I think a lot of Anti Nuclear Power is based off old designs that weren't as safe and had radioactive byproduct I think newer reactor designs take a lot of bite out of that process. Additionally when you look at what is proposed to happen with Fusion reactors in Virginia in the next couple years it becomes a less popular position to be in opposition.
It was part emotional response to Chernobyl, part is was full on Russian propaganda infiltrating parliaments in Europe.
The leader of Germany that phased out nuclear and made Germany fully reliant on Russia then took a job... at Gazprom. The VP from the Greens responsible took a very high paying job lobbying for foreign Gas firms, too.
It has to be one of the most successful foreign influencing campaigns in history.
I oppose nuclear for a very simple reason: there is no way to deal with the long term waste. Not just the small amount of waste from the fuel, but the reactor components.
The waste will burden hundreds of generations for millenia and the reason? Our current consumption
Such greed and disregard for following generations
Third-parties are generally full of eccentrics (remember that the UK is still FPTP, even if they're a multi-party system). Eccentrics typically aren't the "very serious" types looking at tradeoffs.
The large portion of the environmentalist left are degrowthers who literally want people to just live with less, which means "less energy" is actually good. It will never be a politically viable position, but again, we're talking about a party that until recently has never come close to wielding power.
Why is war never a factor in the nuclear power debate? Like nuclear is great, until you have missiles dropping on your territory. You can ask Ukraine about that. Zaporizhia has been held hostage since the early days of the war. Should the Russians have a manic moment they can make a Chernobyl volume 2 with conventional explosives.
Nuclear is a great peacetime technology, Europe is no longer in peacetime.
The destruction of the Kakhovka Dam flooded over 500 square kilometres and carried a significant death toll, caused major damage to the surrounding area and impacted over a million people.
Besides maybe solar, there is always the potential for harm during war times. Heck, even with solar, cutting off electricity supply to a major urban area can tragically carry a death toll that goes beyond even the few severe power plant disasters we as a species have ever encountered.
Fission is not an outlier here and designing any power plant for resilience is a necessary step, whether in war or peacetimes, whether in a tectonically stable or seismically active area.
A nuclear strike on a larger fission reactor could create an awful result unlike any other power plant. There were some studies during the cold war (something about the effects in West Germanyin the early 1980s, IIRC).
Nuclear ICBMs generally make this a moot point. An advanced enemy can explode a "nuclear reactor" anywhere in your country at any time.
Regarding drones, most reactors are built relatively hardened. For example, they're protected against a 747 flying into it at full speed. So even a drone attack would take an advanced enemy, and they might as well drop a bomb on you.
There is a very very strong pro-nuclear contingent on HN and in tech in general, and most of the tech pro-nuclear support comes from viewing nuclear as environmentally positive compared to alternatives, so I'm not surprised at all to see this. It hits all the right "this is good" receptors, even if UK Greens are a tiny party. (I personally view nuclear as completely infeasible, economically, while also being environmentally friendly, so I've had few allies on any grounds when it comes to public debate on nuclear.)
The best time to build up nuclear power was 4 decades ago - when the supply of fossil fuel was obviously fraught, and things like solar and wind power were nonviable.
Whether it makes any sense to push for nuclear power now is unclear. Nuclear was quite expensive even back then - but decades of NIMBYism, "environmental" activism and overregulation have damaged the industrial capability and eroded supply chains to the point that getting a buildout going at scale and on a sane budget and a sensible timetable would be an uphill battle. At the same time, renewables aren't anywhere near as opposed, the economic outlook for solar, wind and grid storage is better than it ever was, and the situation is likely to improve even further.
We're familiar with the Green point of view, your niche parties are like NGOs in the US. I think the larger context might be the conversation about technology we've been having in the US since the atom bomb. Articles about nuclear power, GMO, AI, and other advances will trigger similar interest. The timeliness of this article isn't a factor, it's an interesting event and a chance to broach a few topics.
Pretty much, especially with their latest mess with “Zionism is racism” entryism, a leader who can’t lead, and a split between those interested in green subjects and rump Corbynites
There are three Green Parties in the UK. The SGP members have had a supply agreement with the ruling SNP in the Scottish Parliament for years. There was even talk of them being in coalition for a while.
They were, but the current popularity of the 2 main parties (in recent times) has led to this or a couple of right wing ones as a popular protest vote.
Between shameless scientific fraud from last century still affecting and harming nuclear policy to this day [0], and masses of idiots being easily influenced and swindled by foreign powers [1] (example specifically about the UK's case), I don't know why any such parties haven't been forcefully disbanded or put in the same category as terrorists, along with other organizations such as "Green"-"peace". They have at large done immeasurable damage to their countries and the world at large, and most of them started out explicitly as being anti-nuclear, that being their only mission for the longest time, only becoming relevant through the most disgusting fearmongering. Most importantly, they've achieved nothing but ensure the continued, worldwide permanent reliance on oil states and the terrorism that derived from it.
I'm happy they're doing this, and it's good and admirable to see people be able to change their minds on something they once believed so strongly, but this should have happened 30 years ago.
>People only "change their mind" when it becomes an existential crisis.
If only. There's people and parties (not in the UK) who would rather see the rest of the country suffer than admit they were wrong, so they feel compelled to die on that hill and take everyone with them, because defending their principle is more important.
