In the UK there's been a large increase as well as they're rock solid for a lower price. Am I odd for not considering one due to security concerns? I just can't wrap my head around buying what is essentially these days a smartphone on wheels from a hostile state that is probably sending data back to China. Car privacy these days is already bad enough.
This would happen everywhere where they shout "free market " from the rooftops would stop import tariffs.looking at Germany and the usa, specifically.
In Spain, they dont do that and adaption and dealerships for Chinese EVs is taking off nicely, I ask every single owner I can if they're happy with the service and the cars and all of them have never been happier. Subjective, yes, but I welcome the Chinese cars and free markets:-)
As usual, it's a debate where I'm not interested in either side. I don't want huge, over-sized, over-luxurious, over-priced American cars. I don't want somehow-even-more-luxurious, tracking hell, iPad hell Chinese cars.
can you explain why is tracking an issue? Google/Android and Apple both do live tracking and Brazilians seems to be fine with using both US made and China made smartphones.
Whats the real argument behind this ludicrous "muh China tracking me to pick up groceries"
Surprisingly I have seen imported BYD Atto at 100% tariffs or so and Olectra buses which are actually BYD buses , probably CKU imported into India. Auto sector employment in India is seriously important as is the need for capturing a fair value even of EVs locally while on the other hand Oil & Gas imports have always been the biggest import bill and Forex drain so there are good incentives to move. It is just they do it slowly and in their own ways and the handful of capital intensive companies who tried getting LFP manufacturing into India failed as China scale cannot be replicated in India due to differing political systems and cultures, even today
Dated take. China and BYD are doing a lot of things right that make this possible. A recent article showing how they're consolidating parts that passes the buck to consumers is a great example as to why they can sell 20% cheaper and still have higher margins.
No it's what happens when smart state intelligently subsidizes to bring down structural costs, while retarded state foolishly subsidizes to keep pork barrel jobs program going as legacy processes fall into uncompetitiveness. We had 30 years of PRC shock evidence now - everything PRC made cheap, remains cheap long after subsidies, because they structurally lower floor vs western competition doesn't.
You mean the countries that still have native automotive industries and an understanding of the strategic value of heavy industry in both economic and martial terms?
How do Chinese owned industrial factories in Brazil differ, apart from being more efficient and able to pivot to new markets better? Which seems like useful properties in a war footing?
Do you want your war munition manufacturers to say "we'd have better short term bonuses if we didn't manufacture what you need but instead just kept manufacturing our old stuff with no regard for the nations future"?
Assuming the blue wave continues for 2 more years, I've been wondering if the Democrats are going to open up America to Chinese EVs as a way to punish Elon for his engagement with the GOP
USA bans the onboard Chinese automotive software for national security reasons, effectively banning Chinese cars. This isn't a partisan political thing, Biden was the one that signed the Secure Equipment Act and Connected Vehicle Restrictions.
For all the talk about data and technology sovereignty in Europe, you would think they would take that more seriously too. Instead Europe is flooded with underpriced Chinese cars that they have no control over.
> Instead Europe is flooded with underpriced Chinese cars that they have no control over.
Please someone fact check that, as far as I know there are import taxes on Chinese EVs, and protectionist measures. The only "loophole" I know is for vehicles built in the EU, which is fine as it employs local workforce.
There's also the 100% tariff to overcome. But I'm sure with a friendlier tax/tariff regime, Chinese companies wouldn't be opposed to bringing 98% complete vehicles from China to the US and then finishing them with American comms equipment.
US car makers can be cheaper too if they put workers in slave-like conditions, even aside the Chinese govt subsidies and investment.
One example from Brazil since that's the topic:
> Brazilian prosecutors have filed a lawsuit accusing electric carmaker BYD of human trafficking and keeping its workers in “slavery-like conditions” in its biggest market outside China.
> The investigation found the Chinese workers were brought to Brazil under false pretences and their visas did not match their jobs.
> Prosecutors said the workers were found working in “slavery-live conditions” and with "minimum comfort and hygiene”, calling them victims of international human trafficking
> The workers were forced to sleep on beds that did not have mattresses and as many as 30 people shared a bathroom, MPT alleged.
