What I've never understood is the weird dichotomy of preventive and reactive governance in the minds of US citizens.
We're willing to spend god knows what shooting rounds that cost entire mortgages to save miltary lives and project a presence of power to deter acts of terror/war, but then are also totally fine having people way as much as 4 or 5 people, eating several days worth of sugar for breakfast, smoking tobacco, putting 3 cups of coffee in a can we drink 4 or five of in a day, do next to nothing to adress recidivism of all classes of criminal, drag our feet kicking and screaming in to a semblance of modernity in worker protections...
There actually has been a really big push against this in the US. I was shocked by the amount of smoking I saw on a recent trip through Northern Europe, whereas smoking in public is pretty rare to see in the US these days.
Now we just vape our nicotine directly, or smoke weed, depending on the state.
Much of the US doesn't think of it in terms of proactive vs reactive governance but instead in cultural/moral expectations of how you should "pull yourself up from your bootstraps" to be great. This view is often to the point many see removing the need to pull oneself up from their own bootstraps as removing the ability for them to better themselves (& wasting everyone else's money/freedom/whatever to do so). A soldier and an obese person are examples at polar opposites of that moral spectrum.
The policies just follow that. This comes up in all sorts of areas such as prison as punishment vs rehabilitation.
I think you're looking at an effect instead of a cause. The main reason for the desire for a small government is not some inherent and absolute obsession with smallness, but because of the belief that larger governments are incapable of effectively utilizing their power (for reasons beyond just incompetence), are prone to inevitable abuses, and so forth. And that belief itself is not simply ideological, but based on history through most of all time.
Even with rehab versus punishment - it's the same story. The view isn't that punishment is inherently superior, but simply that rehabilitation is more of an ideal than a reality, and that typical appeals to places like Norway - a relatively homogenous and extremely wealthy microstate - don't necessarily translate well to large diverse societies, especially ones where there are substantial chunks of society that adopt cultures that glorify criminality.
My views on this subject are far too detailed to want to get into here, but I am confused at your choice to call Norway a "microstate". It's certainly on the smaller side of countries, but there are over 5 million residents and 300,000km2 in size. It's just a normal country.
"Microstate" is a term generally reserved for tiny geographical locations that can't even support their own defense.
America is the wealthiest nation on Earth, but its people are mainly poor, and poor Americans are urged to hate themselves. To quote the American humorist Kin Hubbard, 'It ain’t no disgrace to be poor, but it might as well be.' It is in fact a crime for an American to be poor, even though America is a nation of poor. Every other nation has folk traditions of men who were poor but extremely wise and virtuous, and therefore more estimable than anyone with power and gold. No such tales are told by the American poor. They mock themselves and glorify their betters. The meanest eating or drinking establishment, owned by a man who is himself poor, is very likely to have a sign on its wall asking this cruel question: 'if you’re so smart, why ain’t you rich?' There will also be an American flag no larger than a child’s hand – glued to a lollipop stick and flying from the cash register.
Americans, like human beings everywhere, believe many things that are obviously untrue. Their most destructive untruth is that it is very easy for any American to make money. They will not acknowledge how in fact hard money is to come by, and, therefore, those who have no money blame and blame and blame themselves. This inward blame has been a treasure for the rich and powerful, who have had to do less for their poor, publicly and privately, than any other ruling class since, say Napoleonic times. Many novelties have come from America. The most startling of these, a thing without precedent, is a mass of undignified poor. They do not love one another because they do not love themselves.
America does a better job at assimilating immigrants than most of the rest of the world. It’s just a very hard problem, and the US does more of it than anyone.
I don't know why you got downvoted. If you don't believe this, read "Dying of Whiteness" by Jonathan Metzl. Something like 30% of this country will reject quality of life improvements for themselves if they see that it will also benefit people of other races who "don't deserve it".
The entire social structure of the south was (and mostly still is) based on wealthy whites convincing poor whites to accept the situation because blacks are even worse off.
Big assumption that the average citizen’s opinion has any effect on what the government spends money on. It’s pretty easy to campaign on not doing X and then proceed to do X once you’ve won the election.
Because people are unable to conceptualize the idea of government-funded voluntary preventative campaigns, despite these showing success in the past.
This may be partially due to the many all-or-nothing crusaders who would prefer to use force in their quest for full protection of the citizen. Many people overcorrect because they fear that even voluntary programs are steps in this direction. Trust is low.