Unlike fossil fuel power plants, NPPs don't depend on a steady supply of a high volume of costly consumables just to keep running. Reactor fuel loads last months to years, naturally buffering any price shocks or supply chain issues. And you can maintain an "energy security" stockpile of nuclear fuel that would add you even more years of runaway.
To have your nuclear power disrupted, you have to face an adversary that's both capable and willing to hit targets on your soil, and on top of that, is willing to target NPP infrastructure specifically.
A random rogue state lobbing mid-range drones over a strait wouldn't cut it. Neither would a war halfway around the world.
We're talking about Germany shuttering their nuclear power plants despite USA warning them repeatedly that Russia was going to weaponize the Nord Stream gas dependence against them. Which is ultimately exactly what happened.
if the germans want to shoot themselves in the foot they are allowed to do this, yes. what is the point of your comment? it's not even remotely relevant.
I was trying to point out that societies make and are free to make decisions that others don't like or that aren't great for them by some metric - and that there is nothing wrong with that. Why is that not relevant when it comes to energy?
so your point is that it's fine that germany ceeded energy independence and gave power to russia, because they're a country and countries have the 'right' to make bad decisions?
we have the right to criticise countries too right?
If Germans don't want energy independence - you can criticize that but that's how nation states work or is there some UN Charter violation in there, for example?
im still so confused what your point is. it's like talking about the consequences of someone's alcoholism, and someone chiming in "well they have a right to die of the booze if they want" like...ok???
Nuclear power replaced coal in Germany, not gas. A big dependence exists because people heat their homes with gas and lots of industry needs gas, nuclear doesn’t help with either.
That is not really the case. Germany certainly wanted cheap gas, but there was also the theory that integrating Russia economically will prevent conflicts. While ultimately a wrong decision, it was not entirely stupid.
But regarding gas, one has to understand that a tiny fraction (15%) of gas is used for electricity and most for heating. So nuclear power is completely irrelevant here.
I also would like people realize that many nuclear plants in Europe and elsewhere still depend on fuel from Russia. So energy dependence is a bit more complex.
It's a bit more complex, I think. When gas imports started from the USSR, nuclear power plants were still being built in Germany, for example. There were gas imports for a long time.
Which means new nuclear is about the worst thing we can spend our limited resources on since it won't be coming online until the 2040s, and then at a ruinosuly expensive price.
Meanwhile renewables and storage are reshaping our global energy system due to being the cheapest globally scalable energy source in human history.
We also need to keep in mind nuclear supply chains. After 21 sanction packages the EU still haven't sanctioned Russia's nuclear industry.
We're simply too deeply entangled across the entire supply chain: nuclear fuel, enrichment, reprocessing, technological partnerships, reactor maintenance, new construction and more.
TBF, Europe brought it on itself (Germany in particular, pretty much killing their nuclear and industry) by supporting the war against Russia: Cheap gas -> NAAAH! Putin bad! Zelenskiy good, let's blow up the Nordstream -> oh, US gas much expensive? No more "buy one get one"? Fucking idiots. Or maybe very well paid traitors.
And by “the war against Russia,” you meant when Russia violated its treaty and invaded a sovereign country on the EU’s doorstep? That war “against Russia?” What an interesting phrasing you’ve chosen.
And why did this war start? And how many military bases does Russia have, say, around Caribbean? What was Ukraine going to do with Crimea? People burned alive in Odessa? "Russia violated its treaty and invaded a sovereign country" - double standards at their best? USA/Israel being the number 1 terrorist/pedo coalition - nothing? Not even a strongly-worded letter? Fuck off already, the byproduct of brainwashing.
Or more probably, it's imputable to biology and the natural replacement of the "old guard" by adults who didn't grow up during nukes schizophrenia. Or in other words, I doubt that those folks reasoned themselves out of the irrational fear for nuclear energy that they did not reason themselves into.
I'm not sure it's irrational. It's perhaps oversensitive. There are dozens of nuclear power incidents rated at levels of 5+, affecting the wider region.
In the UK, Sellafield was a nightmare. Lots of less serious slip ups and malfunctions punctuated by a few critical incidents, between 1954 and 2003. You might understand why yesterday's Green Party might think it an issue worth pursuing.
I believe more recently there was an expose about some other politicians at that time having links to Russia, although don’t have them to hand right now.
They were never were in control of the government, so it seems a conspiracy theory that the greens somehow did "a lot of damage". I think a conspiracy needed by people who can not deal with the fact that nuclear is simply not economical, and therefor fails on the market.
There are aspects of many political parties I agree with, but to me, being against Nuclear Power is the largest short sighted items this and a couple of other parties are/were against.
If many countries took the same road as France, the world would be in a much better place. Imagine the energy advances that could have happened if nuclear was supported for the past 50 years.
Or renewables. I remind you that nuclear power is completely economically unviable today because it is the single most expensive way to generate power. Even with Trump rolling back safety regulations, it's still too expensive when solar panels are 10 cents per watt, nuclear is 50, and the amount of backup storage to offset the unreliability does not bridge that gap.
Gas is dispatchable, nuclear is not. It’s enormously expensive, and that expense is locked in whether you need the power or not.
We’re already in a situation where we have more power than we need during certain hours of the day in some states/countries, and that’s not even counting the massive, accelerating buildout that will happen between now and the years before new nuclear is built… even it was started today.