What you linked to is of contractors building the plant, not assembly line workers. It's a blurry line and certainly affiliated with BYD, but car assembly itself is moving toward 'dark' factories, populated by robots that are indeed kept in slave-like conditions, unpaid and worked beyond humane shifts.
As a side note, BYD indeed has a lot more workers per car vs a lot of their competitors, but because of the vertical integration, most are assembling upstream parts.
Cheaper but not cheap. US can pay literally 0 and still be substantially more expensive than PRC, labour simply rounding error ($500-$1000) per chassis.
BYD cars are cheaper because China just has the most expertise at building things at scale and because they're making many formerly discrete car parts entire modules, which are cheaper to manufacture.
There's also been plenty of reporting of 'slave like conditions' at Tesla, GM etc.
Can be, but likely aren't to any greater extent than in the West without substantial evidence. And so perhaps it should not be the first reason listed for why it's cheaper when there are perfectly reasonable explanations outside of the constant 'China bad, evil' orientalist shtick that just shows how scared we in the West are of actual competition, accustomed to exploiting the world for half a millennia.
BYD in China shows off their factory towns for how wonderful the workers live. Its a modern day Hershey. It might be more of a Brazil issue than a BYD issue.
Exactly the countries where brand loyalty has a culture status. If you let go of that, there are only a few sensible economic options left, BYD high on that list.
Funny because I live in Hungary, the country with the highest VAT in EU (27%), and BYD is not the cheapest at all. Neither in the EV and ICE (hybrid) category
What kind of vehicles are people replacing with BYDs? I always assumed Brazilians drove mostly "legacy" VW or Nissans, but I looked at VW's Brazilian website and you all seem to have most of the same vehicles that are available in Europe and North America, including the ID.4!
> How are they being received generally in Brazil?
Very well. Not only BYD but also other brands like GWM and Geely.
> What kind of vehicles are people replacing with BYDs?
Combustion cars with the same price, they are not replacing other electrical vehicles because the Chinese brands are way cheaper yet they are good cars.
> I always assumed Brazilians drove mostly "legacy" VW or Nissans
Nowadays we have many models from different brands.
In the past the fleet was basically VW, Ford, Chevrolet and Fiat. In the late 90s and early 2000s the Japanesne (Honda, Toyota and Nissan) and French (Renault, Citroën, Peugeot) became popular, and then Hyundai also became a success here. Recently, the Chinese brands are becoming more popular, especially Chery and the ones that I mentioned before.
> including the ID.4
But I never saw it here, even though VW is a very popular brand here.
Hence my surprise to even see it for sale in Brazil and the reason I brought it up. After looking at their lineup, it seem like VW has moved away from their historical approach of providing cheaper, older vehicles in the Brazilian market.
German and American cars who aren't getting subsidized by the government, in fact they actually have to pay taxes. In addition to the fact that China is letting companies destroy it's environment.
Nowadays I doubt that the US government is any better than China's in letting companies destroy the environment.
Moreover, I always wonder how Americans accuse China of subsidizing its industries, while I never hear about any serious investment done by any big US company that is not conditioned by huge tax reductions.
All the kinds of fiscal facilities that the big US companies receive from the state or federal governments would be strictly forbidden in most places of Europe, as being a form of state help that distorts competition.
some models also charge much faster, and go further than Western alternatives
cheap, fast, good, its a rare moment to pick all three and the market is
most reservations about EVs are based on range anxiety, charging time and cost. only people with a certain level of advantage will pay to experience inconvenience, and that issue disintegrates at a certain threshold for a much broader population
To be clear, that's CLTC range, so closer to ~400'ish miles EPA. Still, very good. I think there are a variety of reasons why US manufacturers are sticking closer to 300mi (e.g. availability of battery materials), but it's improving and hopefully that'll continue.
I'm kind of torn myself. Although I'd like more range, 300 does get me where I'm going, and performance vehicles want less weight, not more.
Supply line voltage is irrelevant. The car and charger negotiate and adjust power and voltage dynamically.
Charging stations typically also have on-site battery storage to have peak charging power that exceeds grid supply (and also because energy arbitrage is profitable).