We have a long and sordid history with extreme and failed prevention (prohibition, the Mann Act, war on drugs).
> What I've never understood is the weird dichotomy of preventive and reactive governance in the minds of US citizens.
When the underlying economic model of CONSUMPTION = GOOD is viewed as a religion or universal law of nature, it's actually not surprising that people are irrational about this.
In the US there's an extreme attitude of "I'm not paying for someone else...", and any sort of preventative care, like a heart score test, would fall into that category. This attitude is grounded on the personal responsibility mindset, that every person is responsible for taking care of themselves. So, for the 800K people that had heart attacks, the attitude in the US is largely, "They should've been proactive on their own, gotten the $100 test. Their heart attack is their own fault."
While I agree the US meddling in the Middle East has caused wars/terrorism, the general US military presence globally is a massive benefit for the entire world. Once the US starts pulling back more (as they seem to want to do) we'll see more and more regional chaos that grows into trade disruptions and wars. Regional tomfoolery like the South China Sea stuff will occur all over the world and will escalate into wars.
> we'll see more and more regional chaos that grows into trade disruptions and wars
Every accusation is a confession, as they say. How can you say this with a straight face given the current situation in Iran lol? They keep pulling the same shit and NPCs keep licking the boots, it's insane...
Imaging is great for detecting calcified plaque in your coronary arteries. But before you have calcified plaque, the above risk factors tell you about the buildup of soft plaque. And 4 out of 5 of them are modifiable through lifestyle, exercise, and medication.
- If you made a dietary change (e.g., more fiber and less saturated fat), the tests tell you whether it actually worked.
- Statins are dosed based on the LDL or ApoB reduction you need. The most powerful statins cut cholesterol by 50%, but at higher doses the risk of side effects does go up.
- Other medications like PCSK9 inhibitors and ezetimibe exist, and whether to use them depends on the other numbers. For example, PCSK9 inhibitors have a secondary benefit of lowering Lipoprotein(a), and statins and GLP-1s have a secondary benefit of lowering inflammation.
- If blood pressure, HbA1c, etc is high, then there's a slightly different set of diet advice and a very different set of medications. For example, lowering blood pressure through diet is mostly about reducing sodium and increasing potassium.
The argument made in the article seems inarguable, but I don't see how a coronary artery calcium score is going to prevent a heart attack. You gotta do statins, exercise, and eat right basically no matter what. FWIW I had a coronary artery calcium score ordered by my doctor at my last checkup. It was $120.
I assume they mean.. have the test and then act upon it with diet/exercise/medicine to prevent the heart attack
If you never had the test, maybe you don't know you are at risk and don't make any changes and then you get the heart attack
They'll use flawed research to claim diet and exercise don't work for obesity, then the general public uses that research and claims, "Diet doesn't work for fat people."
Soon, everyone is convinced every guy with a trivial amount of weight to lose needs to be on GLP-1s.
Ok but if they acknowledge it's an addiction, that's still a medical issue requiring treatment. Maybe that means going to food addiction anonymous meetings but if GLP-1 is like methadone for food, why not do it?
If you are in a place where you truly can't control your habits then of course GLP-1s are an amazing tool. However, if you don't adjust your life-style you will relapse when you get off, so the real solution is to adjust your life style. Also, there are benefits to exercise that aren't connected to losing weight. In my experience, 100% of the people I know on GLP-1 drugs are not exercising. I'm sure I'll get 1000 responses of people who do, but in my experience they don't. So you put yourself in a position where you're not addressing the actual problem, you are on a drug for life, and you aren't being healthy in other capacities. Are there times where these drugs make sense? Yes. Of course. Spare me the lecture. Everyone I know on these drugs are middle class people who absolutely could be healthy but don't want to put in any work.
Bodies are all different. Diet and exercise can work for one person and not another. But the type of person who wants to believe all fat people are slothful, all unemployed people are lazy, and so on, will invent in bad faith the straw man argument that we think diet and exercise do not work at all. They're not worth engaging with.
I'm interested in this intersection of technical problems where we already have the tech to solve it, but the bottlenecks are social/legal/financial incentive.
Recently there was an old lady in the family that had an appendicitis, an ambulance rejected her, and the next day it got worse, and at that point she was accepted, but it was a bit too late.