Also France is around 7c (euro) per kwh from nuclear generation. If the whole west was all in on nuclear for last 50 years it would have resulted in lower per kwh costs.
What would solar's cost per kWh be? GP means the cost of the asset per peak generation power. 0.1/W seems about right, to an order of magnitude at least.
and i remind you that this framing is completely misleading outside the world of simulations and calculations.
Nuclear doesn't need to be the only source of electricity generation. In fact, it can be the base on top of which a serious country expands electricity generation with renewable energy.
I will also remind you that there is not a single industrialised economy anywhere on earth that has successfully supplied new electricity growth with only renewable energy. Not one.
> I will also remind you that there is not a single industrialised economy anywhere on earth that has successfully supplied new electricity growth with only renewable energy. Not one.
Nuclear fans across the internet seems to have adopted this talking point recently and none of them have noticed it doesn't make any sense.
Wow when nuclear power was the answer why we’re against it, but now nuclear power is too expensive compared with renewables plus solar they are for it.
How about some useful policies like removing planning constraints for grid expansion and solar farms and compulsory wind farms on golf courses owned by foreign billionaires
Nuclear power is not too expensive, it's expense is artificial. Also - renewables can't provide base load energy to replace mos of carbon stuff. You need a powerful base load to support most renewables in the mix
It would be less expensive if every 20 years some idiots wouldn't blow one of them up and render a sizable swath of land uninhabitable by doing something regarded. The cost is in making sure they don't and unfortunately it's probably here to stay.
Yep, and renewables + batteries are only getting cheaper. Nuclear takes a long time to build. A new plant planned today will be obsolete before construction ends.
One of the useful policies mentioned in the article is:
> Last year, Adrian Ramsay, then a Green co-leader, criticised government support for Sizewell C. “The money being spent on this nuclear gamble would be far better spent on insulating and retrofitting millions of homes, bringing down energy bills and keeping people warmer and more comfortable,” he said.
Classic negawatt approach, to use Amory Lovins' term.
Seems, though, like most people would rather build impressive infrastructure than improve what's already there. Grid expansion and new energy production development have far more cachet than paying a bunch of people with white vans to go around fixing up houses.
You think.. I heard some antinuclear guys opposing fusion because the vessel for fusion reactor would get radioactive, and that is "nuclear waste" (of course, it's not the dangerous, long-term kind).
I've commented before on this, but I don't think it ever becomes financially viable.
Assuming all the physics are completely solved tomorrow;
Private capital can easily get better returns, not to mention sooner returns, doing pretty much anything else.
Public capital requires a very long-term govt spend spanning multiple governments. China could do it, but hard to see a western govt doing it. Plus it would add a decade to the schedule and costs would spiral upwards.
All of which is a huge bet against improvements in grid-level storage.
It was ultimately a conservative government that was responsible for exiting nuclear in Germany. But also nobody wants nuclear back, not even the industry - as it is too expensive.
I find it fairly amusing that "green" parties were ever opposed to nuclear power. It was clearly lobbying by fossil fuel energy interests. If we're gonna generate electricity at night without burning coal, oil or gas, we need nuclear. Storing solar and wind overnight is an even more absurd proposition than nuclear power plants. Burning more fossil fuels is even more absurd than nuclear power plants.
This is a bit too cynical. It's impossible to understand the history green parties' opposition to nuclear energy without the context of their opposition to nuclear weapons. The argument went that "civilian" nuclear infrastructure was deeply interconnected with nuclear weapons. They share infrastructure. The existence of a civilian nuclear fuel cycle brings into existence a latent nuclear capability (you may recognize this theme from such films as the United States vs the Islamic Republic). Creating fissile material while avoiding diversion and proliferation requires the secrecy, security, and centralized technocratic control of what activists sometimes called the Atomic State, which they argued was incompatible with liberal democracy. I think these were quite serious arguments, though of course they'd persuade only if you're already bought in on unilateral nuclear disarmament.
Once upon a time, there was also the Soviet propaganda effort in the West. Many of the Cold War reactors could be used to produce not just electricity, but fission material for nuclear warheads. Meaning that if you could persuade big countries to give up nuclear energy for good, you'd also reduce your adversary's capability to build and maintain their nuclear arsenal, or preempt its future acquisition in the first place.
Soviet Union (and later Russia) enacted the propaganda effort against nuclear mainly to prevent the west from ditching their fossil energy. Less western nuclear warheads was secondary goal at best.
Correct, but it still was framing that would be useful to have. If nothing else, because civilian reactors mean there's also a civilian program, an educational program, and the military would like to have that around.
I think both this and their past opposition are actually principled positions; I welcome the change.
Nuclear power was not without accidents and risk, and things are improved, plus there are options for greener nuclear power.
Alas this is a party which cannot in its current form be allowed near power (whatever your position on the Gaza conflict, the "Zionism is racism" motion is grim, callous political insanity), with (for now at least) a leader who is so mindblowingly mediocre, overconfident and overpromoted that really nothing they do will be taken seriously until he is removed.
I concede it is somewhat unfair to compare anyone to Caroline Lucas, who really was one of the finest MPs of her time; a generational talent.
But they have MPs in office who show Polanski to be just a silly lightweight (and one who appears to be unable to take responsibility).
(It still blows my mind that his excuse for why he couldn't vote was that he had to campaign. In St Pancras. Which is literally only an hour and twenty minutes away from Brighton by direct train. And he could have voted online.)