Currently the fastest chargers use 1000 V (which requires silicon carbide MOSFETs with rated voltages of at least 1400 V or silicon IGBTs with rated voltages of at least 1500 V).
There are international standards for 1000 V and 800 V charging, but I have no idea whether they are allowed in NA.
As another poster has already said, like in USB chargers, the charging voltage is negotiated with the car and the old cars are charged slowly, at a low enough voltage for them.
For now, most of these fast chargers have been installed in China, but there are plans to install them also in Europe.
There are also a lot of inconveniences about petrol cars, like the volatility of oil prices, uncertain future emission regulations, higher mechanical complexity and hence maintenance costs, lower performance and more noise.
With the Republicans thrown out enmass last night maybe we can go back to the full switch over to becoming an electro state again, and leave this oil and gas bullshit in the past. I’m still not OK with opening our doors to BYD, but I want our own manufacturers to come up to speed and to build out massive charging infrastructure.
The irony of course is that Trump had a mandate to inflict some tariff pain in the name of rebuilding American manufacturing, and managed to completely spaff that up the wall with non-strategic and idiotic tariffs on friends and neighbours.
In the UK there's been a large increase as well as they're rock solid for a lower price. Am I odd for not considering one due to security concerns? I just can't wrap my head around buying what is essentially these days a smartphone on wheels from a hostile state that is probably sending data back to China. Car privacy these days is already bad enough.
USA under Biden banned Chinese cars for exactly those reasons.
https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documents/fact-sheet-safegua...
This would happen everywhere where they shout "free market " from the rooftops would stop import tariffs.looking at Germany and the usa, specifically.
In Spain, they dont do that and adaption and dealerships for Chinese EVs is taking off nicely, I ask every single owner I can if they're happy with the service and the cars and all of them have never been happier. Subjective, yes, but I welcome the Chinese cars and free markets:-)
[delayed]
As usual, it's a debate where I'm not interested in either side. I don't want huge, over-sized, over-luxurious, over-priced American cars. I don't want somehow-even-more-luxurious, tracking hell, iPad hell Chinese cars.
can you explain why is tracking an issue? Google/Android and Apple both do live tracking and Brazilians seems to be fine with using both US made and China made smartphones.
Whats the real argument behind this ludicrous "muh China tracking me to pick up groceries"
BYD taking over most of the world aside from the United States, Korea, Germany and Japan.
You forgot India.
The thing all these countries have in common is their own Automobile sector which is a huge part of the economy that they need to protect.
Surprisingly I have seen imported BYD Atto at 100% tariffs or so and Olectra buses which are actually BYD buses , probably CKU imported into India. Auto sector employment in India is seriously important as is the need for capturing a fair value even of EVs locally while on the other hand Oil & Gas imports have always been the biggest import bill and Forex drain so there are good incentives to move. It is just they do it slowly and in their own ways and the handful of capital intensive companies who tried getting LFP manufacturing into India failed as China scale cannot be replicated in India due to differing political systems and cultures, even today
That’s what happens when the state intentionally heavily subsidized an industry to destroy existing competition
Dated take. China and BYD are doing a lot of things right that make this possible. A recent article showing how they're consolidating parts that passes the buck to consumers is a great example as to why they can sell 20% cheaper and still have higher margins.
Yes, but we're not talking about GM right now
Yeah we can see that with Anthropic and OpenAI.
No it's what happens when smart state intelligently subsidizes to bring down structural costs, while retarded state foolishly subsidizes to keep pork barrel jobs program going as legacy processes fall into uncompetitiveness. We had 30 years of PRC shock evidence now - everything PRC made cheap, remains cheap long after subsidies, because they structurally lower floor vs western competition doesn't.
"They subsidize their industries. We protect local jobs." Totally different things.
Germany is being taken over, too. Perhaps slower than other markets but sales of Chinese cars are booming.
You mean the countries that still have native automotive industries and an understanding of the strategic value of heavy industry in both economic and martial terms?
How do Chinese owned industrial factories in Brazil differ, apart from being more efficient and able to pivot to new markets better? Which seems like useful properties in a war footing?
Do you want your war munition manufacturers to say "we'd have better short term bonuses if we didn't manufacture what you need but instead just kept manufacturing our old stuff with no regard for the nations future"?