One hypothesis is that triaging is hard and there's a lot of demand so things only go in when it's bad enough (considering there was medical insurance, they aren't charging per patient, so there's no incentive to take on more patients). But if that were the case, then preventive measures would actually reduce the total burden on their system.
The more cynical hypothesis that I'm holidng is that that health system is maximizing for work, if there's 10 appendicitis per month, and they are all handled in time, that's maybe like 5 hours of billable hours per patient? But if the appendicitis becomes bad enough and there's a puncture, then you have infections, complications, the patients have to stay for weeks and often come back for checkups, we are looking at maybe 100 billable hours? So the financial incentive is there.
In that sense what I want to add is that the title would be completely wrong, the solution is not for the hospital to pay 100$ for prevention, but for prevention to be more accurately priced, we should be paying 50k, and maybe even 100k for prevention, because we value it more than emergency action.
In a broader economic sense, there's a lot of cases where there's a huge difference between the cost and the value, Shkreli got a lot of heat for surging up medicine prices, but I don't think it's immediately obvious that something should be valued in proportion to what it costs. Maybe if we price heart prevention at 100K, there would be more incentive for everyone involved to just get a fucking pill to those in need, imagine how many people would jump at that opportunity to make it happen, call centers, bureocrats, NOC support, legal teams, all dedicated to making sure a pill gets to the patient before a heart attack does.
Insurance was invented to pay for emergencies. Your home insurance doesn't pay to perform routine maintenance on your roof, but neither will it pay to repair "normal" wear and tear. Your home insurance pays when a tree falls on your roof.
Our healthcare system has co-evolved with insurance in a sort of partial free-market, partial heavily regulated environment. Arguably we get the worse parts of both: Kafka-esque beaurocratic mazes and shareholder value optimization for private firms.
There's a paradigm shift needed in how health insurance works: optimize for total cost of care.
Can the invisible hand do this when providers are offering mainly treatments with token preventative care visits thrown in?
What I've never understood is the weird dichotomy of preventive and reactive governance in the minds of US citizens.
We're willing to spend god knows what shooting rounds that cost entire mortgages to save miltary lives and project a presence of power to deter acts of terror/war, but then are also totally fine having people way as much as 4 or 5 people, eating several days worth of sugar for breakfast, smoking tobacco, putting 3 cups of coffee in a can we drink 4 or five of in a day, do next to nothing to adress recidivism of all classes of criminal, drag our feet kicking and screaming in to a semblance of modernity in worker protections...
> smoking tobacco
There actually has been a really big push against this in the US. I was shocked by the amount of smoking I saw on a recent trip through Northern Europe, whereas smoking in public is pretty rare to see in the US these days.
Now we just vape our nicotine directly, or smoke weed, depending on the state.
Much of the US doesn't think of it in terms of proactive vs reactive governance but instead in cultural/moral expectations of how you should "pull yourself up from your bootstraps" to be great. This view is often to the point many see removing the need to pull oneself up from their own bootstraps as removing the ability for them to better themselves (& wasting everyone else's money/freedom/whatever to do so). A soldier and an obese person are examples at polar opposites of that moral spectrum.
The policies just follow that. This comes up in all sorts of areas such as prison as punishment vs rehabilitation.
I think you're looking at an effect instead of a cause. The main reason for the desire for a small government is not some inherent and absolute obsession with smallness, but because of the belief that larger governments are incapable of effectively utilizing their power (for reasons beyond just incompetence), are prone to inevitable abuses, and so forth. And that belief itself is not simply ideological, but based on history through most of all time.
Even with rehab versus punishment - it's the same story. The view isn't that punishment is inherently superior, but simply that rehabilitation is more of an ideal than a reality, and that typical appeals to places like Norway - a relatively homogenous and extremely wealthy microstate - don't necessarily translate well to large diverse societies, especially ones where there are substantial chunks of society that adopt cultures that glorify criminality.
My views on this subject are far too detailed to want to get into here, but I am confused at your choice to call Norway a "microstate". It's certainly on the smaller side of countries, but there are over 5 million residents and 300,000km2 in size. It's just a normal country.
"Microstate" is a term generally reserved for tiny geographical locations that can't even support their own defense.
From Kurt Vonnegut in Slaughterhouse-Five:
Everything is America is about race
America does a better job at assimilating immigrants than most of the rest of the world. It’s just a very hard problem, and the US does more of it than anyone.
Not everyone in this country who isn't white has ancestry from an immigrant (or at least not a willing one).