A Jewish drama student LARPing as the leader of an Islamist, pro-Palestinian party standing on a ticket of Israel not existing wasn’t on my 2026 political bingo card.
Why is "Zionism is racism" insanity? Based on the definitions of those words it's a simple true statement, no? And our political system is insane if simple true statements send it over the edge.
Because it is part of a pact that seeks to deny the existence of Israel and “restore historical Palestine” to that region which means Israel can no longer exist.
The Green Party has jumped the shark now that it’s been colonised by these single-issue loons.
> Because it is part of a pact that seeks to deny the existence of Israel
The veracity of the claim that Zionism is racist is independent of any implication you’ve arbitrarily attached to it. I both believe that Zionism is fundamentally racist - like many of the other ethno-nationalist 19th century movements - and that Israel has a right to exist. There’s no reason that both can’t be true.
That historical Palestine needs to be restored (and people like yourself are against that!) is proof that Zionism is racism. Not just of the structural type, but of the ethnic cleansing type. Hence the need for Palestine to be restored.
The problem with this is that you're looking at actually existing Zionism and the history of Zionist leaders' actual statements and deeds. When approaching a nuanced topic like this, it's important to imagine a hypothetical ideal Zionism that hasn't spent the last 78 years engaging in ethnic cleansing.
Netanyahu is actively sliming all of the Arab Israeli as "cheaters" and "stealer".
The opposition could ally with those parties and end Netanyahu corruption and start the Oct 7 investigation that Netanyahu blocks but they don't.
Explain to us, in light of these very evident and present facts, how Zionism isn't racism. Give us an idea what is going to happen if the Arab citizens part of the Israeli population grows more than the current 20% in regards to "self-determination and statehood for the Jewish people in their ancestral homeland".
Explain to me why a British political party needs to take an extreme, polarising position on Israeli politics it has absolutely no influence over, at a cost only of its domestic support.
The entire concept is tinged with antisemitism, it lacks a nuanced understanding in the religious belief in the restoration of Israel, and it encourages very simple, very straightforward reactions like "these people are all children who have no grasp of politics and shouldn't be near power". Which is my position.
Netanyahu is a horror (and a crook).
It doesn't mean that a political party should inject itself into a nearly 150 year old cultural/faith position that has its roots in the experience of antisemitism in Europe and the USA.
It's not that different to having a political platform position that Catholicism isn't true Christianity, or that only Sunni Islam is true Islam. Sensible multi-faith parties seeking electability and a broad power base don't do fucking stupid things like this.
I think a lot of Anti Nuclear Power is based off old designs that weren't as safe and had radioactive byproduct I think newer reactor designs take a lot of bite out of that process. Additionally when you look at what is proposed to happen with Fusion reactors in Virginia in the next couple years it becomes a less popular position to be in opposition.
It's admirable they changed their stance but good Lord they are slow learners...
I've never understood the opposition to nuclear power. Was this a reaction to Chernobyl or did it start earlier?
It was part emotional response to Chernobyl, part is was full on Russian propaganda infiltrating parliaments in Europe.
The leader of Germany that phased out nuclear and made Germany fully reliant on Russia then took a job... at Gazprom. The VP from the Greens responsible took a very high paying job lobbying for foreign Gas firms, too.
It has to be one of the most successful foreign influencing campaigns in history.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerhard_Schr%C3%B6der#Business... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joschka_Fischer#Business_activ...
I oppose nuclear for a very simple reason: there is no way to deal with the long term waste. Not just the small amount of waste from the fuel, but the reactor components.
The waste will burden hundreds of generations for millenia and the reason? Our current consumption
Such greed and disregard for following generations
Climate change is a minor problem in comparison
Third-parties are generally full of eccentrics (remember that the UK is still FPTP, even if they're a multi-party system). Eccentrics typically aren't the "very serious" types looking at tradeoffs.
The large portion of the environmentalist left are degrowthers who literally want people to just live with less, which means "less energy" is actually good. It will never be a politically viable position, but again, we're talking about a party that until recently has never come close to wielding power.
You say "degrowthers who literally want people to just live with less" like it's a bad thing
Why is war never a factor in the nuclear power debate? Like nuclear is great, until you have missiles dropping on your territory. You can ask Ukraine about that. Zaporizhia has been held hostage since the early days of the war. Should the Russians have a manic moment they can make a Chernobyl volume 2 with conventional explosives.
Nuclear is a great peacetime technology, Europe is no longer in peacetime.
The destruction of the Kakhovka Dam flooded over 500 square kilometres and carried a significant death toll, caused major damage to the surrounding area and impacted over a million people.
Besides maybe solar, there is always the potential for harm during war times. Heck, even with solar, cutting off electricity supply to a major urban area can tragically carry a death toll that goes beyond even the few severe power plant disasters we as a species have ever encountered.
Fission is not an outlier here and designing any power plant for resilience is a necessary step, whether in war or peacetimes, whether in a tectonically stable or seismically active area.
A nuclear strike on a larger fission reactor could create an awful result unlike any other power plant. There were some studies during the cold war (something about the effects in West Germanyin the early 1980s, IIRC).
Nuclear ICBMs generally make this a moot point. An advanced enemy can explode a "nuclear reactor" anywhere in your country at any time.
