. You get 4 HDMI with them too (from what I've used).
An interesting question is whether LLMs are going to make HDTVs more or less expensive.
Just don't buy any tech home appliance that was made after 2022.
I mean it may work for you, but the bathtub curve means that someone isn't going to have a chair when the music stops.
so is the hardware mic-off button on Samsung TV any good?
If we read the tweet - the TV then connects to whatever device it can like a home theater, other speakers and uses its microphone if it has one
Man, it would really be interesting if they were caught using the speakers themselves as microphones.
Without a reddit account
https://web.archive.org/web/20261024082057if_/https://www.re...
The tile references on-board ai. “On-board ai” here is automatic content recognition. Imagine my disappointment
AI is simply an if/else statement in disguise, you didn’t know that?
Computer vision and categorization is ai. It isn't just generative AI.
There’s a meaningful difference between ML algorithms and the Grail that is (general) AI. Many of us spent years arguing that words matter and now with the VC backed hype train just about everything is AI, under penalty of stock market collapse
Because just about everything is AI. AI in itself is a rather useless term, and that was years ago.
The differences are not really that great most of the time. Quite often one type of logic in one type of ML network can be easily simulated in something like a generic transformer network and vice versa. Efficiency is typically the biggest constraint.
way to miss the point.
No libre agents and LLM's?
The AI in the TV was listening for dogs barking and babys crying, a gross invasion of privacy. Possibly this could have been for ad targeting purposes.
With projects like REA, it's going to get harder and harder for companies to get away with things like this.
I'd love to see the major social media apps reverse engineered and analyzed in this way. I can only imagine the dodgy practices that'll be found if this happens.
Jaded part of me thinks companies are going frontier-model-vibe-code their security into security chips everywhere, encrypted firmware everywhere, locked down APIs everywhere and it’s going to take away the fun out of it.
> With projects like REA, it's going to get harder and harder for companies to get away with things like this.
Nope, don't worry, if you clicked on the linked you'd see OpenAI has already banned this person's account. Chinese models you say? See today's new Kimi release which intentionally had all cyber-related data removed from its training data. The window is already rapidly closing and will soon be completely closed.
Won't be too much longer after that where modifying LLM weights to ignore safety rules is considered a felony.
so glad i bought a dumb tv.
i remember going store to store in search of one.
gg me, that was a smart move.
I haven’t been able to sleep since I found out that Samsung knows my dog barks.
As far as I can tell, there is no write up. This is a reddit post with screenshots of a Twitter/X post by @log4j. Even the Twitter post doesn’t seem informative, but Reddit isn’t a source for the information by any means.
The original link was on HN two days ago with no traction.
https://twitter.com/log4j/status/2113014142600953868
So a bit of background I spent the last 17 years going Smart TV app development.
Not a lot here is any sort of surprise to anyone in the industry.
Always on audio is common on a whole swath of devices - any that want to do Alexa style voice prompts need it. ACR is table stakes for modern TVs reselling viewer data has driven down TV prices to the point where there is no going back.
The policy file here is how you build Tizen apps. It’s a list of specific features your app needs access to and certain levels of access (controlling the TV For example) require different levels of contractual relationships with Samsung.
Everything Samsung collects should be covered in their, very dense, TOS.
I spent a couple years working at the platform (AndroidTV + Google Assistant) level on smart TVs.
> any that want to do Alexa style voice prompts need it
Not technically true. More modern smart TVs (~post-2021) put speech recognition models for the hotword only onto the DSP, and then have the DSP wake up the CPU for further auditory processing when it detects a hotword or remote button press. There are major power-efficiency benefits to this, because the DSP uses a fraction of a watt and can easily keep running while the TV is sleeping, while the CPU, Internet, and rest of the circuitry is a major power hog. Your smart TV or streaming dongle would basically never sleep if it were forever running the audio capture.
For that matter, it's pretty rare for the device to actually run the speech recognition models on-device. Smart TV manufacturers are very sensitive to BOM costs, which means that their hardware is only powerful enough to run machine-learning models at the extreme high end of their product range. Most of the time the full audio gets streamed back to the Internet and the speech recognition & voice assistant gets run in the cloud, with commands streamed back to the TV.
I won't say that it never has always-on audio listening; a significant number of devices I tested did. But I'll say this comes because they're poorly implemented. The DSP hotwording approach requires coordination between hardware and software developers, oftentimes across companies, and it's more complex to implement and a lot of executives don't care about the marginal consumer benefit it gives. Many smart TVs just guzzle power when they're off instead.