Assuming the blue wave continues for 2 more years, I've been wondering if the Democrats are going to open up America to Chinese EVs as a way to punish Elon for his engagement with the GOP
No they won’t as they have auto unions to protect
USA bans the onboard Chinese automotive software for national security reasons, effectively banning Chinese cars. This isn't a partisan political thing, Biden was the one that signed the Secure Equipment Act and Connected Vehicle Restrictions.
https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documents/fact-sheet-safegua...
For all the talk about data and technology sovereignty in Europe, you would think they would take that more seriously too. Instead Europe is flooded with underpriced Chinese cars that they have no control over.
> Instead Europe is flooded with underpriced Chinese cars that they have no control over.
Please someone fact check that, as far as I know there are import taxes on Chinese EVs, and protectionist measures. The only "loophole" I know is for vehicles built in the EU, which is fine as it employs local workforce.
There's also the 100% tariff to overcome. But I'm sure with a friendlier tax/tariff regime, Chinese companies wouldn't be opposed to bringing 98% complete vehicles from China to the US and then finishing them with American comms equipment.
they wouldn't mind standing up factories and importing the parts for assembly.
US car makers can be cheaper too if they put workers in slave-like conditions, even aside the Chinese govt subsidies and investment.
One example from Brazil since that's the topic:
> Brazilian prosecutors have filed a lawsuit accusing electric carmaker BYD of human trafficking and keeping its workers in “slavery-like conditions” in its biggest market outside China.
> The investigation found the Chinese workers were brought to Brazil under false pretences and their visas did not match their jobs.
> Prosecutors said the workers were found working in “slavery-live conditions” and with "minimum comfort and hygiene”, calling them victims of international human trafficking
> The workers were forced to sleep on beds that did not have mattresses and as many as 30 people shared a bathroom, MPT alleged.
https://www.independent.co.uk/asia/china/byd-china-ev-sued-b...
What you linked to is of contractors building the plant, not assembly line workers. It's a blurry line and certainly affiliated with BYD, but car assembly itself is moving toward 'dark' factories, populated by robots that are indeed kept in slave-like conditions, unpaid and worked beyond humane shifts.
As a side note, BYD indeed has a lot more workers per car vs a lot of their competitors, but because of the vertical integration, most are assembling upstream parts.
Cheaper but not cheap. US can pay literally 0 and still be substantially more expensive than PRC, labour simply rounding error ($500-$1000) per chassis.
BYD cars are cheaper because China just has the most expertise at building things at scale and because they're making many formerly discrete car parts entire modules, which are cheaper to manufacture.
There's also been plenty of reporting of 'slave like conditions' at Tesla, GM etc.
I mean, both can be true?
Can be, but likely aren't to any greater extent than in the West without substantial evidence. And so perhaps it should not be the first reason listed for why it's cheaper when there are perfectly reasonable explanations outside of the constant 'China bad, evil' orientalist shtick that just shows how scared we in the West are of actual competition, accustomed to exploiting the world for half a millennia.
BYD in China shows off their factory towns for how wonderful the workers live. Its a modern day Hershey. It might be more of a Brazil issue than a BYD issue.
Good ol’ propaganda?
wjy is that your reflex? good ol' propaganda.
Have you ever seen warehouses in the US or construction projects with only Mexicans. Not so much different to what you describe.
Exactly the countries where brand loyalty has a culture status. If you let go of that, there are only a few sensible economic options left, BYD high on that list.
who would have thought people would flock to less costly alternatives (I'm brazilian and have tons of friends that have bought BYD models recently)
Funny because I live in Hungary, the country with the highest VAT in EU (27%), and BYD is not the cheapest at all. Neither in the EV and ICE (hybrid) category
How are they being received generally in Brazil?
What kind of vehicles are people replacing with BYDs? I always assumed Brazilians drove mostly "legacy" VW or Nissans, but I looked at VW's Brazilian website and you all seem to have most of the same vehicles that are available in Europe and North America, including the ID.4!
> How are they being received generally in Brazil?
Very well. Not only BYD but also other brands like GWM and Geely.