Regarding drones, most reactors are built relatively hardened. For example, they're protected against a 747 flying into it at full speed. So even a drone attack would take an advanced enemy, and they might as well drop a bomb on you.
It was a great peacetime technology during the cold war
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Strange to me this is high on HN. #1 The Greens are a niche party in the UK. #2 this is from Mon 5 Oct.
There is a very very strong pro-nuclear contingent on HN and in tech in general, and most of the tech pro-nuclear support comes from viewing nuclear as environmentally positive compared to alternatives, so I'm not surprised at all to see this. It hits all the right "this is good" receptors, even if UK Greens are a tiny party. (I personally view nuclear as completely infeasible, economically, while also being environmentally friendly, so I've had few allies on any grounds when it comes to public debate on nuclear.)
It's a sad case of "too little too late".
The best time to build up nuclear power was 4 decades ago - when the supply of fossil fuel was obviously fraught, and things like solar and wind power were nonviable.
Whether it makes any sense to push for nuclear power now is unclear. Nuclear was quite expensive even back then - but decades of NIMBYism, "environmental" activism and overregulation have damaged the industrial capability and eroded supply chains to the point that getting a buildout going at scale and on a sane budget and a sensible timetable would be an uphill battle. At the same time, renewables aren't anywhere near as opposed, the economic outlook for solar, wind and grid storage is better than it ever was, and the situation is likely to improve even further.
We're familiar with the Green point of view, your niche parties are like NGOs in the US. I think the larger context might be the conversation about technology we've been having in the US since the atom bomb. Articles about nuclear power, GMO, AI, and other advances will trigger similar interest. The timeliness of this article isn't a factor, it's an interesting event and a chance to broach a few topics.
>The Greens are a niche party in the UK
Are they really?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_U...
Pretty much, especially with their latest mess with “Zionism is racism” entryism, a leader who can’t lead, and a split between those interested in green subjects and rump Corbynites
UK is a First Past the Post system. It doesn't matter what their national polling is, if it's going to result with exactly 0 seats in the parliament.
Whatever info you’re working from is out of date. The Greens currently have 5 MPs: https://members.parliament.uk/parties/commons
The UK Greens have never been less "niche".
There are three Green parties in the UK. There isn't a "UK Green Party" as such. Polanski's is England and Wales.
There are three Green Parties in the UK. The SGP members have had a supply agreement with the ruling SNP in the Scottish Parliament for years. There was even talk of them being in coalition for a while.
They were, but the current popularity of the 2 main parties (in recent times) has led to this or a couple of right wing ones as a popular protest vote.
Because HN loves nuclear power plants aka complicated steam machines.
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Green Party of England and Wales.
Both Scotland and Northern Ireland have their own Green Parties. There is no single UK Green Party.
Between shameless scientific fraud from last century still affecting and harming nuclear policy to this day [0], and masses of idiots being easily influenced and swindled by foreign powers [1] (example specifically about the UK's case), I don't know why any such parties haven't been forcefully disbanded or put in the same category as terrorists, along with other organizations such as "Green"-"peace". They have at large done immeasurable damage to their countries and the world at large, and most of them started out explicitly as being anti-nuclear, that being their only mission for the longest time, only becoming relevant through the most disgusting fearmongering. Most importantly, they've achieved nothing but ensure the continued, worldwide permanent reliance on oil states and the terrorism that derived from it.
0. https://atomicinsights.com/wp-content/uploads/LNT-and-NAS-En...
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campaign_for_Nuclear_Disarmame...
I'm happy they're doing this, and it's good and admirable to see people be able to change their minds on something they once believed so strongly, but this should have happened 30 years ago.
People only "change their mind" when it becomes an existential crisis. And energy security in Europe has reached that stage 10x.
>People only "change their mind" when it becomes an existential crisis.
If only. There's people and parties (not in the UK) who would rather see the rest of the country suffer than admit they were wrong, so they feel compelled to die on that hill and take everyone with them, because defending their principle is more important.
also in the UK
I vaguely remember a quote that said:
“People act reasonably when left no other choice”
It stuck with me.
Nuclear power plants ate quite the opposite of energy security especially with a foreign threat
How?
Unlike fossil fuel power plants, NPPs don't depend on a steady supply of a high volume of costly consumables just to keep running. Reactor fuel loads last months to years, naturally buffering any price shocks or supply chain issues. And you can maintain an "energy security" stockpile of nuclear fuel that would add you even more years of runaway.
To have your nuclear power disrupted, you have to face an adversary that's both capable and willing to hit targets on your soil, and on top of that, is willing to target NPP infrastructure specifically.
A random rogue state lobbing mid-range drones over a strait wouldn't cut it. Neither would a war halfway around the world.
We're talking about Germany shuttering their nuclear power plants despite USA warning them repeatedly that Russia was going to weaponize the Nord Stream gas dependence against them. Which is ultimately exactly what happened.
If Germans don't or didn't want, e.g., nuclear power plants, or fracking, or transmission lines, or ... then they are allowed to decide that way, no?
if the germans want to shoot themselves in the foot they are allowed to do this, yes. what is the point of your comment? it's not even remotely relevant.
I was trying to point out that societies make and are free to make decisions that others don't like or that aren't great for them by some metric - and that there is nothing wrong with that. Why is that not relevant when it comes to energy?
so your point is that it's fine that germany ceeded energy independence and gave power to russia, because they're a country and countries have the 'right' to make bad decisions?
we have the right to criticise countries too right?