Yeah I don’t disagree, but should clarify that I’m just referring to the security policy that provides access to the ambient mic. How the app/platform handles that audio is a different path that I’m not entirely familiar with.
N you please answer one thing for my peace of mind?
If I use a TV like the ones you’ve worked on, and never ever connect it to any WiFi network since the day I bought it, is there any way they still call home and pass their payload? Like searching for and connecting to an open WiFi network, some kind of relay through another device over Bluetooth or any other way I haven’t thought of yet?
> ACR is table stakes for modern TVs reselling viewer data has driven down TV prices to the point where there is no going back
Really? There’s no “spyware free” marketing angle? Even Amazon has always sold a Kindle variant with no ads for $20 more.
Not really, that said it’s trivial to disable, you can opt out either via their settings or just by not connecting the TV to the internet.
I will say that how “completely” disabling ACR via settings works is not terribly clear and there are a few lawsuits questioning wether “opting out” actually works as presented.
Plus you can bet there will be a never-ending stream of "oops, a bug meant that toggle hasn't worked in 7 years, our bad. Have a free year of credit monitoring, on us!" announcements. Some might even be real accidents!
Except it's not covered in their TOS
Oh no, how will Samsung survive this, they will have to send $5 to few thousands of people for the damages if they decide to start a class action lawsuit and if a judge/jury decides it was really causing damages... as a reminder Samsung Electronics made almost 250 B-B-B-B-illion dollars in revenues just last year.
AFAIK the penalty in the EU is up to 4% of global revenue.
Maybe not the same exploit but I found another guy who was also able to debloat his TV: https://github.com/jss8649/quiet-tizen
These posts are engagement farming, they should be banned in HN, it’s like sending a marketing buzzword email to a technical engineer, useless.
What are you talking about? I have a samsung frame that I'm in the middle of rooting because of this excellent information.
A little bit of traction https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50193579
I always advise people to never, ever use Reddit as a reference for anything.
Why and what reference do you rec instead? Even this site gets fake news that stays up for hours.
I think that's the point. If you have to go looking for a reference and don't easily find one, it's probably fake.
Books, and your grandma’s notes on making jam, I guess.
I would avoid and distrust most social forums, such as reddit, that have Pookas which are fond of rumpots, crackspots and how are you bix6? -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeEsx2QLJ40
Sure, ‘knee-jerk’ reddit is unreliable, but many upvotes over time with supporting comments can be a strong signal of truth
It’s unfortunately only a symbol of bot activity or popularity with the crowd in the subreddit.
What do you mean? I can post whatever I want on Reddit and I can make it have as many upvotes as I need. They basically make bot farms undetectable, by hiding histories and automatic username selection. Literally nothing should be considered truth with Reddit as its only source
> Literally nothing should be considered truth with Reddit as its only source
Don’t get me wrong: I completely agree that Reddit should not be the only source, and go further that nothing should be assumed to be true based on Reddit signals (such as upvotes and comments). This is why I carefully chose my words: these can be strong signals of truth.
I think it’s also worth parsing out that I don’t think this is valid across all subreddits.
Why? Their system is literally mined for its Q&A merit by search engines. If it was all very bad information, NYSE: RDDT would not exist.
Stock prices are based on earnings, not on factual accuracy of content.
In Reddits case the stock price is based on nobody noticing that most of the users fled. Now they have to AI translate Indian content into English (and vice-versa) to keep up the illusion that people still use it.
At some point this will drive away the remaining users and it will just be bots and Reddits machine translations of those bot posts. At that point AI companies will just be paying to train on machine translated versions of content they generated to begin with.
If that were true, all the AI companies would have negative stock prices. Promises of (best case) future earnings are part of stock prices.
Future earnings are earnings, in the future.
https://xxcancel.com/mike64_t/status/2114150399406202896
https://xxcancel.com/freddier/status/2114042326758867453
What a load of shit. Samsung TV always listening if you enable listening, why would they do this? /s
How dare they run a classifier locally on the TV, they should upload it uncut to Czechia like Amazon did with their ring cameras!
the point is the setting does nothing, now go back to your claude session
I don't think that was even asserted, much less proven. The mic usage is almost certainly for the built in voice assistant. The dog and baby detection is for publicly announced features: https://news.samsung.com/us/samsung-celebrates-debut-samsung...
When I was in college this sharp phd student told me that your phone, tv, and other devices talk to each other via radio frequency to build a profile on you. I've seen zero proof of this anywhere and I still think about why he told me that.
Is it still news that Samsung does this? Feels like I'm reading a similar story every few months.
Well, dog and baby owners are great targets for advertising, so this makes sense.
Until Samsung is sued out of existence