I don't know why you got downvoted. If you don't believe this, read "Dying of Whiteness" by Jonathan Metzl. Something like 30% of this country will reject quality of life improvements for themselves if they see that it will also benefit people of other races who "don't deserve it".
The entire social structure of the south was (and mostly still is) based on wealthy whites convincing poor whites to accept the situation because blacks are even worse off.
Big assumption that the average citizen’s opinion has any effect on what the government spends money on. It’s pretty easy to campaign on not doing X and then proceed to do X once you’ve won the election.
Because people are unable to conceptualize the idea of government-funded voluntary preventative campaigns, despite these showing success in the past.
This may be partially due to the many all-or-nothing crusaders who would prefer to use force in their quest for full protection of the citizen. Many people overcorrect because they fear that even voluntary programs are steps in this direction. Trust is low.
We have a long and sordid history with extreme and failed prevention (prohibition, the Mann Act, war on drugs).
> What I've never understood is the weird dichotomy of preventive and reactive governance in the minds of US citizens.
When the underlying economic model of CONSUMPTION = GOOD is viewed as a religion or universal law of nature, it's actually not surprising that people are irrational about this.
In the US there's an extreme attitude of "I'm not paying for someone else...", and any sort of preventative care, like a heart score test, would fall into that category. This attitude is grounded on the personal responsibility mindset, that every person is responsible for taking care of themselves. So, for the 800K people that had heart attacks, the attitude in the US is largely, "They should've been proactive on their own, gotten the $100 test. Their heart attack is their own fault."
People being free to destroy their bodies with food has nothing to do with everything else you mentioned.
> and project a presence of power to deter acts of terror/war
uh? That's literally what causes terror and wars lmao
While I agree the US meddling in the Middle East has caused wars/terrorism, the general US military presence globally is a massive benefit for the entire world. Once the US starts pulling back more (as they seem to want to do) we'll see more and more regional chaos that grows into trade disruptions and wars. Regional tomfoolery like the South China Sea stuff will occur all over the world and will escalate into wars.
> we'll see more and more regional chaos that grows into trade disruptions and wars
Every accusation is a confession, as they say. How can you say this with a straight face given the current situation in Iran lol? They keep pulling the same shit and NPCs keep licking the boots, it's insane...
Coronary CT calcium scans are getting more popular. But before getting one, I'd do these simpler tests first:
- ApoB - about 20% of people with normal cholesterol results will have abnormal ApoB, and be at risk of heart disease.
- Lp(a) - the strongest hereditary risk factor for heart disease.
- hs-CRP - inflammation roughly doubles your risk of heart disease
- HbA1c - insulin resistance is a risk factor for just about everything.
- eGFR - estimates the volume of liquid your kidneys can filter, and is an input to the latest heart disease risk models (PREVENT).
These are simple blood tests. You can get them for <$200 through my company or others: https://empirical.health/product/comprehensive-health-panel
Imaging is great for detecting calcified plaque in your coronary arteries. But before you have calcified plaque, the above risk factors tell you about the buildup of soft plaque. And 4 out of 5 of them are modifiable through lifestyle, exercise, and medication.
But you know the result will be recommendations for diet, exercise and statins so why not skip the tests and just do those?
A few reasons:
- If you made a dietary change (e.g., more fiber and less saturated fat), the tests tell you whether it actually worked.
- Statins are dosed based on the LDL or ApoB reduction you need. The most powerful statins cut cholesterol by 50%, but at higher doses the risk of side effects does go up.
- Other medications like PCSK9 inhibitors and ezetimibe exist, and whether to use them depends on the other numbers. For example, PCSK9 inhibitors have a secondary benefit of lowering Lipoprotein(a), and statins and GLP-1s have a secondary benefit of lowering inflammation.
- If blood pressure, HbA1c, etc is high, then there's a slightly different set of diet advice and a very different set of medications. For example, lowering blood pressure through diet is mostly about reducing sodium and increasing potassium.
Because I’ll know how much I can slack off.
The argument made in the article seems inarguable, but I don't see how a coronary artery calcium score is going to prevent a heart attack. You gotta do statins, exercise, and eat right basically no matter what. FWIW I had a coronary artery calcium score ordered by my doctor at my last checkup. It was $120.
I assume they mean.. have the test and then act upon it with diet/exercise/medicine to prevent the heart attack If you never had the test, maybe you don't know you are at risk and don't make any changes and then you get the heart attack
Same for diet and exercise.