If Germans don't want energy independence - you can criticize that but that's how nation states work or is there some UN Charter violation in there, for example?
im still so confused what your point is. it's like talking about the consequences of someone's alcoholism, and someone chiming in "well they have a right to die of the booze if they want" like...ok???
Nuclear power replaced coal in Germany, not gas. A big dependence exists because people heat their homes with gas and lots of industry needs gas, nuclear doesn’t help with either.
Russian gas replaced Germany's own nuclear power. That's where the risk was and why the Nord Stream pipelines were so controversial.
But Germany wanted the cheap gas, so they ignored the risks and Russia ultimately invaded Ukraine.
That is not really the case. Germany certainly wanted cheap gas, but there was also the theory that integrating Russia economically will prevent conflicts. While ultimately a wrong decision, it was not entirely stupid.
But regarding gas, one has to understand that a tiny fraction (15%) of gas is used for electricity and most for heating. So nuclear power is completely irrelevant here.
I also would like people realize that many nuclear plants in Europe and elsewhere still depend on fuel from Russia. So energy dependence is a bit more complex.
It's a bit more complex, I think. When gas imports started from the USSR, nuclear power plants were still being built in Germany, for example. There were gas imports for a long time.
And yet, Germany did quickly stop importing gas from Russia, while various other countries still depend on nuclear fuel from Rosatom.
Which means new nuclear is about the worst thing we can spend our limited resources on since it won't be coming online until the 2040s, and then at a ruinosuly expensive price.
Meanwhile renewables and storage are reshaping our global energy system due to being the cheapest globally scalable energy source in human history.
We also need to keep in mind nuclear supply chains. After 21 sanction packages the EU still haven't sanctioned Russia's nuclear industry.
We're simply too deeply entangled across the entire supply chain: nuclear fuel, enrichment, reprocessing, technological partnerships, reactor maintenance, new construction and more.
TBF, Europe brought it on itself (Germany in particular, pretty much killing their nuclear and industry) by supporting the war against Russia: Cheap gas -> NAAAH! Putin bad! Zelenskiy good, let's blow up the Nordstream -> oh, US gas much expensive? No more "buy one get one"? Fucking idiots. Or maybe very well paid traitors.
And by “the war against Russia,” you meant when Russia violated its treaty and invaded a sovereign country on the EU’s doorstep? That war “against Russia?” What an interesting phrasing you’ve chosen.
And why did this war start? And how many military bases does Russia have, say, around Caribbean? What was Ukraine going to do with Crimea? People burned alive in Odessa? "Russia violated its treaty and invaded a sovereign country" - double standards at their best? USA/Israel being the number 1 terrorist/pedo coalition - nothing? Not even a strongly-worded letter? Fuck off already, the byproduct of brainwashing.
Or more probably, it's imputable to biology and the natural replacement of the "old guard" by adults who didn't grow up during nukes schizophrenia. Or in other words, I doubt that those folks reasoned themselves out of the irrational fear for nuclear energy that they did not reason themselves into.
I'm not sure it's irrational. It's perhaps oversensitive. There are dozens of nuclear power incidents rated at levels of 5+, affecting the wider region.
In the UK, Sellafield was a nightmare. Lots of less serious slip ups and malfunctions punctuated by a few critical incidents, between 1954 and 2003. You might understand why yesterday's Green Party might think it an issue worth pursuing.
"the environment is improved one funeral at a time" -- Planck principle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck%27s_principle
It really does feel a day late and a dollar short for Europe, especially Germany.
This is such a bummer. Russia still has good long term energy plans for Germany. (if you are European this is sarcasm).
Now by selling them uranium!
I believe a lot of uranium comes from Australia?
Definitely risks in the supply chain there, but probably less than Russia?
I bet they are happy about it. Only need to sabotage one big power plant to get chaos.
Or the panic when the next drones appear near a power plant
> Russia still has good long term energy plans for Germany
What do you mean?
There are suspicions that German energy policy was effectively controlled/influenced by Russia in the early 2000s.
E.g the ex chancellor is now paid handsomely https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/23/world/europe/schroder-ger...
I believe more recently there was an expose about some other politicians at that time having links to Russia, although don’t have them to hand right now.
It’s sarcasm. Russia does not have good long term energy plans for Germany.
too little too late
Finally, but useful idiots already caused a lot of damage. Best time for European nuclear power buildout was 30 years ago.
They were never were in control of the government, so it seems a conspiracy theory that the greens somehow did "a lot of damage". I think a conspiracy needed by people who can not deal with the fact that nuclear is simply not economical, and therefor fails on the market.
Second best time is now.
Too little, too late.
There are aspects of many political parties I agree with, but to me, being against Nuclear Power is the largest short sighted items this and a couple of other parties are/were against.
If many countries took the same road as France, the world would be in a much better place. Imagine the energy advances that could have happened if nuclear was supported for the past 50 years.
Or renewables. I remind you that nuclear power is completely economically unviable today because it is the single most expensive way to generate power. Even with Trump rolling back safety regulations, it's still too expensive when solar panels are 10 cents per watt, nuclear is 50, and the amount of backup storage to offset the unreliability does not bridge that gap.
Nuclear is great at replacing gas-fired power stations, which has a few costs that are not included in the price.