> What kind of vehicles are people replacing with BYDs?
Combustion cars with the same price, they are not replacing other electrical vehicles because the Chinese brands are way cheaper yet they are good cars.
> I always assumed Brazilians drove mostly "legacy" VW or Nissans
Nowadays we have many models from different brands.
In the past the fleet was basically VW, Ford, Chevrolet and Fiat. In the late 90s and early 2000s the Japanesne (Honda, Toyota and Nissan) and French (Renault, Citroën, Peugeot) became popular, and then Hyundai also became a success here. Recently, the Chinese brands are becoming more popular, especially Chery and the ones that I mentioned before.
> including the ID.4
But I never saw it here, even though VW is a very popular brand here.
Not OP but also a brazilian with friends that bought BYDs, the ones I talked to about it really like it.
I'd say around 60% of the Ubers I get are BYDs and I'm glad when it's one because that means it's a newer car and it's very comfortable.
A lot of Uber Black cars in São Paulo are BYD ones, so I think it is creating a brand of “good quality” cars around here
Which doesn't mean most people can afford them - I live in Europe and I've yet to see an ID.4 myself.
Hence my surprise to even see it for sale in Brazil and the reason I brought it up. After looking at their lineup, it seem like VW has moved away from their historical approach of providing cheaper, older vehicles in the Brazilian market.
what are the high cost ones?
German and American cars who aren't getting subsidized by the government, in fact they actually have to pay taxes. In addition to the fact that China is letting companies destroy it's environment.
Nowadays I doubt that the US government is any better than China's in letting companies destroy the environment.
Moreover, I always wonder how Americans accuse China of subsidizing its industries, while I never hear about any serious investment done by any big US company that is not conditioned by huge tax reductions.
All the kinds of fiscal facilities that the big US companies receive from the state or federal governments would be strictly forbidden in most places of Europe, as being a form of state help that distorts competition.
All big companies in the US and Europe are subsidized. Indirectly or directly. But there no exceptions.
some models also charge much faster, and go further than Western alternatives
cheap, fast, good, its a rare moment to pick all three and the market is
most reservations about EVs are based on range anxiety, charging time and cost. only people with a certain level of advantage will pay to experience inconvenience, and that issue disintegrates at a certain threshold for a much broader population
For reference, the new BYD Dahan RWD model has a listed range of 626 miles and claims 'flash' charging of 10% to 97% in 9 minutes.
To be clear, that's CLTC range, so closer to ~400'ish miles EPA. Still, very good. I think there are a variety of reasons why US manufacturers are sticking closer to 300mi (e.g. availability of battery materials), but it's improving and hopefully that'll continue.
I'm kind of torn myself. Although I'd like more range, 300 does get me where I'm going, and performance vehicles want less weight, not more.
Are those chargers available in NA? Wouldn't they use higher line voltages than are currently permitted?
Supply line voltage is irrelevant. The car and charger negotiate and adjust power and voltage dynamically.
Charging stations typically also have on-site battery storage to have peak charging power that exceeds grid supply (and also because energy arbitrage is profitable).
Currently the fastest chargers use 1000 V (which requires silicon carbide MOSFETs with rated voltages of at least 1400 V or silicon IGBTs with rated voltages of at least 1500 V).
There are international standards for 1000 V and 800 V charging, but I have no idea whether they are allowed in NA.
As another poster has already said, like in USB chargers, the charging voltage is negotiated with the car and the old cars are charged slowly, at a low enough voltage for them.
For now, most of these fast chargers have been installed in China, but there are plans to install them also in Europe.
There are also a lot of inconveniences about petrol cars, like the volatility of oil prices, uncertain future emission regulations, higher mechanical complexity and hence maintenance costs, lower performance and more noise.
With the Republicans thrown out enmass last night maybe we can go back to the full switch over to becoming an electro state again, and leave this oil and gas bullshit in the past. I’m still not OK with opening our doors to BYD, but I want our own manufacturers to come up to speed and to build out massive charging infrastructure.
The irony of course is that Trump had a mandate to inflict some tariff pain in the name of rebuilding American manufacturing, and managed to completely spaff that up the wall with non-strategic and idiotic tariffs on friends and neighbours.