They'll use flawed research to claim diet and exercise don't work for obesity, then the general public uses that research and claims, "Diet doesn't work for fat people."
Soon, everyone is convinced every guy with a trivial amount of weight to lose needs to be on GLP-1s.
> They'll use flawed research to claim diet and exercise don't work for obesity
Who is "they"? Who is saying this?
I've never ever heard anyone say diet and exercise don't work. Is this something a real person has said to you in real life? Not on the internet?
I have known at least two people, who while not making the claim that it doesn't work, do make the claim that it doesn't work for them.
To me this is just subconscious denial/defending of their food addiction.
Ok but if they acknowledge it's an addiction, that's still a medical issue requiring treatment. Maybe that means going to food addiction anonymous meetings but if GLP-1 is like methadone for food, why not do it?
If you are in a place where you truly can't control your habits then of course GLP-1s are an amazing tool. However, if you don't adjust your life-style you will relapse when you get off, so the real solution is to adjust your life style. Also, there are benefits to exercise that aren't connected to losing weight. In my experience, 100% of the people I know on GLP-1 drugs are not exercising. I'm sure I'll get 1000 responses of people who do, but in my experience they don't. So you put yourself in a position where you're not addressing the actual problem, you are on a drug for life, and you aren't being healthy in other capacities. Are there times where these drugs make sense? Yes. Of course. Spare me the lecture. Everyone I know on these drugs are middle class people who absolutely could be healthy but don't want to put in any work.
I hear this all the time to the point where I don't even mention looking at a person's diet and exercise because I expect they'll be shot down
Bodies are all different. Diet and exercise can work for one person and not another. But the type of person who wants to believe all fat people are slothful, all unemployed people are lazy, and so on, will invent in bad faith the straw man argument that we think diet and exercise do not work at all. They're not worth engaging with.
We are getting very close to this with cheaper and cheaper glp-1 drugs. Soon they'll be free for any overweight American.
I have to wonder what the longer term consequences of modifying peoples essential biological drives chemically will turn out to be in the long run.
That isn't to say this might not be the best solution for many people but I still wonder.
I'm interested in this intersection of technical problems where we already have the tech to solve it, but the bottlenecks are social/legal/financial incentive.
Recently there was an old lady in the family that had an appendicitis, an ambulance rejected her, and the next day it got worse, and at that point she was accepted, but it was a bit too late.
One hypothesis is that triaging is hard and there's a lot of demand so things only go in when it's bad enough (considering there was medical insurance, they aren't charging per patient, so there's no incentive to take on more patients). But if that were the case, then preventive measures would actually reduce the total burden on their system.
The more cynical hypothesis that I'm holidng is that that health system is maximizing for work, if there's 10 appendicitis per month, and they are all handled in time, that's maybe like 5 hours of billable hours per patient? But if the appendicitis becomes bad enough and there's a puncture, then you have infections, complications, the patients have to stay for weeks and often come back for checkups, we are looking at maybe 100 billable hours? So the financial incentive is there.
In that sense what I want to add is that the title would be completely wrong, the solution is not for the hospital to pay 100$ for prevention, but for prevention to be more accurately priced, we should be paying 50k, and maybe even 100k for prevention, because we value it more than emergency action.
In a broader economic sense, there's a lot of cases where there's a huge difference between the cost and the value, Shkreli got a lot of heat for surging up medicine prices, but I don't think it's immediately obvious that something should be valued in proportion to what it costs. Maybe if we price heart prevention at 100K, there would be more incentive for everyone involved to just get a fucking pill to those in need, imagine how many people would jump at that opportunity to make it happen, call centers, bureocrats, NOC support, legal teams, all dedicated to making sure a pill gets to the patient before a heart attack does.
[delayed]
Insurance was invented to pay for emergencies. Your home insurance doesn't pay to perform routine maintenance on your roof, but neither will it pay to repair "normal" wear and tear. Your home insurance pays when a tree falls on your roof.
Our healthcare system has co-evolved with insurance in a sort of partial free-market, partial heavily regulated environment. Arguably we get the worse parts of both: Kafka-esque beaurocratic mazes and shareholder value optimization for private firms.
There's a paradigm shift needed in how health insurance works: optimize for total cost of care.
Can the invisible hand do this when providers are offering mainly treatments with token preventative care visits thrown in?