Gas is dispatchable, nuclear is not. It’s enormously expensive, and that expense is locked in whether you need the power or not.
We’re already in a situation where we have more power than we need during certain hours of the day in some states/countries, and that’s not even counting the massive, accelerating buildout that will happen between now and the years before new nuclear is built… even it was started today.
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Gas is used as backup in a grid dominated by cheap renewable. High capex sources like nuclear are a poor replacement.
Do you mean kwh? Your per Watt is way off.
Also France is around 7c (euro) per kwh from nuclear generation. If the whole west was all in on nuclear for last 50 years it would have resulted in lower per kwh costs.
What would solar's cost per kWh be? GP means the cost of the asset per peak generation power. 0.1/W seems about right, to an order of magnitude at least.
France has big wind farms too.
and i remind you that this framing is completely misleading outside the world of simulations and calculations.
Nuclear doesn't need to be the only source of electricity generation. In fact, it can be the base on top of which a serious country expands electricity generation with renewable energy.
I will also remind you that there is not a single industrialised economy anywhere on earth that has successfully supplied new electricity growth with only renewable energy. Not one.
> I will also remind you that there is not a single industrialised economy anywhere on earth that has successfully supplied new electricity growth with only renewable energy. Not one.
Nuclear fans across the internet seems to have adopted this talking point recently and none of them have noticed it doesn't make any sense.
What are you even claiming here?
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Wow when nuclear power was the answer why we’re against it, but now nuclear power is too expensive compared with renewables plus solar they are for it.
How about some useful policies like removing planning constraints for grid expansion and solar farms and compulsory wind farms on golf courses owned by foreign billionaires
Nuclear power is not too expensive, it's expense is artificial. Also - renewables can't provide base load energy to replace mos of carbon stuff. You need a powerful base load to support most renewables in the mix
That's what batteries are for
It would be less expensive if every 20 years some idiots wouldn't blow one of them up and render a sizable swath of land uninhabitable by doing something regarded. The cost is in making sure they don't and unfortunately it's probably here to stay.
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> but now nuclear power is too expensive compared with renewables plus solar
Brit here: we need renewables and storage and nuclear.
> compulsory wind farms on golf courses owned by foreign billionaires
We need this x100.
What's your take on why every hyperscaler is getting into nuclear if the economics are actually as you suggest?
Vague non-binding promises of cheap power in 10 years is cheaper than building clean power today.
For existing nuclear, stealing it from the other grid users is cheaper than building clean power today.
Sure, they may all be colluding together in a cynical bid to rob our future.
Or.... the full-system economics of renewables may not actually be as good as advocates claim.
They don’t have to be colluding, just lying.
By the time they build one the kids will be asking what's a hyperscaler?
> ... but now nuclear power is too expensive compared with renewables
It's not.
As far as I'm aware, it indeed is.
Yep, and renewables + batteries are only getting cheaper. Nuclear takes a long time to build. A new plant planned today will be obsolete before construction ends.
It's a protest vote. Anti-fascist eco-fascism isn't a viable basis for the coherent governance of anything larger than an ecovilliage.
That said, it seems neither pragmatism nor ideological coherence is really necessary to hold power these days.
One of the useful policies mentioned in the article is:
> Last year, Adrian Ramsay, then a Green co-leader, criticised government support for Sizewell C. “The money being spent on this nuclear gamble would be far better spent on insulating and retrofitting millions of homes, bringing down energy bills and keeping people warmer and more comfortable,” he said.
Classic negawatt approach, to use Amory Lovins' term.
Seems, though, like most people would rather build impressive infrastructure than improve what's already there. Grid expansion and new energy production development have far more cachet than paying a bunch of people with white vans to go around fixing up houses.
I mean if nuclear fusion ever becomes commercially viable, you'd be nuts not to support it.
You think.. I heard some antinuclear guys opposing fusion because the vessel for fusion reactor would get radioactive, and that is "nuclear waste" (of course, it's not the dangerous, long-term kind).
I've commented before on this, but I don't think it ever becomes financially viable.
Assuming all the physics are completely solved tomorrow;
Private capital can easily get better returns, not to mention sooner returns, doing pretty much anything else.
Public capital requires a very long-term govt spend spanning multiple governments. China could do it, but hard to see a western govt doing it. Plus it would add a decade to the schedule and costs would spiral upwards.
All of which is a huge bet against improvements in grid-level storage.
now the german greens.
It was ultimately a conservative government that was responsible for exiting nuclear in Germany. But also nobody wants nuclear back, not even the industry - as it is too expensive.
Our energy is expensive enough as is, we don't need to spend many billions on expensive nuclear power.
Where in Germany could one build a new nuclear powerplant without noticeable local opposition (or opposition to new power lines)?
Fuck yeah.
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The "Green" part of "Green Party" refers to the colours of Hamas now.
If only
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You can call them a name, or do a little research…
https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/news/ehrc-writes-green-p...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2026/10/30/thousands-qu...
https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/green-party-zio...
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I find it fairly amusing that "green" parties were ever opposed to nuclear power. It was clearly lobbying by fossil fuel energy interests. If we're gonna generate electricity at night without burning coal, oil or gas, we need nuclear. Storing solar and wind overnight is an even more absurd proposition than nuclear power plants. Burning more fossil fuels is even more absurd than nuclear power plants.
This is a bit too cynical. It's impossible to understand the history green parties' opposition to nuclear energy without the context of their opposition to nuclear weapons. The argument went that "civilian" nuclear infrastructure was deeply interconnected with nuclear weapons. They share infrastructure. The existence of a civilian nuclear fuel cycle brings into existence a latent nuclear capability (you may recognize this theme from such films as the United States vs the Islamic Republic). Creating fissile material while avoiding diversion and proliferation requires the secrecy, security, and centralized technocratic control of what activists sometimes called the Atomic State, which they argued was incompatible with liberal democracy. I think these were quite serious arguments, though of course they'd persuade only if you're already bought in on unilateral nuclear disarmament.
Once upon a time, there was also the Soviet propaganda effort in the West. Many of the Cold War reactors could be used to produce not just electricity, but fission material for nuclear warheads. Meaning that if you could persuade big countries to give up nuclear energy for good, you'd also reduce your adversary's capability to build and maintain their nuclear arsenal, or preempt its future acquisition in the first place.
Soviet Union (and later Russia) enacted the propaganda effort against nuclear mainly to prevent the west from ditching their fossil energy. Less western nuclear warheads was secondary goal at best.
Military forces never had any problem running extra reactors to acquire their material.
Correct, but it still was framing that would be useful to have. If nothing else, because civilian reactors mean there's also a civilian program, an educational program, and the military would like to have that around.
In this case, the green is now for Islamism.
Uh huh.
I think both this and their past opposition are actually principled positions; I welcome the change.
Nuclear power was not without accidents and risk, and things are improved, plus there are options for greener nuclear power.
Alas this is a party which cannot in its current form be allowed near power (whatever your position on the Gaza conflict, the "Zionism is racism" motion is grim, callous political insanity), with (for now at least) a leader who is so mindblowingly mediocre, overconfident and overpromoted that really nothing they do will be taken seriously until he is removed.
I don’t really give a shit. The real problem is they put much more attention on Palestine than the UK.
We need the Middle East out of our political system full stop. All of it.
Yeah. I don't agree with their polices, but at least Caroline Lucas (previous leader) was credible. Zack, not so much.
I concede it is somewhat unfair to compare anyone to Caroline Lucas, who really was one of the finest MPs of her time; a generational talent.
But they have MPs in office who show Polanski to be just a silly lightweight (and one who appears to be unable to take responsibility).
(It still blows my mind that his excuse for why he couldn't vote was that he had to campaign. In St Pancras. Which is literally only an hour and twenty minutes away from Brighton by direct train. And he could have voted online.)
A Jewish drama student LARPing as the leader of an Islamist, pro-Palestinian party standing on a ticket of Israel not existing wasn’t on my 2026 political bingo card.
Why is "Zionism is racism" insanity? Based on the definitions of those words it's a simple true statement, no? And our political system is insane if simple true statements send it over the edge.
Because it is part of a pact that seeks to deny the existence of Israel and “restore historical Palestine” to that region which means Israel can no longer exist.
The Green Party has jumped the shark now that it’s been colonised by these single-issue loons.
> Because it is part of a pact that seeks to deny the existence of Israel
The veracity of the claim that Zionism is racist is independent of any implication you’ve arbitrarily attached to it. I both believe that Zionism is fundamentally racist - like many of the other ethno-nationalist 19th century movements - and that Israel has a right to exist. There’s no reason that both can’t be true.
Silly question: so what if it’s racist? Huge swathes of the planet are racist.
“Zionism is racism” is also some kind of tautology masquerading as an argument.
That historical Palestine needs to be restored (and people like yourself are against that!) is proof that Zionism is racism. Not just of the structural type, but of the ethnic cleansing type. Hence the need for Palestine to be restored.
One could make the same argument you just made for “historical Judea” or “historical Canaan” and it would carry as much weight.
Nothing I said indicated I was pro or anti the proposition.
The problem with this is that you're looking at actually existing Zionism and the history of Zionist leaders' actual statements and deeds. When approaching a nuanced topic like this, it's important to imagine a hypothetical ideal Zionism that hasn't spent the last 78 years engaging in ethnic cleansing.
A simple true statement? No.
Netanyahu is actively sliming all of the Arab Israeli as "cheaters" and "stealer".
The opposition could ally with those parties and end Netanyahu corruption and start the Oct 7 investigation that Netanyahu blocks but they don't.
Explain to us, in light of these very evident and present facts, how Zionism isn't racism. Give us an idea what is going to happen if the Arab citizens part of the Israeli population grows more than the current 20% in regards to "self-determination and statehood for the Jewish people in their ancestral homeland".
Explain to me why a British political party needs to take an extreme, polarising position on Israeli politics it has absolutely no influence over, at a cost only of its domestic support.
The entire concept is tinged with antisemitism, it lacks a nuanced understanding in the religious belief in the restoration of Israel, and it encourages very simple, very straightforward reactions like "these people are all children who have no grasp of politics and shouldn't be near power". Which is my position.
Netanyahu is a horror (and a crook).
It doesn't mean that a political party should inject itself into a nearly 150 year old cultural/faith position that has its roots in the experience of antisemitism in Europe and the USA.
It's not that different to having a political platform position that Catholicism isn't true Christianity, or that only Sunni Islam is true Islam. Sensible multi-faith parties seeking electability and a broad power base don't do fucking stupid things like this.